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Informal poll for the IR's: do you fly single piston in IMC?

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Do you fly Singe Engine's Into Hard IMC

  • Yes, frequently, sometimes (or often) with passengers.

    Votes: 89 35.9%
  • Yes, frequently, but never with passengers.

    Votes: 11 4.4%
  • Yes, but only in Turbine Powered Singles

    Votes: 6 2.4%
  • Occasionally, but I generally try to avoid it.

    Votes: 76 30.6%
  • Only if I absolutely have to.

    Votes: 35 14.1%
  • No frickin' way!

    Votes: 31 12.5%

  • Total voters
    248
A. Flying a properly equipped single engine recip in IMC, with proper procautions and planning is not something to be afraid of.

Fear is not the issue. Wisdom is. Fear or no, experience generally dictates the wisdom of waiting for a clear day.

The single engine piston airplane with one set of gyros, one vacum pump, one electrical source (the battery is NOT the second), no backup instruments, and but one powerplant to fail is already a formed chain of accident events waiting to happen before the starter is ever engaged. To say nothing of actually conducting the flight.

A hazard becomes a risk when one puts it in play. Idiots accept risks. Bloody idiots put them in play and therefore create them.

Draw your own conclusions.
 
The single engine piston airplane with one set of gyros, one vacum pump, one electrical source (the battery is NOT the second), no backup instruments, and but one powerplant to fail is already a formed chain of accident events waiting to happen before the starter is ever engaged. To say nothing of actually conducting the flight.

Ahh, the marrow of the discussion seeps from the bone...
 
The single engine piston airplane with one set of gyros, one vacum pump, one electrical source (the battery is NOT the second), no backup instruments, and but one powerplant to fail is already a formed chain of accident events waiting to happen before the starter is ever engaged. To say nothing of actually conducting the flight.

So is the transport catagory jet aircraft with it's multitude of possible single point failures.

It only takes one crack in a fan blade explode an engine, or a single spark in a fuel tank to explode, or a worn jackscrew, or some hazmat unknowingly loaded.......on and on. How about the Barron with a leaking heater fuel line? Or the corroded cracked spar I found on a C-210.


Anybody that thinks adding a second engine elimintaes the risk of crashing due to mechaincal failue is deluding themselves.


Yes, I do realize that Avbug knows all and it is pointless to argue with him. Honestly I don't even care what he says. This post is directed to everbody else.
 
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So is the transport catagory jet aircraft with it's multitude of possible single point failures.

It only takes one crack in a fan blade explode an engine, or a single spark in a fuel tank to explode, or a worn jackscrew, or some hazmat unknowingly loaded.......on and on. How about the Barron with a leaking heater fuel line? Or the corroded cracked spar I found on a C-210.


Anybody that thinks adding a second engine elimintaes the risk of crashing due to mechaincal failue is deluding themselves.


Yes, I do realize that Avbug knows all and it is pointless to argue with him. Honestly I don't even care what he says. This post is directed to everbody else.

True, even large multi-redundant aircraft are potentially susceptible to their own assortments of mishaps. However, mishaps like those that you mentioned (e.g. potential explosions caused by sparks in fuel tanks) are hazards that are completely independent of flying in IMC; those hazards exist equally whether you are flying in IMC or not.

On the other hand, hazards that include failure of systems of which there is no backup--systems that are critical to flight in IMC--are not independent of flying in IMC. A failed vacuum pump--your ONLY vacuum pump--in VMC isn't likely to result in a bad day. In IMC it likely will.

Certainly you could argue that three independent vacuum or gyro systems could all fail at once...and yes, they could. But now you are playing a game of weighing probabilities of different events. Compare the probability of your one-and-only gyro system failing in your C172 to the probability of all three gyro systems failing in the same flight in a 777. One of these will have more zeros behind the decimal than the other. Consider that these probabilities are directly proportional to the risk that you accept (or don't accept) for conducting a given flight.
 
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Anybody that thinks adding a second engine elimintaes the risk of crashing due to mechaincal failue is deluding themselves.

You're arguing a point that was never made...and is therefore, without merit. It's irrelevant.

