Initial DAL pilot deal details

[General Lee]

Tony C,


Simmer down now, ya hear? You are wrong on many fronts. First of all, I have been an advocate for our furloughs since they were furloughed. If you didn't know that, then you have NOT BEEN PAYING ATTENTION. I have been doing whatever I can to try to get them hired at DCI temporarily, I have stressed the importance of insuring their prompt return, and even TBKANE knows that. Don't make me look like the bad guy here, it makes you look stupid. Ask Fins and all of the other people on this board. You are wrong and I have always thought of them FIRST.


Next, maybe you think the company will just tell the retirees that everything will be fine, but here are some reasons guys WILL JUMP SHIP SOON. ( I got this off of our union board):


1)FAE will be officially maxed out with no possibility of any increase for any pilot who is now age 52 or over. (5 year no-raise contract plus 36 consecutive month requirement.)
2)Accrual of retirement longevity "frozen". No additional "years of service" credited for working past December 1st.
3)32.5% base pay cut.
4)Work rules/scheduling/quality of life issues.
5)December retirees will be the last group to get bank/vacation/bow wave payouts at the old, higher rates.
6)Continued threat of bankruptcy with total loss of lump sum.

The list goes on. And we haven't even seen the TA.
NOV/DEC retirements may EXCEED 500.



That cannot be ignored, and we would have to park planes if everyone left and there were no widebody captains, which would just exacorbate our problems. Grinstein could see this coming, and he threatened to file Chap 11 and he could have easily threatened in court to at least stop the lump sum process (not exactly take the lump sums away, but stop the dissemination (SP?)). This last TA ensured the senior guys that they could LEAVE and keep their hard earned lump sums, while keeping the airplanes flying TEMPORARILY. Had we filed for Chap 11 October 1st, more of the pilots would not have had the option to leave, resulting in MORE FURLOUGHS because less would be able to leave.(Can't just retire and then lose your lump sum--so they would have stayed)


I never said I liked the fact that this TA might keep TBKANE out longer. I don't like that at all. But, look at the alternatives. If we do file Chap 11, other things may happen that could make things worse. I have many friends at United and USAir that tell me that we MUST stay out of Chap 11---it was the worst thing that could happen to them. Have the scare tactics worked? Probably, but they were from my own friends. The recalls were not stopped, they were slowed down, and that doesn't help the guys like TBKANE at the bottom. Hopefully a lot of guys have moved on that were furloughed, and TBKANE comes back sooner. I will not forget him, and I haven't over the last 3 years.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FDJ2]

On another note, Delta Mainline Execs were in Indy crawling all over one the new 170's we have for United 2 weeks ago. I was there for slide training, and one of the aircraft was "busy" for their showing.

Dan, I'm sure that Chq will continue to see growth at DCI. It would not surprise me to see an RFP for any 70 seaters. However, unless the definition of permitted 70 seaters has changed, the E170 would still not be allowed to be outsourced since it has a certificated capacity of over 70 seats. If managment was crawling all over it, I suspect they were more interested in what a E190/195 interior might look like in comparison to an A319 or 737-600/700.

 

[dtfl]

Well General, I am above TBKane. Well, actually everyone is - sorry TBKane - you gotta smile with me on that one - trust me if you and I ever get back there will be a lot of beer flowing at your class party! Anway....I see this TA and I think...2-3 more years out of work (I realize there will be many retirements, etc- but the company can work your a$$ off vs calling me back), a carte blanche check for the company to furlough us at anytime, and worse work rules. I think....this smells and tastes like ____.
I guess we need more info..but I must say - yesterday I was hopeful. Tonight? Not so much. See - 500 pilot's retiring gives me no hope. Why? Half or more will come right back and we will stay on the street. Even if ALL of them put their feet up and started drinking -the new cap would absorb their loss. The expansion....RJs? Yeah that helps us. Wasn't there a rumor about getting rid of some planes in the next 2-3 years? There goes more furloughs. I dunno..I just don't see a light at the end of this tunnel..unless you are a regular line holder - then you secured your future.
Again -any info on the Delta Express bidding system? I was on the 727 so I used the normal system - never flew express.

 

[General Lee]

dtfl,


I did my year of duty at Express, and I didn't mind PBS, primarily because everyone was always leaving and the more senior you got, the better your schedule. The basic deal was that you assigned a certain amount of points to things that you wanted, like weekends off, and if you were senior--you got it. My best advice to anyone using PBS, stay senior on your aircraft, especially if you commute. If you are junior and commute, it will be tough.

