Inhofe offers two amendments to faa reauthorization

[lionflyer]

I agree....IMHO, the current proposals are aimed straight at the regionals. There is very little accommodation for the long-haul freight world, nor the on-demand guys.

The proposed rules simply aren't realistic for long-haul freight, and it WILL take money out of our pockets. Sure, it will generate more hiring, but less work for the same pay? Really? If you honestly believe that, I've got a great deal on a bridge for you......

I agree changes need to be made, but allowances need to be made for different industry segments with different operations.

One size does not and can not fit all.

Well what bridge are we talking about here? When I say the same pay for less work I'm refering having more crews on board for say... Hong Kong to Anchorage. Instead of a single crew flying the 10-12hr haul, one crew would fly half the segment while the other "sleeps". You still get paid for the all flight time but only fly half. I know it's definitly gonna hit the bottom line. I would be happy with 10hrs flight/14hrs duty doesn't matter when duty starts. Oh yeah, Part 91's, get rid of em.

 

[txpilottj]

Well what bridge are we talking about here? When I say the same pay for less work I'm refering having more crews on board for say... Hong Kong to Anchorage. Instead of a single crew flying the 10-12hr haul, one crew would fly half the segment while the other "sleeps". You still get paid for the all flight time but only fly half. I know it's definitly gonna hit the bottom line. I would be happy with 10hrs flight/14hrs duty doesn't matter when duty starts. Oh yeah, Part 91's, get rid of em.

OK great....double crew everything....sounds great at first but you still have the timezone based rest requirements to deal with that will keep you sitting for extended periods, sometimes in places you really don't want to be in(think Lagos, Nairobi, Karachi, Kabul, etc).

Not only that, but if you start double crewing everything, now its that much harder for everyone to get their landings and maintain currency.
Don't forget, you're going to spend a lot more time sitting around so that means fewer legs per month. Combine that with lots of double crews and maintaining currency becomes very difficult. Maybe you like going to the sim constantly.....I'd say most of us don't relish that little task.

What's so bad about 12 hrs flight with an augmented(3 man) crew? I'm on the 747-400. On a 12 hr flight....everybody gets 4 hours rest with a pretty nice bunkroom right off the cockpit.

I say 12 hrs flight/16 duty with limited reference to start time, but the current proposal to tie it to your home timezone is utterly impractical. I do agree with getting rid of tail-end 91s.

Long-haul flying isn't for everyone....those who can't handle it should probably stick to domestic hub turns.

 

[Nevergreen]

What's so bad about 12 hrs flight with an augmented(3 man) crew? I'm on the 747-400. On a 12 hr flight....everybody gets 4 hours rest with a pretty nice bunkroom right off the cockpit.


Long-haul flying isn't for everyone....those who can't handle it should probably stick to domestic hub turns.

What's wrong with it......I fly the 747 Classic. We have 20 PLUS hour days on occasion, WITH NO BUNKS. We have a 3 man crew (the FE counts as the third man), so flight time up to 12 hours. On my plane nobody gets 4 hours of rest, nobody gets any real rest, period.

Do you think that is safe? I can tell you that it is not. Even if you are able to sleep right up to the wake up call, that still means you are awake for 20 something hours before you have to shoot an approach in crap weather, in a 35 year old aircraft.

The time has come for real FT/DT Rules that are based on science. If a supplemental carrier can't afford to stay in business then so be it. They should not continue in business at the expense of the health and lives of the crews.

 

[txpilottj]

What's wrong with it......I fly the 747 Classic. We have 20 PLUS hour days on occasion, WITH NO BUNKS. We have a 3 man crew (the FE counts as the third man), so flight time up to 12 hours. On my plane nobody gets 4 hours of rest, nobody gets any real rest, period.

I flew 747 classics too bro....been there done that. I guess what I was getting at is for extended flight times, there needs to be an acceptable rest facility on board(NOT some sleeping bag concoction!) and augmented crews...so even on your airplane, the regs should require bunks and a third pilot(NOT FE!)