Yes, I do realize that Avbug knows all and it is pointless to argue with him.

A fairly weak statement made when one has nothing meaningful to add, apparently...
 
If you fly into conditions that are conducive to icing, even if none was forcasted, reported, PIREP'd, etc, then you are still in known ice. If ice is on your airplane, that is an indication that you are flying in conditions that are conducive to icing. Therefore, ice on the airplane is known ice.

Wow. All I can say is "not true". Not all ice is known ice.

I have picked up ice where non was forecast, reported, or expected. In fact the scariest ice I ever encountered was in the form of light freezing rain in good VMC conditions. The rain was not visible coming out of a high overcast, and in moments the windshield was completely obscured and the airframe covered in clear ice. This was many years ago flight instructing in a 172. My student was on his first orientation flight!
 
Wow. All I can say is "not true". Not all ice is known ice.

I have picked up ice where non was forecast, reported, or expected. In fact the scariest ice I ever encountered was in the form of light freezing rain in good VMC conditions. The rain was not visible coming out of a high overcast, and in moments the windshield was completely obscured and the airframe covered in clear ice. This was many years ago flight instructing in a 172. My student was on his first orientation flight!

I think the point they are making isn't that it is illegal to fly into unforecasted/predicted ice, but that once you encounter such ice, you are technically in 'Known Ice' (If you look to your left and there be ice forming on the wings, then it is kind of difficult to claim 'I didn't know there was any ice up here') and therefore it would not be legal for you to keep on truckin' through such conditions. Personally, I'd have to agree.
 
Wow. All I can say is "not true". Not all ice is known ice.

I have picked up ice where non was forecast, reported, or expected. In fact the scariest ice I ever encountered was in the form of light freezing rain in good VMC conditions. The rain was not visible coming out of a high overcast, and in moments the windshield was completely obscured and the airframe covered in clear ice. This was many years ago flight instructing in a 172. My student was on his first orientation flight!

If you are flying in conditions forecast to contain ice, or forecast to be conditions conducive to the formation of ice (even if it isn't forecast), you're in known ice.

If you're flying in conditions known to cause ice (visible moisture, freezing temps, or temps just above freezing), you're in known icing conditions.

If you're flying in conditions from which PIREPs have been produced of icing, even though none was forecast or shown on current weather reports, you're in known icing conditions.

If you're flying in conditions in which PIREPs have been received stating "negative icing," but are in conditions conducive to the formation of ice, you are flying in known icing conditions.

If you are flying in conditions in which PIREPs have been received stating "negative icing," but ice is foreast or weather conditions indicate potential icing conditions, you are in known icing conditions. And you might be a redneck. (had to throw that in there)

Having said this, from a strictly legal point of view, current official weather observations negating the presence of ice, in certain circumstances, may be a lawful basis for flight in conditions otherwise conducive to icing. Bearing in mind that merely being legal does not make one safe nor form a solid foundation beneath one's wheels or wings...one should not seek loopholes when dealing with ice. Particularly in aircraft not certificated for operations in ice.

If one is in the clear well away from visible moisture and enounters ice (rare, but possible as descrbed above), one may consider one's self in emergency conditions, and act appropriate to the conditions encountered. Remaining in such conditions can be particularly hazardous.

In the case of the encounter with clear ice outside clouds and presumably in temperatures above freezing, removing one's self to a safer position (eg, where one was prior to encountering the freezing rain) is a wise choice, One should consider landing with reduced or no flaps, and carefully consider the ramifications of reducing power or increasing it, along with airspeed changes and the effects of tailplane stall and/or a traditional aerodynamic wing stall, as well as changes in approach speeds, etc.

If in such conditions freezing rain was in the forecast, legally on hasn't much of a leg to stand upon, as one is in known icing conditions. Encountering such conditions, even when well clear of visible moisture, may indeed be an emergency, but may not provide justification for being there...one has flown into forecast icing, and therefore into known ice.

Arguements regarding failures of turbine engines in Transport Category Part 25 airplanes, in comparison to single engine piston airplanes, are ludicruous. Why, certainly a turbine engine may shed a part, fail, operate on redued power, or otherwise become impaired in some way. However, a turbine powered multi engien airplane capable of a required climb gradient on one engien being compared to loss of power in a single engine piston powered airplane is nonsensical, as clearly the piston single is going down.