As far as you and TBKANE coming back, I hope both of you come back ASAP. We may have a flood of retirements, and that will help. Delta may have no other choice but to call you guys back soon and then start hiring. (No joke)



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[dtfl]

So how would this PBS be worse than getting a reserve line on a 727? Of course, we had so many older guys sicking out I sat 3 days of reserve (I personally do not mind. I had a car up in ATL and many FA friends )
So - just curious. I would commute from Pcola or Fort Walton - 45 min flight. I can take mil leave during the week also to fly.
I appreciate your optimism. Really..and your info. But...I'm not so sure about Delta anymore. And not all of us are at JB. I applied. Never heard crap. I got calls from almost every major back in 01. Now, I am not sure what JB is looking for. Maybe it's that FURLOUGHED FROM DELTA stamp on my forehead. FedEx won't speak to a furloughee...

 

[NDM]

I agree with what the General is saying in possibly a separate context.

Hypothetically, if a company could cause a surge in retirements (the highest paid longevity pilots), they would have to bring back or hire low longevity pilots which with it's new five year pay freeze (other than longevity) raise T/A would dramatically lower their CASM.

By doing this you could dramatically alter the high-low longevity curve of the pilot group. It would e in Delta's best interests to train furloughees as fast as possible with these new retirements. And with a 6% increase in flights that would increase that benefit with utilization exponentially.

So, in the long run (2 years by Airline Management terms) it would best suit the Delta to force as many retirements as possible, while not hurting their ability to maintain the flight schedule, and then train furloughees and possibly new hires to replace those pilots as everyone climbs the ladder.

Just my opinion though.

Dan

 

[dtfl]

Dan I see your point. Create a Jet Blue scenario. Lower the seniority - then by the time these folks (us) are senior - the overall pay and retirement will be much lower.
Makes sense. So that means it is not the case.

 

[General Lee]

dtfl,


I have to be optimistic, or I would be crying in the corner. I don't believe everything I hear, but I think we don't have many options, and the "hey dudes, let's go to Chap 11 and see what happens...." argument is STUPID. I have heard from very close friends that it SUCKS, and they are in Chap 11 right now. We had three great years of great pay (those who weren't furloughed....) and now we will have a mass exodus---bringing back the furloughed eventually. The pay may not be as great, but just look at our balance sheet. Could we get better in court? I doubt it. We have debt and we also have a plan to expand after we get the costs down. There isn't much more we can do. We are backed into a corner and believe it or not, if the individual hasn't over extended himself financially like many deltoids have, they shouldn't be so worried. I can survive on 32.5% less, and so should everyone else----unless they haven't been paying attention for the last 3 years. I want you and TBKANE back soon, I really do. The day TBKANE comes back should be a company holiday. We will have a future here, and the pay may eventually climb again, but to say it should be there now is just wrong. It is called simple economics. I just don't think Leo and his boys have hidden $5 billion in cash somewhere that will just pop up when this is over. We needed to take some cuts---it was just obvious. This is still a great job, and it will be for you too when you come back-----hopefully soon.



Bye Bye ---General Lee

 

[dtfl]

General - I can survive on MUUUUUCH less than 32.5% off of Delta pilot's pay
TRUST me. It would be a pay RAISE. Now it would - I did 2 years of mobilized active duty and the pay was great - and I socked a lot away - but that 2 years, although I am proud to serve and get some da&n payback - REALLY sucked.
So....I understand a lot of concessions...but....I'm very skeptical. That is all I can say.

 

[NDM]

dtfl

It does make sense, and it could get the furloughees on the property faster and possibly new hires. However, I will be careful so as not to imply anything about taking pay cuts for growth

I think the Delta pilots fought a hard fight, and they will be back to fight another day. And, I do see some ingenius work with the Retirement scenarios done by ALPA (did I say that?). All in all I hope to be asking you for a jumpseat sometime in the future.

Dan

 

[KingAirKiddo]

dtfl

It does make sense, and it could get the furloughees on the property faster and possibly new hires. However, I will be careful so as not to imply anything about taking pay cuts for growth

I think the Delta pilots fought a hard fight, and they will be back to fight another day. And, I do see some ingenius work with the Retirement scenarios done by ALPA (did I say that?). All in all I hope to be asking you for a jumpseat sometime in the future.

Dan

Live to fight another day--'nuff said.

 

[bvt1151]

Bingo. I was told bottom line is CHQ is lower cost.

You were told incorrectly. Straight from Fred B's mouth, Comair is the cheapest alternative to Delta.