 

[thunderworm]

I fly for a supp. but we are contracted to do another airlines flying. so it is all basically scheduled domestic flying but since it is under our supp. certificate then we don't get the same rest rules as the domestic airlines. Thats not right. I regually do 15 hr days back to back for 5-6 days in a row. I can tell you that it is exhausting and the fatigue word is not used at our company. sure the new rules will hurt the companies bottom line, but it is the companies duty to bid the contracts as such and the customer might have to pay more than $59 to go across the country. If the new rules do not affect the supps. then why wouldn't more airlines sub service out to a supp. that can do it for half as much? everyone flys the same equipment so they should all have the same rules.

 

[txpilottj]

Good point Thunderworm.....

Domestic flying is domestic flying.....I think the proposed rules go too far overall.

There should be seperate categories for regionals, domestic majors(which includes ANY carrier operating EMB-170/190 sized equipment or above!), domestic cargo, international majors(Pax operations in 757 or greater) and international cargo(again 757 or above).

Each of these industry segments has unique conditions and requirements. Forcing rules tailored for one onto another will create unnecessary restrictions and loss of income for both the affected pilots & companies.

That translates into smaller paychecks and lost jobs guys....NOT what we need.

This career has already been whittled down into a caricature of its former self. Now we face some over-reaching regs that stand to remove what little worth remains in this "profession".

I agree, duty time & rest requirement changes are necessary and long overdue for some industry segments. I just don't want to see them become yet another yoke around our necks, or worse, another tool for management to reduce our income even further.

 

[GittinFatter]

Under the guise of safety, one set of rules for everyone sounds good, but is not.

You can build a bridge 5 different ways with different support structures for each, and have them all the same level and same strength. But you would not use the same structure for all places on the earth, because each foundation has different requierments.
I have been in the non-sched world my whole carrer, 25 plus years. Hell yes there needs to be some changes to the rest and and duty requirements, but one size does not fit all.
The on demand freight business is totally different than FedEx and UPS where they have real schedules much like the pax world. Hub and spoke systems are a cynch to schedule and staff. We have to be flexible for the customer. Odd size loads take more time to load, schedules cannot be forcasted that far in advance anymore than you can forcast an earthquake or tsunami; Which by the way, we regularly supply relief flights for. All the flying for the various military branches, and gov't units, do not run on a pre-printed schedule. Caos around the world does not always happen during daylight hours on the east coast. One set of rules is not the answer. We just need a different structure; safe, but different

 

[Nevergreen]

According to the ALPA.Org site, the Inhofe Amendment has been pulled!

 

[txpilottj]

According to the ALPA.Org site, the Inhofe Amendment has been pulled!

That's NOT good news......

 

[Nevergreen]

Your right.......It's Great News!

Tired is tired, unsafe is unsafe. It doesn't matter who you fly for.

 

[txpilottj]

Tired is tired, unsafe is unsafe. It doesn't matter who you fly for.

Of course...I agree the current rules need to change.

What I have a problem with is the one size fits all mentality. The proposed rules are simply too restrictive for the type of flying done by most long haul operators.

My job is drastically different from flying for a domestic mainline or regional carrier(Thank God!). Sure, change is required, but I see no reason why I should be required to follow rules built to address a completely different operation, especially when those rules are going to do nothing but take money out of my pocket one way or another.

I predict one of 2 possibilities, both of which will basically suck for this segment of the industry.

1) People working at Atlas, Kalitta, Southern, Evergreen, Omni, etc will see their flying and thereby their income reduced by 30% or more.

2) The rules cost the above companies so much that one or more end up out of business. You'll get plenty of rest while looking for a new job though.

Sure, let's make improvements, but let's not fix things that aren't broken.

Give us a new set of rules that fit what WE do, not some nitwits in an RJ or some turboprop.

 

[tailwindz]

Of course...I agree the current rules need to change.

What I have a problem with is the one size fits all mentality. The proposed rules are simply too restrictive for the type of flying done by most long haul operators.