Defenders of the single engine piston faith tend to spout off that a piston twin might not be able to maintain altitude with an engine loss, as though the engine loss is the issue...it is not. It is one of many issues, but regarding that one point, the piston twin will go a lot farther on one than will the single in most cases.

Far more likely, and far more frequent, is the loss of a generator, alternator, instrument, gyro, radio, vacum source, etc. Generally even the piston twin has double redundancy of most componts, including the vacum sources, electrical sources, and often instruments.

Not discussed thus far is the wisdom of using radar when flying IMC, both for precipitation mapping and ground mapping. Handy-dandy gollyl-gee-whiz-bang xm weather and the latest terrain GPS database don't make up for the ability to see weather with weather radar in real time, particularly in the case of convective activity.

Many pilots have been killed flying partial panel with fully functioning airplanes. I've seen countless gyro instruments over the years fail, but by far the majority of them have been in less expensive self-contained gyro instruments, particularly vacum powered instruments. These have been a combination of failure of vacum pumps in vacum powered instruments (common in carbon vane dry pumps), pneumatic contamination (including air leaks), and instrument failure. I've had a number of cases over the years of failed pitot-static instruments, most commonly from system contamination (very small insects in the lines swelling with exposure to moisture in flight more than any other cause).

While I've certainly encountered such problems in multi engine airplanes too, including turbine powered airplanes, system redundency and improved quality of instrumentation and appliances has generally made this a non-issue.

Over the past week, I've watched a catastrauphic engine failure in a large turbojet multi engine airplane, experienced an attitude gyro failure, an electrical inverter failure, and several other miscellaneous system failures of a non-critical (but occasionally very annoying) nature.

The turbojet failure occured as I watched a B777 depart. It produced fire and smoke and loud bangs and sounds. I watched it climb ahead uneventfully, enter a downwind, base, and final, and land equally uneventfully. Try that in a single engine airplane.

The attitude gyro failure was a primary gyro failure in a turbine airplane. The gyro began indicating a turn, then a roll to the left, and then began spinning right. This failure occured at night over unlighted terrain. Reference to a second gyro and turning over control of the flight to a second pilot with a perfectly good gyro in front of him solved the problem. System redundancy not common to piston singles proved particularly useful. The electrical failure was also a non-event. A secondary inverter went offline when something occured for which the system removed the inverter and illuminated an annunciator telling me of the change. The only signs I had were an autopilot disconnect with the AC transient, and the light. My corrective action? Check the aux inverter attached to the failed bus, re-engage the autopilot, and call for the checklist.

Electrical failures of most any kind in a single piston in instrument conditions are seldom so uneventful. Particularly considering single piston airplanes are often flown single pilot, and single pilot IFR already produces one of the highest workloads a cockpit can have.

Several weeks ago during a simulator checkride, I was given an unusual attitude condition. Per SOP, I was to close my eyes and look down, while the sim examiner worked his magic. When I looked up, I saw only brown on the attitude indicator. I began to try rolling as I reduced power, but the results were confusing, as I didn't see what I expected on the attitude display indicator (ADI). A quick glance at the standby gyro and copilot attitude gyro confirmed that I had been given two conditions at once; I had been rolled inverted and nose low, and at that point the instructor had frozen and failed my attitude gyro. I recovered glancing at the copilot attitude gyro, and then handed the airplane to the copilot while I re-oriented myself. I suspect I would have been in more dire circumstances in a single piston in the clouds in such a situation. In this case, the presence of two additional attitude gyros was particularly helpful in determining exactly what I had before me...as only one additional gyro still left me trying to guess which was which. The standby attitude gyro was the tie breaker, and made my actions and decisions simple.