 

[asarjfo]

You were told incorrectly. Straight from Fred B's mouth, Comair is the cheapest alternative to Delta.

Then why didn't Comair get any of the RJ's allocated to DCI for 2005? I am not trying to be a smart a$$, just trying to understand the logic.......wait never mind on the logic.....it is Delta.

 

[bvt1151]

Then why didn't Comair get any of the RJ's allocated to DCI for 2005? I am not trying to be a smart a$$, just trying to understand the logic.......wait never mind on the logic.....it is Delta.

Actually, I mispoke. Fred said Comair is a cheaper alternative to CHQ. Fred did not say, but I would assume ASA is cheaper to Comair, although not by much. The reason he gave for supplying CHQ with more ERJ's was that Bombardier was starting to run up the cost of the CRJ's on Delta, since Bombardier had a sort of monopoly. Fred wanted to diversify the aircraft to both put pressure on Bombardier to keep costs down and to prevent one incident from grounding the entire fleet. That explains the ERJ's.

I don't trust Fred any further than I can kick him, but I think he was backed into a corner during the meeting and divulged more information than he wanted to. He royally screwed up when he admitted Comair is cheaper to DCI than CHQ. To anyone who was there, he tried to cover it up with that bogus "cost of capital" talk, which Randy even said was "confusing." If Fred's original goal was to prime Comair for concessions (which both he alluded to and Randy flat out told us), why would he admit they were well within costs? Oops! Now he has to come up with a way to explain why he gave aircraft to a more expensive entity, and the Bombardier oligopoly at least makes sense. It was either that or the truth...that he was rewarding lower paid pilots.

ASA's CRJ's are entirely speculation, since Fred did not mention them but I would assume they are actually cheaper, not to mention there are some ATR's with uncertain futures.

That should answer your question.

 

[DAL737FO]

This is from the Dalpa duty pilot:

1. The no furlough clause is gone.
2. The recall schedule is gone, however they have to get everyone back by 2008
3. DCI can go up to 82 70 seat RJ's in 2005 THEN their growth depends on every 10,000 new mainline hours
4. Any DCI airline that takes a 70 seater above the current limit of 57 has to give preferential hiring to a Delta furloughee. That means bottom of the seniority list and that airlines first year FO pay.
5. LOA 45 is still in effect (this allows the company to rehire recently retired pilots)

Looks like I'll be flying freight a while longer

 

[601Pilot]

This is from the Dalpa duty pilot:

1. The no furlough clause is gone.
2. The recall schedule is gone, however they have to get everyone back by 2008
3. DCI can go up to 82 70 seat RJ's in 2005 THEN their growth depends on every 10,000 new mainline hours
4. Any DCI airline that takes a 70 seater above the current limit of 57 has to give preferential hiring to a Delta furloughee. That means bottom of the seniority list and that airlines first year FO pay.
5. LOA 45 is still in effect (this allows the company to rehire recently retired pilots)

Looks like I'll be flying freight a while longer

#3 is interesting for ASA since we have 25 50-seaters coming in `05. I think DCI is currently capped at 57 70-seaters, so 82-57 = 25 (I doubt that is a coincidence).

 

[Ninja]

Uncle Leo sure did learn from the Ivory tower MBA playbook...take 25M (of compay $) to protect my pension and my boardroom friends, take the cash & bow out gracefully to Nantucket. Oh, the people & families I have hurt, don't bother me with those details, I have a tee time. I'm surprised he still has a house to go home to!!!

 

[tbkane]

I am bowing out of this thread as the more I read the more it infuriates me about how Delta is once again treating the furloughees....


I do have to say that General Lee has been one of the BIGGEST proponents of the furloughees, and to say different would mean that your not on this board very often....

Thanks General

 

[crj200driver]

"4. Any DCI airline that takes a 70 seater above the current limit of 57 has to give preferential hiring to a Delta furloughee. That means bottom of the seniority list and that airlines first year FO pay."


Would Delta furloughees be happy going to CHQ or SKY or are they only interested in going to ASA or CMR because unless there is language written into the new agreement as to where the new 70's go then they will probably go to CHQ in a new RFP due to "cost" or so they say

 

[FDJ2]

#3 is interesting for ASA since we have 25 50-seaters coming in `05. I think DCI is currently capped at 57 70-seaters, so 82-57 = 25 (I doubt that is a coincidence).

I doubt it too.

 

[FDJ2]

I personally think ASA will get the first batch of 70 seaters based on their last RFP. The new 70s will probably replace the standing order for 50 seaters they were going to get in 2005.

