Inhofe offers two amendments to faa reauthorization

[txpilottj]

Good point Thunderworm.....

Domestic flying is domestic flying.....I think the proposed rules go too far overall.

There should be seperate categories for regionals, domestic majors(which includes ANY carrier operating EMB-170/190 sized equipment or above!), domestic cargo, international majors(Pax operations in 757 or greater) and international cargo(again 757 or above).

Each of these industry segments has unique conditions and requirements. Forcing rules tailored for one onto another will create unnecessary restrictions and loss of income for both the affected pilots & companies.

That translates into smaller paychecks and lost jobs guys....NOT what we need.

This career has already been whittled down into a caricature of its former self. Now we face some over-reaching regs that stand to remove what little worth remains in this "profession".

I agree, duty time & rest requirement changes are necessary and long overdue for some industry segments. I just don't want to see them become yet another yoke around our necks, or worse, another tool for management to reduce our income even further.

 

[GittinFatter]

Under the guise of safety, one set of rules for everyone sounds good, but is not.

You can build a bridge 5 different ways with different support structures for each, and have them all the same level and same strength. But you would not use the same structure for all places on the earth, because each foundation has different requierments.
I have been in the non-sched world my whole carrer, 25 plus years. Hell yes there needs to be some changes to the rest and and duty requirements, but one size does not fit all.
The on demand freight business is totally different than FedEx and UPS where they have real schedules much like the pax world. Hub and spoke systems are a cynch to schedule and staff. We have to be flexible for the customer. Odd size loads take more time to load, schedules cannot be forcasted that far in advance anymore than you can forcast an earthquake or tsunami; Which by the way, we regularly supply relief flights for. All the flying for the various military branches, and gov't units, do not run on a pre-printed schedule. Caos around the world does not always happen during daylight hours on the east coast. One set of rules is not the answer. We just need a different structure; safe, but different

 

[Nevergreen]

According to the ALPA.Org site, the Inhofe Amendment has been pulled!

 

[txpilottj]

According to the ALPA.Org site, the Inhofe Amendment has been pulled!

That's NOT good news......

 

[Nevergreen]

Your right.......It's Great News!

Tired is tired, unsafe is unsafe. It doesn't matter who you fly for.

 

[txpilottj]

Tired is tired, unsafe is unsafe. It doesn't matter who you fly for.

Of course...I agree the current rules need to change.

What I have a problem with is the one size fits all mentality. The proposed rules are simply too restrictive for the type of flying done by most long haul operators.

My job is drastically different from flying for a domestic mainline or regional carrier(Thank God!). Sure, change is required, but I see no reason why I should be required to follow rules built to address a completely different operation, especially when those rules are going to do nothing but take money out of my pocket one way or another.

I predict one of 2 possibilities, both of which will basically suck for this segment of the industry.

1) People working at Atlas, Kalitta, Southern, Evergreen, Omni, etc will see their flying and thereby their income reduced by 30% or more.

2) The rules cost the above companies so much that one or more end up out of business. You'll get plenty of rest while looking for a new job though.

Sure, let's make improvements, but let's not fix things that aren't broken.

Give us a new set of rules that fit what WE do, not some nitwits in an RJ or some turboprop.

 

[tailwindz]

Of course...I agree the current rules need to change.

What I have a problem with is the one size fits all mentality. The proposed rules are simply too restrictive for the type of flying done by most long haul operators.

My job is drastically different from flying for a domestic mainline or regional carrier(Thank God!). Sure, change is required, but I see no reason why I should be required to follow rules built to address a completely different operation, especially when those rules are going to do nothing but take money out of my pocket one way or another.

I predict one of 2 possibilities, both of which will basically suck for this segment of the industry.

1) People working at Atlas, Kalitta, Southern, Evergreen, Omni, etc will see their flying and thereby their income reduced by 30% or more.

2) The rules cost the above companies so much that one or more end up out of business. You'll get plenty of rest while looking for a new job though.

Sure, let's make improvements, but let's not fix things that aren't broken.

Give us a new set of rules that fit what WE do, not some nitwits in an RJ or some turboprop.

I don't know who you work for, but you can take Atlas off your list. Almost all of Atlas flights are already augmented or heavy crewed anyway. If one more pilot bankrupts the company then maybe management needs to look in the mirror.

I am thrilled it is off the table.

 

[txpilottj]

I don't know who you work for, but you can take Atlas off your list. Almost all of Atlas flights are already augmented or heavy crewed anyway.

OK....Presto-Changeo-Alakazam....Atlas is now off the list.

But....It still doesn't change the fact that you're going to spend more time sitting around BFE wasting time & waiting to get legal under the new rules.