Engine failure is one point of concern, but again, only one. Most who make these arguements have never had an engine failure, and perhaps don't appreciate it beyond a book-learning level...may not appreciate the reality of what it means to be without power, especially in a single engine airplane. Most pilots are plagued with the it-can't-happen-to-me syndrome until it does, and then become loud preachers of caution much like myself...I see it occasionally here and on other boards as pilots are awakened to the light of day...often rudely. Once you've had that experience, you may well rethink the wisdom of trying to land a single engine piston airplane with failing instruments and no power out of a cloud. Especially with terrain below.

As I said before, generally inexperience speaks in favor of single engine IMC, whereas those who counter that concept generally speak from a background of experience...and generally from a wiser place. When someone with a lot of hours or numbers or letters following their flying name, find out when their last engine failure, instrument failure, or forced landing was...and see if they're talking from the basis of many hours of point to point ho-hum existance in a dream world, or if they have a comparative dose of reality from which to speak.
 
Weeping Jesus on the cross, dont you guys ever get tired of beating the same old tired horse time after time after time? This same old tired discussion comes up about every three months or so, and it always the same comments... some fact, lots BS. Probably 8 times out of 10 it's not the aircraft that causes an accident in IFR conditions anyway, it's the pilot's STUPIDITY getting in over his head in conditions he had no business flying in to begin with. That, my friends, happens quite frequently to both singles AND multis. Two engines and lots of backup systems are no subsitute for GOOD JUDGEMENT and COMMON SENSE. These are two qualities that quite a few pilots seem to lack these days.
 
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Yes, the question has been asked for many, many years, but still bears repeating based on the answers that so often come.

Assuming good judgement is used, we return to the discussion at hand...as judgement is part of another discussion. An important discussion, but I believe the nature of this topic presupposes that pilots in singles and multis are all using proper judgement insofar as basic operating skills, etc.

Where it is relevant is w(h)eather the pilot who elects to fly IMC in the piston single is exercising good judgement in the first place...which is the topic of this thread.

I believe BenWa had an ulterior motive in asking...I think he's attempting to start some dialogue to attack some specific points that, based on the replies so far, DO merit further discussion.
 
Mod Input:
I added a actual poll to this thread. If you would like to vote please do.
 
I believe that this horse is neither dead nor tired (incidentally, why would anyone want to bludgeon a horse to death?). I think that has been clearly indicated from the breadth of beliefs that have been posted here thus far. This horse is alive and well. Unfortunately, it's manure often stinks.

My ulterior motive (or my goal, anyway) was to post a poll and accumulate a reasonably representative sample of votes, and then open a discussion about the results, and about the potential risks involved in flying single piston in IMC relative to larger aircraft with redundant systems. (Unfortunately, I think the discussion evolved a bit more rapidly than I had initially hoped, sort of went ass-over-teakettle :) ).

Any case, I feel that it is an important subject to debate, especially because it seems to be something that is seldom discussed. You never see a chapter of an instrument text book that hammers home the potential dangers of flying a small simple airplane in the clouds. Neither do you ever see a Sporty's video on the subject. It's an afterthought in GA training, and I believe that most GA pilots out there crank through an instrument program without ever giving the risks they are taking a gram of serious consideration. After all, flying in the clouds is too fun and too challenging to be busy worrying about worst-case scenarios. Their instructors ostensibly spend maybe a few hours (at most) hiding a couple of the gauges with post-its during the student's training, and then send him off for his checkride. If he is lucky his examiner covered up the instruments for another 10 minutes of partial panel experience during the checkride. Big whoop.

Flying your Skyhawk into the clouds is your own business, and nobody can stop you from going there if conditions are legal and the flight is conducted legally in an airworthy aircraft. All anybody can do--in this forum or anywhere else--is encourage you to step back and think about things from another perspective and, as avbug put it, draw your own conclusions.
 
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I start getting quite a bit of single engine IFR time this time of year in the Skylane out on my pipeline patrol routes, especially down in South Texas. Shot several approaches last week because the weather closed up. Week before that I ended up filing IFR all the way back home to Oklahoma, and was in IMC for quite a bit of that flight. Do I feel it was safe? yes, otherwise I wouldnt have done it. Is single engine IFR flying something I would want to do on a daily basis? Definitely not. When I did my instrument training, my instructor hammered the crap out of partial panel flying, and I know I can do it with no problem if need be. I know I have good instrument flying skills, and I know my aircraft is kept in tip top condition. Still, I wouldnt do it on a daily basis, because there's just too much there that "can" happen. I've had two total electrical failures and one engine failure in all my hours of flying, and thankfully, they've all been in day VFR conditions. I'm sure there's guys out there that have lots of time in single engine IFR ops that have never had a problem... YET.
 