My job is drastically different from flying for a domestic mainline or regional carrier(Thank God!). Sure, change is required, but I see no reason why I should be required to follow rules built to address a completely different operation, especially when those rules are going to do nothing but take money out of my pocket one way or another.

I predict one of 2 possibilities, both of which will basically suck for this segment of the industry.

1) People working at Atlas, Kalitta, Southern, Evergreen, Omni, etc will see their flying and thereby their income reduced by 30% or more.

2) The rules cost the above companies so much that one or more end up out of business. You'll get plenty of rest while looking for a new job though.

Sure, let's make improvements, but let's not fix things that aren't broken.

Give us a new set of rules that fit what WE do, not some nitwits in an RJ or some turboprop.

I don't know who you work for, but you can take Atlas off your list. Almost all of Atlas flights are already augmented or heavy crewed anyway. If one more pilot bankrupts the company then maybe management needs to look in the mirror.

I am thrilled it is off the table.

 

[txpilottj]

I don't know who you work for, but you can take Atlas off your list. Almost all of Atlas flights are already augmented or heavy crewed anyway.

OK....Presto-Changeo-Alakazam....Atlas is now off the list.

But....It still doesn't change the fact that you're going to spend more time sitting around BFE wasting time & waiting to get legal under the new rules.

You're going to lose trips you could have flown otherwise....great, more pilots get hired....but your slice of the pie just got smaller. Congratulations. Welcome to the lucrative world of monthly guarantee because I guarantee it will be much harder to break it. Maybe you like that..not everyone does.

I fly for one of the other companies I listed(Hint: if you read my a/c flown list it's obviously not Omni). We augment as much as possible also.....I don't care if you quadruple crew everything, under these rules, when you get somewhere you're going be stuck staring at the walls instead of earning money.

Finally, to address your last point....it's not hiring pilots that's going to cause issues for these companies. It's going to be the operational disruptions from this nonsense that's going to be the problem.....

I'm not a management guy....I agree we need changes, but moderation in all things. The proposed solution goes too far.

 

[dash8driver]

If it has gone too far and needs to be adjusted, then they need to adjust it for all. Your body doesn't care what is in the back, what certificate you're on or what part your flying under. Pilots should be given proper rest using science, not money as a guideline.

If there was an exemption, do you really think they'd spend the time and money to figure out new rules for the cargo operations or do you think they'd just get the exemption and forget about it?

Cargo is getting the rest because the passenger carriers are getting it. No one cares about a couple of pilots sleeping their way into the ground with a load of Shrek dolls and Amazon orders. The move to make a change in the rest rules came about because they are afraid of riding a plane helplessly into the ground while their pilots are asleep.

Furthermore, trying to fragment our industry out is a bad, bad idea and a slippery slope that we should have learned our lessons from 10 times over by now.

 

[tailwindz]

OK....Presto-Changeo-Alakazam....Atlas is now off the list.

But....It still doesn't change the fact that you're going to spend more time sitting around BFE wasting time & waiting to get legal under the new rules.

You're going to lose trips you could have flown otherwise....great, more pilots get hired....but your slice of the pie just got smaller. Congratulations. Welcome to the lucrative world of monthly guarantee because I guarantee it will be much harder to break it. Maybe you like that..not everyone does.

I fly for one of the other companies I listed(Hint: if you read my a/c flown list it's obviously not Omni). We augment as much as possible also.....I don't care if you quadruple crew everything, under these rules, when you get somewhere you're going be stuck staring at the walls instead of earning money.

Finally, to address your last point....it's not hiring pilots that's going to cause issues for these companies. It's going to be the operational disruptions from this nonsense that's going to be the problem.....

I'm not a management guy....I agree we need changes, but moderation in all things. The proposed solution goes too far.

It shouldn't be ABOUT YOU. Or your paycheck. What it right is right. This is the first time a scientifically based rest plan has been on the table. If it doesn't work then a change can be made, but if it doesn't pass this time it will be years or decades before it is considered again. If you have/get a trip rig then the paycheck will take care of itself. The increased cost will be equally passed on to the customers just as an increase in fuel.