You're going to lose trips you could have flown otherwise....great, more pilots get hired....but your slice of the pie just got smaller. Congratulations. Welcome to the lucrative world of monthly guarantee because I guarantee it will be much harder to break it. Maybe you like that..not everyone does.

I fly for one of the other companies I listed(Hint: if you read my a/c flown list it's obviously not Omni). We augment as much as possible also.....I don't care if you quadruple crew everything, under these rules, when you get somewhere you're going be stuck staring at the walls instead of earning money.

Finally, to address your last point....it's not hiring pilots that's going to cause issues for these companies. It's going to be the operational disruptions from this nonsense that's going to be the problem.....

I'm not a management guy....I agree we need changes, but moderation in all things. The proposed solution goes too far.

 

[dash8driver]

If it has gone too far and needs to be adjusted, then they need to adjust it for all. Your body doesn't care what is in the back, what certificate you're on or what part your flying under. Pilots should be given proper rest using science, not money as a guideline.

If there was an exemption, do you really think they'd spend the time and money to figure out new rules for the cargo operations or do you think they'd just get the exemption and forget about it?

Cargo is getting the rest because the passenger carriers are getting it. No one cares about a couple of pilots sleeping their way into the ground with a load of Shrek dolls and Amazon orders. The move to make a change in the rest rules came about because they are afraid of riding a plane helplessly into the ground while their pilots are asleep.

Furthermore, trying to fragment our industry out is a bad, bad idea and a slippery slope that we should have learned our lessons from 10 times over by now.

 

[tailwindz]

OK....Presto-Changeo-Alakazam....Atlas is now off the list.

But....It still doesn't change the fact that you're going to spend more time sitting around BFE wasting time & waiting to get legal under the new rules.

You're going to lose trips you could have flown otherwise....great, more pilots get hired....but your slice of the pie just got smaller. Congratulations. Welcome to the lucrative world of monthly guarantee because I guarantee it will be much harder to break it. Maybe you like that..not everyone does.

I fly for one of the other companies I listed(Hint: if you read my a/c flown list it's obviously not Omni). We augment as much as possible also.....I don't care if you quadruple crew everything, under these rules, when you get somewhere you're going be stuck staring at the walls instead of earning money.

Finally, to address your last point....it's not hiring pilots that's going to cause issues for these companies. It's going to be the operational disruptions from this nonsense that's going to be the problem.....

I'm not a management guy....I agree we need changes, but moderation in all things. The proposed solution goes too far.

It shouldn't be ABOUT YOU. Or your paycheck. What it right is right. This is the first time a scientifically based rest plan has been on the table. If it doesn't work then a change can be made, but if it doesn't pass this time it will be years or decades before it is considered again. If you have/get a trip rig then the paycheck will take care of itself. The increased cost will be equally passed on to the customers just as an increase in fuel.

 

[dontpost2]

It shouldn't be ABOUT YOU. Or your paycheck. What it right is right. This is the first time a scientifically based rest plan has been on the table. If it doesn't work then a change can be made, but if it doesn't pass this time it will be years or decades before it is considered again. If you have/get a trip rig then the paycheck will take care of itself. The increased cost will be equally passed on to the customers just as an increase in fuel.

Very well said. Excellent post.

 

[atpcliff]

The new Flt/Duty/Rest rules are VERY similar to the current CAA rules. Europe, and other CAA areas, have been using rules similar to our new ones for years.

 

[skypine69]

If you complain about the rest rules taking money out of your pockets then you are putting a price on safety....the same thing we get pissed at companies for doing.

 

[txpilottj]

It shouldn't be ABOUT YOU. Or your paycheck. What it right is right. This is the first time a scientifically based rest plan has been on the table. If it doesn't work then a change can be made, but if it doesn't pass this time it will be years or decades before it is considered again. If you have/get a trip rig then the paycheck will take care of itself. The increased cost will be equally passed on to the customers just as an increase in fuel.

No...it's not about me. I'm simply using examples to point out what the effects are going to be. We are ALL going to take it in the shorts. I'm concerned for ALL OF US cargo guys because I think this is the wrong way to go.

We do a different job than the passenger carriers. Our operation is completely different. Why should we be forced to accept rules designed in a knee-jerk reaction to a problem caused by people doing a different job?

Perhaps there was some science applied, but it was applied by people with a reactive agenda to one or two egregious situations....NOT the industry as a whole.

You say right is right...OK...explain to me why we need rules built this way? Explain why we shouldn't have rules tailored to protect us, but that also account for the differences in what we do? Right is right...tell me what's right about the current proposal, because I don't see much for us. There's plenty for the RJ crowd that started this mess in the first place, and rightfully so.

We DO need changes...I AGREE with that. I don't agree with THESE changes. And you're right...once this lands in our lap...its NOT going to change for a long time, whether it fits us or not. I want change, but I don't want the wrong changes.