Do I feel it was safe? yes, otherwise I wouldnt have done it. Is single engine IFR flying something I would want to do on a daily basis? Definitely not...Still, I wouldnt do it on a daily basis, because there's just too much there that "can" happen. I've had two total electrical failures and one engine failure in all my hours of flying, and thankfully, they've all been in day VFR conditions.

This is the conundrum...you feel it's safe, but wouldn't do it daily, as you feel it's not safe. You know what can happen, but justify it some of the time...perhaps with the idea that it won't happen to you. Perhaps with the idea that little exposure isn't so bad, it probably won't happen to you right then...you're willing to accept a little risk, or some risk, but not risk all the time. You feel as though you're managing your risk.

Much like Russian Roulette...you might have a problem, but it's only one of six chambers, and probably only one is loaded. What are the odds...

Which is the essence of flying a limited-equipped single engine piston engine airplane in the clouds and weather...it's gambling.
 
It's not a question of justifying it. It's simply part of the job I "choose" to do. Risk is an inherent part of the type of flying I do. I accept that level of risk and have no problem with it. If that makes me a crazy outlaw pilot, so be it. That's a whole different discussion (one we've had also) in and of itself. The amount of IFR flying I do single engine is vastly different from what some freight pilot out there in a 210 every night is doing. I'm not denying at all that single engine IFR ops are much riskier than other IFR ops. That's where, in my opinion, the judgement and common sense come into play. Is the job you are doing worth the gamble you take if you are having to do it IFR in a single? And you are absolutely right, it is a gamble.
 
It's an interesting thing to go back and look on. When I was CFI'ing I flew IMC all the time in a single, and didn't think anything of it. Now that I've gotten a little more seasoning I wouldn't consider anything resembling "hard" IMC in any sort of piston single. Hell I'd think long and hard just going at night. The irony of it all is that of course now with a little more seasoning I would probably actually be safer than I was...

But of course part of the seasoning is realizing that it's not pilot skills that keep you safe it's pilot judgment. And good judgment says don't risk your life to a piston engine. It will eventually quit on you.
 
This is the conundrum...you feel it's safe, but wouldn't do it daily, as you feel it's not safe.

There is no such thing as "Safe". Launching into the air in an aluminum can is deffinately not "Safe" under any conditions.

There is only an accepable level of risk, or an unaccepable level of risk.

Day VFR = low level of risk.

Night IFR in a single = higher level of risk.

Night IFR in a twin = moderate level of risk.

Which would I prefer to do? IFR in a twin. It offers the most bennefit for the least amount of risk. However, the risks of a well equiped, well maintained single are not excessive in my opinion.


As I tell any prospective student, flying is as "safe" or as "unsafe" as the pilot makes it
 
It's not a question of justifying it. It's simply part of the job I "choose" to do.

That would be justification. (and in case you haven't heard me say it before...justification is the narcotic of the soul...and based upon your response, you are another addict).

Risk is an inherent part of the type of flying I do. I accept that level of risk and have no problem with it. If that makes me a crazy outlaw pilot, so be it.

"I do usafe things, I'm okay with that. I'm a professional who does unsafe things, and who is okay with doing unsafe things. I accept risk. I am unwilling to find ways to eliminate risk, so I accept it. I'm perfectly fine with the concept of being a crazy pilot, an outlaw, and therefore one who does not see fit to act in accordance with regulation or the law (being the definition of an outlaw, of course)."

Is that a professional creed of yours, or just the way you prefer to see yourself? Do you find this a more romantic view of life?

The amount of IFR flying I do single engine is vastly different from what some freight pilot out there in a 210 every night is doing.