As to where a furloughed pilot would choose to go, probably depends more on where he lives than anything else, although CHQ might have a slight advantage if the upgrade time is short. I honestly don't think a large number of furloughed pilots will go to any of the DCI carriers, but some will want that option.

 

[e120pilot]

TBKANE,

I don't want to sound like an A-hole, but I think you need to ease up on the anger a bit. I understand it sucks to be furloughed, but what good is it to get recalled to a place with no future? In order to make Delta competitve, the pilots are simply going to have to become more efficient(along with the company as a whole). If DAL is forced to recall more than is necessary all that will do is waste more money (the last thing Delta needs right now). I certainly hope all you guys get back sooner rather that later, but I don't see how recalling pilots that aren't needed is going to help Delta survive.

 

[73belair]

#3 is interesting for ASA since we have 25 50-seaters coming in `05. I think DCI is currently capped at 57 70-seaters, so 82-57 = 25 (I doubt that is a coincidence).

Just what I was thinking.

 

[General Lee]

Well, there you have it. The next 25 RFP RJs will be CR7s for ASA. (At least that is what it looks like) Fins should be happy.





DAL737FO,

Hopefully not too much longer.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[NYRANGERS]

It looks like the new limit on 70 seaters is 125. For every increase in 10,000 Company block hours, DCI can add a 70 seater up to 150. The limit on carriers flying other than permitted aircraft types for other than delta has also been lifted. I don't know how this will effect ACA's DO328's, but it looks like they can continue to fly them for delta if the agreement remains.

 

[NDM]

Also, just an interesting side note. CHQ has options for 27 more E-170's which could be delivered in 2005. This option, is one in which Delta would not have to put the money up to finance/purchase new aircraft. Our 170 operation is also now up and running. I have not been able to find in the Delta PWA where the 170 would not be allowed because of it being certificated for possibl more than 70 seats. I belive Embraer has made different classifications for the different seating config's. I.E: 78 seat version ERJ-170-XXX vs the 70 seat version with a first class ERJ-170-XXX. I could be wrong though. Just speculation, and I do not have any concrete evidence.

Dan

 

[Mach 80]

Right after 9/11 Delta's strategy was to immediately raise cash and liquidity using their relatively high credit rating by selling bonds and other methods to weather what they knew was an upcoming 'storm'. Most other legacy carriers went another route which was immediately cutting costs and labor expenses. So...Delta anded up in a high cash position which made it very difficult to later negotiate costs savings from employees who saw the high cash level and delayed what many would say should have been done a few years ago. Raising cash became a both a blessing and a curse. Of course ex-CEO Mullin didn't help things with the retirement scam thing. Finally labor got frightened enough to negotiate.

 

[On Your Six]

The way I see it, the alternative is USAirways pay levels set as a benchmark for everyone else... Did you see what they are paying A330 FOs? A CRJ-700 Captain at Comair can earn more than 80% of USAirways pilots now....

Take it and run.... The alternative could very well be much lower and the anxiety levels will climb through the stratosphere...

 

[surplus1]

Dan, I'm sure that Chq will continue to see growth at DCI. It would not surprise me to see an RFP for any 70 seaters. However, unless the definition of permitted 70 seaters has changed, the E170 would still not be allowed to be outsourced since it has a certificated capacity of over 70 seats. If managment was crawling all over it, I suspect they were more interested in what a E190/195 interior might look like in comparison to an A319 or 737-600/700.

FDJ2

Better check that contract again. Your current contract applies "certificated" capacity of over 70 seats only to ASA and CMR. The other DCI carriers are limited by configured capacity. Therefore CHQ or SKYW or anybody else could operate the EMB-170 for Delta as long as they do not install more than 70-seats. Your current contract descriminates against ASA and CMR and favors outsourcing of this aircraft to carriers that are not owned by Delta.

So, unless that is changed by the TA your alleged support for ALPA's "brand scope" is a myth, as many of us knew it would be.

If Delta wants the EMB-170, based on your contract, the logical carrier would be CHQ. They are already setup to operate this type and it can easily be configured to 70-seats with a 2-class interior. They are already operating it for UAL, have many options and could easily pick up the orders that USAirways can't pay for. This would NOT violate your current contract.

In contrast, operation of that aircraft by ASA or CMR would violate your current contract.

By the same token SKYW could operate the CRJ-705 for Delta within the terms of your contract. So could Mesa. Both have the financing; both have lower pilot payroll costs than either ASA or CMR. Either can configure with 2-class seating.

So much for the ALPA "brand scope" scam.

 

[jhflyhi]

I am the DALPA Duty Pilot