Initial DAL pilot deal details

[General Lee]

TBKane,


Yeah, that is what one of the duty officers said supposedly. I know that you are dissapointed, and so am I. If there was a Chap 11, it might have taken even longer. With all of the retirements coming up, hopefully it won't take that long.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[michael707767]

yeah, that is what one of the duty officers said supposedly. I know that you are dissapointed, and so am I. If there was a Chap 11, it might have taken even longer. With all of the retirements coming up, hopefully it won't take that long.

I spoke with a duty officer today and he said the furlough clause was gone, the recall will continue but instead of having to have every recalled by 06, it had been pushed back to 08. Sorry.
Michael

 

[michael707767]

So I'm guessing this DAL block hours-for-DCI 700's voids the 25 new 200's for ASA, or is this after the fact, or do we know yet?

The MEC officer I talked too said that for the most part, new RJ70s will be instead of RJ50s, so it will not mean any additional jets, just 70s instead of 50s. Further, he said Delta management hinted that most of them would go to CHQ.

 

[tbkane]

Wonderful 2+ more years out of work and DCI gets unlimited 70 seaters. No wonder they don't have to call us back. Why would they, when they now have carte blanch to replace us. This TA stinks, as if a 32% paycut was not enough I was at least happy with that now I get to take it for two more years.

 

[michael707767]

Wonderful 2+ more years out of work and DCI gets unlimited 70 seaters. No wonder they don't have to call us back. Why would they, when they now have carte blanch to replace us. This TA stinks, as if a 32% paycut was not enough I was at least happy with that now I get to take it for two more years.

For the record, its not unlimted 70 seaters (though it may as well be). One new RJ70 for every 10,000 block hour increase, not to exceed 150 RJ70s.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

So I'm guessing this DAL block hours-for-DCI 700's voids the 25 new 200's for ASA, or is this after the fact, or do we know yet?

Nothing's voided, those jets will be 50 seaters. I seriously doubt Bombardier could come up with 70 seaters out of the blue for delivery starting in a few months. It is possible that something will be arranged to delay delivery in hopes of converting those orders when the scope allows. 70 seaters are definitely a better product. Hopefully Delta will buy some nice 737-800's, my personal favorite; or the new 7E7. That would be nice.

 

[General Lee]

Michael707,


Did you say CHQ would get the 70 seaters? Why? Because they have the cash?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[asarjfo]

Michael707,


Did you say CHQ would get the 70 seaters? Why? Because they have the cash?


Bye Bye--General Lee

Probably because their costs are less than ASA/Comair....just a guess.

 

[michael707767]

Probably because their costs are less than ASA/Comair....just a guess.

Bingo. I was told bottom line is CHQ is lower cost.

 

[dtfl]

2008?

So the 2008 means the madatory recall is no longer complete by 2006 but 2008? Faster depending upon growth but the company is only bound to 08?
And I have never dealt with a PBS - any details from the Express days?
I guess it's all a moot point. I think I might be finding another career and giving Delta it's **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** job back.

 

[tbkane]

I wish I could have said it better but I can't so I agree.

 

[NuGuy]

Not necessarily, NWA has it and the MEC has A LOT of control over the parameters - I've been told they like it.

Sandman, you are correct. At NWA, we use a PBS system completely unlike the systems that DAL, Comair and I think AWA tried.

Instead of using a limited "weighted" system, which limits your direct control and instead allows you to provide a "weight" to certain parameters in the vain hope something decent winds up on your line, the NWA system allows the pilots direct control over the trips and trip parameters, as well as the credit window and days off, in addition to allowing multiple bidding strategies (including commute setup).

The great thing about the system is that you don't have to settle for "half a glass". If one bid group fails to award you a complete schedule, it moves on to the next, where you can try something else. With the amount of bid lines allowed, you can often try 20-25 bid groups.

You are also correct in saying the MEC and the Computer Bidding Committee have alot of power. They can pull the plug on it at any time...but it has been in place at NWA since 1997-8, and has been fleetwide (except reserve) since around 2000. Blockholders report over 95% bid satisfaction. It has improved the junior pilots lives immensely.

Nu

 

[~~~^~~~]

ASA could ( if allowed under scope ) convert the current 25 RFP airplanes to -700's, but it has to be done almost immediately. ASA has arranged 100% financing for these airplanes and is poised to execute the transaction, if allowed to do so. Source, Skip Barnette a week ago at a Captain Leadership class.

CHQ costs are low, but probably not as low as ASA on the CRJ-700. ASA has the infastructure in place to support the airplane at no additional cost compared to the -200's. There is a reason why ASA got the larger share of the RFP aircraft, as well as offers to do the MCO flying ( which we turned down). There is also the issue of labor peace at ASA. CRJ-700's would really anger a group of pilots who are in full blown section 6 negotiations.

If CHQ gets the CRJ700 under DCI I would strongly suspect ALPA's influence under a jets for jobs program, similar to what is going on at Northwest. Lets not go there....