Stealing is okay so long as you don't steal as much as other people do. Driving drunk is okay so long as you don't drive as drunk as others. Taking drugs is okay so long as you don't take as much as other addicts. And engaging in flying behaviors that you know and admit are risky and therefore unsafe (nothing risky is safe) are perfectly fine so long as you don't do it as much as other people do. With that logic, one should feel free to kill so long as mass murders are out there who make one's own acts see like a miniscle meaningless event. Talk about justification!! It's okay to do something you see as risky and dangerous, so long as others do it more than you. Very interesting.

I'm not denying at all that single engine IFR ops are much riskier than other IFR ops.

No, you're not, but you are justifying engaging in such operations, have no problem calling yourself a "crazy outlaw" for doing it, or jusifying doing it. The confusion for me is that you recognize the act as risky and even dangerous...but you're not only willing to do it, but proud to thump your chest and pronounce your willingness to do it.

That's where, in my opinion, the judgement and common sense come into play. Is the job you are doing worth the gamble you take if you are having to do it IFR in a single? And you are absolutely right, it is a gamble.

Worth the gamble? Ladies and gentlemen, we will be departing shortly. Captain Oveure is presently flipping a coin to determine our fuel load for the trip to London tonight. I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for flying with us, we know you had many choices, and we're glad you have decided to gamble on us. Many of you wil be pleased to know this fine evening that we have excellent odds of making it across the ocean, and God willing, we stand a pretty decent chance of finding London by morning. As a special point of interest, Captain Oveure has made this trip so many times that he finds it boring, and tonight had added something special. He has personally disabled all our onboard navigation devices in order to make finding England more challenging, more of a gamble. We thank you for betting on us, and wish you the best of luck in your journey tonight. Ladies and gentlement, please remember to place your bets regarding the successful outcome of this flight before the cabin door closes, we strongly suggest you wear your seatbelts and pad yourself generously, and locate the nearest fire extinguisher, remembering that it may be behind you or under your seat. Thank you for trying Roulette Airways.

Gambling on the outcome of the flight is such a professional act, how can one have anything less than the utmost of respect for your viewpoint regarding this high moral standard that you have chosen? I, for one, am quite impressed.

There is no such thing as "Safe". Launching into the air in an aluminum can is deffinately not "Safe" under any conditions...

As I tell any prospective student, flying is as "safe" or as "unsafe" as the pilot makes it.

Aaaaah...so which is it again? No such thing as safe, under no conditions is launching into the air safe...but your students are lead to believe that it's as safe as the pilot make it. But because it is never safe, the pilot can never make it safe, and because it is as safe as the pilot makes it, it is the pilots fault that the flight is never safe. Truly bewildering logic.

Taking it a step further, of course, if flying is never safe...then there can be no regulations or limits on what we can do...because we can never make it safe. No point wearing helmets, seat belts, maintaining altitude, talking on the radio, using a transponder, calculating fuel burn, designating an alternate, knowing takeoff or landing performance, conducing preventative maintenance, or refraining from flying in poor conditions...after all, it's never safe.

Again we see that proponents of single engine piston IFR continue to be the inexperienced pilots who have yet to see the light. Give it a little time.

In the meantime, seeing as flying is so unsafe, perhaps you should seek something else to do until this wave of fatalism passes. It's for your good and mine.
 
Every time I see threads like this I wonder how many multi pilots are launching into IMC with a false sense of security provided by a second, third or fourth engine.

While my profile obviously indicates a single engine flyer (don't have my multi yet, but intend to) I am by no means defending single engine IMC....just concerned that some people might be thinking that by having multiple engines, redundant systems...etc means that they don't have to worry about the same issues that single engine pilots are faced with. With a properly trained pilot, multi-engine is unquestionably safer, but it is by no means accident proof.

Here's a King Air that despite having two engines and redundant systems not to mention the fact that after a loss of A/C power, the istrumentation on the copilot's side was still working. Yet it still managed to get itself into a graveyard spiral:

http://amelia.db.erau.edu/reports/ntsb/aar/AAR03-01.pdf

Here's a 727 that lost one of three engines, then all electrical power (the board was still unsure why....but it happened) and subsequently lost control in IMC:

http://amelia.db.erau.edu/reports/ntsb/aar/AAR70-06.pdf

Stuff can happen.