Finally....trip/duty rig? Not everyone has that option available.....sucks, but it's a fact of life. After the beating our profession has taken since 9/11...do you still have that much faith in collective bargaining? Really?

 

[txpilottj]

If it has gone too far and needs to be adjusted, then they need to adjust it for all. Your body doesn't care what is in the back, what certificate you're on or what part your flying under. Pilots should be given proper rest using science, not money as a guideline.

If there was an exemption, do you really think they'd spend the time and money to figure out new rules for the cargo operations or do you think they'd just get the exemption and forget about it?

Cargo is getting the rest because the passenger carriers are getting it. No one cares about a couple of pilots sleeping their way into the ground with a load of Shrek dolls and Amazon orders. The move to make a change in the rest rules came about because they are afraid of riding a plane helplessly into the ground while their pilots are asleep.

Furthermore, trying to fragment our industry out is a bad, bad idea and a slippery slope that we should have learned our lessons from 10 times over by now.

Tell me why rules designed for us, that account for our needs AS WELL AS our safety are a bad idea? Come on.....let's get real. Yes a 12 hr nonstop is fatiguing....yes there should be adequate rest on the end of it. There's no question about that.

But....I say a 12 hr day in an RJ flying 5 or 6 approaches with no chance for rest and minimal time to eat is VERY DIFFERENT from 12 hrs in a 747-400 or MD-11 with an augmented crew, decent bunks and decent meals aboard. I've done BOTH....so I do have some room to comment here.

As I said previously, sure, some science was applied, but it was applied by people shooting at a different target. Just because someone waves a wand and declares it scientific doesn't mean it's right.

 

[dash8driver]

Tell me why rules designed for us, that account for our needs AS WELL AS our safety are a bad idea? Come on.....let's get real. Yes a 12 hr nonstop is fatiguing....yes there should be adequate rest on the end of it. There's no question about that.

But....I say a 12 hr day in an RJ flying 5 or 6 approaches with no chance for rest and minimal time to eat is VERY DIFFERENT from 12 hrs in a 747-400 or MD-11 with an augmented crew, decent bunks and decent meals aboard. I've done BOTH....so I do have some room to comment here.

As I said previously, sure, some science was applied, but it was applied by people shooting at a different target. Just because someone waves a wand and declares it scientific doesn't mean it's right.

You didn't even read what I wrote...

 

[pilotyip]

The same pay for less work.

how does that work, right now most of our pilots break guar, with the new rules they won't be able to as easily, so how to they make the same pay? Not to mention more days on the road in hotels

 

[dontpost2]

What is up with my fellow cargo guys here? For the life of me I cannot figure out why some think these rules shouldn't apply to supplemental carriers and were designed as a "knee jerk" reaction to problems at the passenger carriers. As professional pilots, fatigue is a problem for all of us. I believe cargo pilots will benefit more from this than anyone.
This isn't a problem specific to, and in reaction to, the Buffalo tragedy. This is a problem that started years ago with the crash of a supplemental cargo flight. Yes indeed, that would be Kalitta in Guantanamo. Incidentally, this was the first accident attributed to fatigue. Another crash around about that time attributed to fatigue was operated by another small supplemental by the name of ATI (Kansas City). This one is actually referenced in the NPRM were arguing about.
Some of you seem to be against it for the noble reason that it will hurt your paycheck or you might have to spend an extra day in a hotel. WTF?
Get off your butt and get a decent contract with the pay you deserve. Go for some duty rigs as well. How 'bout a provision to ferry the jet to a safe nearby island after dropping off the freight so I don't have to hear you whine about staying the extra day at the hotel in Lagos.
Spare me the bs about how the boss can't afford it, I just read about one operator who enjoyed a 102% increase in revenue and record profits last year. If you work for one of the smaller outfits the: we can't afford this crap wont work either. One small supplemental owner is building a luxury waterpark in Mcminnville OR. with a 747 on top.

 

[txpilottj]

You didn't even read what I wrote...

You didn't even answer my question.....

 

[stupidpilot]

I love this part of Inhofe's testimony:

A possible fourth incident report could be in the works: The FAA is looking into a landing that Inhofe made this month on a closed runway at the Port Isabel-Cameron County airport in Texas.

One of the key issues for the FAA is expected to be why Inhofe would land on a closed runway, where a crew had been working for several days, despite a Notice to Airmen, NOTAM for short, that the runway was closed.

Inhofe conceded that checking for a NOTAM about a closed runway "probably'' is "technically'' something a pilot should do.

"People who fly a lot just don't do it,'' he said.

Really? I've been flying for 20 years and I always check NOTAMS. I guess I don't fly a lot.