In any event, capacity at ASA will fuel mainline's growth and get the furloughs back faster. After all when I hired in the percentage of passengers getting off my airplane and on to Delta's was 80%. Today that number is 82%. We are being used to feed mainline - the more the better. Further, the -700 is a tool that can be deployed to combat AAI, US Air and the other competitors. The -200 probably is not a money maker for Delta in that role.

~~~^~~~

 

[tbkane]

Finns,

I agree in theory about the feed, but the ability to fly 70 seaters would hamper the call back as they will get rid of 737-200 and probabaly replace them with 70's. This is my opinion only based on nothing I have heard, but ASA and Comair have grown gangbusters while I have been on furlough.

This seems to me a way that Delta could continue to outsource mainline flying even though they will probably have mass retirements. I hope your right about it getting us back faster, but I doubt it from what I have heard today.

The only shining star is that maybe just maybe the DoJet deal will help out Skyway and help Delta revamp where needed.

 

[TonyC]

Where did you get the 2008 thing for all furloughs to be returned??? I thought we were not going to pay more than anyone else??? If I am not back till 2008 that is seven years with no pay. That is a lot of money to give up. General I hope your wrong as I can't seem to get into the ALPA website.


TK+0

It must make you feel good to know that at least retirees will have jobs.

 

[NDM]

As far as CHQ Operating Costs, I have them here for you:
For 2004:
Total CASM: 10.42
Excl. Fuel: 8.3
Of important note (comparing Embraer vs. Canadair)
CASM: 2.76 for Aircraft leases/payments, engine rent, mtc, and repair

If someone could provide ASA or Comair's numbers I would appreciate it.

I know everyone likes to say it is because of our Pilot Wages, but I think it could be more in tune with aircraft associated costs. By comparing a $17 Million 135/145 and $25 Million 170 to the associated CRJ-200 and -700 cost. Multiply this by 50 aircraft and you could have one heck of a difference with interest.

Delta might be interested in CHQ or other to fly those aircraft, because if they have ASA or Comair fly them then Delta has to Bank role the aircraft, which financially might not be as feasible as some outside feeder (a la NWA new T/A).

Another interesting note is that Wages aside, CHQ has a much younger workforce curve as ASA and Comair, which by pay on longevity would in effect create a lower cost per ASM for wages (like Southwest). I could not find a separate Pilot only wage and benefit CASM to post on here to compare.

On another note, Delta Mainline Execs were in Indy crawling all over one the new 170's we have for United 2 weeks ago. I was there for slide training, and one of the aircraft was "busy" for their showing.

Maybe I read the tone wrong of one of the previous posts about operating costs, and I was just hoping we could clear it up. Either way, I wish the Delta, Comair, and ASA people the best. I have friends at all places and want to see them grow as well.

Dan

 

[General Lee]

Tony C,


Come on now. Since we know that many will leave Nov 1st or Dec 1st, having 500 Captains leave all at once would ground the widebodies and be terrible for the airline. That could not happen, and those retired guys will only stay as long as they have to to have somebody junior trained. Also, the recalls are not just stopping, they are slowing down, and many of those furloughed early have moved on to Jetblue etc, so the recalls may move swiftly.


TBKANE,

I know you are pi$$ed to say the least. I personally hope you are back a lot sooner than 2008. The 70 seat RJs will not replace the 100 seater (737-200), and they can only get more 70 seaters if mainline grows. If we contract, they will not get as many. With our credit ratings slowly rising, it will be easier to get some type of financing to eventually replace the 737-200s, and I have heard a myriad of different airplanes that could take their place---like the 736, 737-700, A318, EMB-190, and Space Shuttle. Dean Bloom, the sys chief pilot, stated the 737-700 would be a perfect "Shuttle Aircraft" (For the NYC Shuttle?). I don't know why you would use a long range aircraft on the Shuttle, but who knows? I bet it could be something that we already have sims for and are training on--like the 737-700 or -600. But, this is all moot if we still file for bankruptcy or don't approve this TA. It really is all up in the air----literally.


Fins,

I don't know about how many 70 seaters Delta will take, and I don't know who will get them.....Also, I thought Skywest had lower costs also? Could they get some?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Ace757]

Why wouldn't DAL use CHQ's EMB 170's? No one said that the 70 seaters had to be CRJ's

 

[TonyC]

Tony C,


Come on now. Since we know that many will leave Nov 1st or Dec 1st, having 500 Captains leave all at once would ground the widebodies and be terrible for the airline. That could not happen, and those retired guys will only stay as long as they have to to have somebody junior trained. Also, the recalls are not just stopping, they are slowing down, and many of those furloughed early have moved on to Jetblue etc, so the recalls may move swiftly.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Aw, General Lee, come on now.

You and I both know the mass exodus of Captains could be halted with an assurance from the company that their retirement would be protected. There was no need to weaken the furlough protection, and there was no need to employ non-Delta pilots to fly Delta airplanes while Delta pilots remain on furlough.

You just can't stand there with a straight face after having voted for that and apologize to a furloughee for another 2 years of unemployment. It's disingenuous.

There were several ways to address the problem of wideboy captain retirements, and you picked a lousy one. In the process, you attacked the furloughees.

Let me ask you a question. What would you think about this scheme? Every time a widebody Captain decides to retire, you lock in his retirement while he continues to work. Immediately you recall the next furloughee in line and send him to widebody Captain school. The day he finishes IOE in the left seat of the widebody, the retired Captain is finished - - done - - hasta la vista. See, there you have no widebodies parked - - problem solved.


Not fair?


Neither is the TA you voted for.

Don't pretend to feel sorry for furloughees.

 

[Ganja60Heavy]

best of luck to all furloughees. this sux.