As soon as you start thinking it can never happen to you, that's when you start becoming a menace to yourself and others.
 
I don't believe anyone has suggested that it can't happen to you...the topic of the thread is who flies single engine piston airplanes in instrument conditions.

If one does elect to compare the choice of flying with a single engine, single vacum source, single electrical source, limited or no deice, and other issues that have been discussed, one is certainly taking chances. At a minimum, a multi engine airplane with multiple sources for instrument power, greater performance, more electrical sources, often better intrumentation, etc...one is certainly with more options in the event of any single failure. Even in a light twin.

A single engine pilot with one engine loss has one choice and is limited to the engine-out glide range. The multi engine airplane with one engine out has much more to work with. Additional challenges, to be sure, but even if the aircraft is a light Part 23 twin that cannot maintain altitude on one engine, the drift down still offers more capability than no engine at all.

The single engine pilot with a sole engine driven vacum or electrical source is out of luck when that one source fails...a common occurence for many light aircraft alternators and carbon vane dry vacum pumps. The multi pilot has redundancy which does not directly or immediately impact the flight to the degree that the single is impacted. And so on.

Operations IMC without radar are an invitation to embedded convective activity, even in times of the year not normally associated with convective activity. Active weather such as may be associated with a cold front, for example, can be embedded, and it's only a matter of time before you find yourself sharing the same airspace as something you don't like, if you bumble around without seeing the precip with radar.

This thread isn't about multi engine airplanes, turbine powered airplanes, or powered parachutes, for that matter...but about the wisdom of flying piston powered single engine light airplanes in instrument meteorological conditions.

Too often the thinking engaged by those who say yes (just a little too quickly) is only about an engine failure...when the hazards one turns into risks by undertaking the flight are far beyond the scope of a simple engine failure...and even then the issues associated with systems loss inclusive of the engine failure are seldom considered or discussed.
 
Because they have a big stick, there's a horse hanging around, and they want the exercise.
Best response of the day !

Here's how I see it:

If you want to be 100% safe, Don't fly.

If you are willing to take a little risk, fly only when there are no clouds anywhere in the sky.

If you want to take some more risk, fly when there are a few clouds in the sky.

If you are willing to take some more risk, fly when there are some more clouds in the sky....

...and so on....

You are the one who asseses the risk and makes the call. Use the information here and everywhere you can find information to help with the management of the risk, but you are taking a risk everytime you fly; single, multi, VFR, IFR, it's all about the risk.
 
I believe that this horse is neither dead nor tired (incidentally, why would anyone want to bludgeon a horse to death?).

I always thought the phrase "like beating a dead horse" was a worthless act. Let's see what the internet search function turns up.

Acording to Wikipedia: "Rather, "beating a dead horse" is about the futility of one's complaints or actions"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beating_a_dead_horse

If you read this site enough, topics seem to return on some cycle of time. Maybe it is when a new group of students get to that part of their text book or the homework assignment they do not want to spend any time on.

I agree with Nosehair. It is about risk, and how much you care to accept (the risk). Of course you can eat tofu burgers all your life to avoid the risk (of what ever vegertarians are concerned about) and get killed in a car accident by a drunk driver.

I think the key is understanding the risk and the results if/when Murphy's Law happens.

JAFI
 
It is not about the risk. It's about finding and eliminating the risk. A risk is only a hazard until you put it in play. Either don't put it in play, or open the door such that the risk is no longer a risk. Seek and eliminate hazards every second of every flight. Risk elimination isn't a one time effort; it's a process that never ends. Just like looking for traffic.
 
Avbug, I agree with some qualification. My thoughts:

A hole in a street is a hazard. We can drive down the street and avoid the hazard (the hole) to minimize the risk to the car. Or the inexperienced driver can drive too fast because many inexperenced drivers do not understand or foolishly accept the risk of driving too fast. An inexperienced (or IMHO a foolish) pilot can launch on a day filled with thunderstorms above his ability, knowledge, or in an aircraft not equiped with radar.

The question is how close can you get to "be safe". Unfortunally many pilots let their inexperience, desire to build flight time, or over inflated ego override the concern for the risk. Sometimes they run into trouble, sometimes not.

I guess to goes back to the old saying:

There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots.....

Or My favorate: It is better to be down here wishing you were up there than to be up there wishing you were down here.

Either way, Be safe.

JAFI
 
Avbug, I agree with some qualification. My thoughts:

A hole in a street is a hazard. We can drive down the street and avoid the hazard (the hole) to minimize the risk to the car. Or the inexperienced driver can drive too fast because many inexperienced drivers do not understand or foolishly accept the risk of driving too fast. An inexperienced (or IMHO a foolish) pilot can launch on a day filled with thunderstorms above his ability, knowledge, or in an aircraft not equipped with radar.

The question is how close can you get to "be safe". Unfortunately many pilots let their inexperience, desire to build flight time, or over inflated ego override the concern for the risk. Sometimes they run into trouble, sometimes not.

I guess to goes back to the old saying:

There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots.....

Or My favorite: It is better to be down here wishing you were up there than to be up there wishing you were down here.

Either way, Be safe.

JAFI

In most cases, the bigger, the more "complex" the airplane, the easier they are to fly. The most demanding airplanes that most people will ever fly are light, piston-powered singles and twins. On paper, they are very capable machines; but at the same time, it’s all too easy to get in way over your head in them. In Part 25 transport category aircraft, you not only have all of the various systems and “backups”, but if you fly them buy the book, you also have built in performance guarantees.

The problem is that many relatively inexperienced pilots operate their aircraft in a way that that leaves them “exposed”. Lets assume that they have flown their SE airplane for hundreds of hours in "hard IFR" conditions and have never had a problem – does this mean that the operation is safe or are they merely lucky? What do you think? You can fail to plan for your eventual engine failure and place your trust in the laws of probability. But remember, if you choose this path, the danger doesn't’t go away, it merely lies in wait and when the inevitable occurs, the laws of physics (and gravity) take precedence. Like the guy said when St. Peter met him at the Pearly Gates, “It never killed me before!”

Personally, I believe that flying is essentially an exercise in “risk management” – you accept reasonable risks and try to eliminate or, at least, minimize the rest. Can you make flying totally risk free? Of course not, no more than you can make any other activity that we do risk free. However, if you go about it properly, flying is as about as benign an activity as you can possibly do. I have a framed photo of an old biplane hung up in the limbs of a tree. (You’ve probably seen the one I’m talking about, they’re in just about every pilot shop in the country.) The photo’s caption reads, “Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect.” I agree with that statement.

There is perhaps nothing more dangerous than a “green” instrument pilot out in the weather. Passing a written and taking a checkride no more makes you an instrument pilot than buying a piano would make you a concert pianist. We all start out “green”, but as we gain more experience, hopefully, we become “seasoned”. That’s what experience does for you, you don’t manipulate the controls “better”, you just fly “smarter”. I think that this might explain why most of the old farts on this board tend to feel the flying is single in hard IFR isn't a particularly smart thing to do, while the less experienced types don't see anything particularly wrong with it.

LS
 
Can you make flying totally risk free?

One can certainly try with all one's might. I submit that when one stops trying with all ones might, every conscious moment, one is in a boatload of trouble.

That's bad.
 
One can certainly try with all one's might. I submit that when one stops trying with all ones might, every conscious moment, one is in a boatload of trouble.

That's bad.

No argument there.

Maybe we should have a poll and ask "How many of your co-workers/friends have you buried when they:

1. Did not manage risk well.
2. Single engine IFR accident.
3. Multi-engine accident.
4. Automobile accident.

If nothing else to drive home the points we all have made. Just a thought.

JAFI
 
I took some risks tonight walking down the street with a black jacket on. I probably should have put a reflective vest on.
For the record I fly single pilot single-engine turbine IFR at night. Do I think I'm a daredevil? No. Do I think its stupid? No. Do I think there are risks? Yes. I risk my life taking a shower or eating meat or walking across the street without a reflective vest.
Also if you think I believe I have eliminated risk by flying a turbine single vs. a piston single your wrong.
 

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