Informal poll for the IR's: do you fly single piston in IMC?

[GravityHater]

One might well notice that the willingness in this regard generally equates to experience. Inexperienced pilots often reply that they will, experienced pilots often reply that they will not, generally speaking.
Why do you suppose that is?

Let me be the first to stand up and defend the older (presumably more experienced) pilot, I do not believe they are all "wusses that have lost their nerve" as some will surely say. Neither does it mean they are all on a fast track to a life in the living room recliner.

It may just be that they now have a different "risk tolerance" than when they were younger.
That is fine, normal, acceptable; even expected. No one should respect them any less for this decision.

 

[pilotyip]

Do it on a regualr basis, pax or no pax. Personal rules; no TRW, ice OK if frezzing level well above MEA, has to be soft IFR along the route. Desintation well above minimums, such as 800' and 2 for precision approach. Airplane has standby vacumn source. It beats the heck out of scud running in marginal VFR condtions.

 

[JAFI]

Somewhere between "C" and "D". It always seemd to me that "I really have to get there NOW" situation is at the same time as "The weather is getting worse more than better".

Condition of the aircraft, mountains, cloud base below 3000 agl (have you ever thought of dead sticking from a cloud base of 500 feet or less?), night, ice, thunderstorms/less than stable, friendly weather would cause me to say no to single engine IMC this time.

Depending on conditions, SE IFR is workable but IMHO if everything is not working in your favor it is like: Throwing lit matches at a powder keg to see if you can do it. You never know when it will catch.

Be careful out there, you are betting your life that you do it right the first time.

JAFI

 

[atldc9]

Back when I was instructing full time, on the rotten mornings when it was 200 and 1/2, and we would have to cancel students because of wx, a couple of instructors and I would rent a nasty old 172 and file IFR to the marker and back for practice approaches.

At the time it seemed like a good way to get practice in actual conditions.

Now, I wish someone would have hit me in the head with a brick. Low IFR in a crappy old 172, alternates at min's, destination at mins, nearest VFR a LONG way away, and a few 1000 hour wonders flying = recipe for disaster. The stupid stuff of inexperience.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Some freight dogs have no choice.

 

[avbug]

I once had an instrument student flying a C172 ...Often it was IMC and always in the dark (winter time in Pac NW)... Did we ever get ice? You bet.

Your Cessna 172 was the one and only Skyhawk certified for flight into known ice, then? No apologies there...you knew you were flying illegally, and demonstrated to your student that it's okay. What a wonderful example for an instructor to give a student, when the intructor is there to develop wisdom and judgement in the student. Excelent effort.

But we had outs that would allow us to escape to safety if need be.

Well then, this makes it all right. Illegal and unsafe (ice in an aircraft not type certificated or ammended for flight into known ice is an unsafe and illegal condition. As you are required at all times to be both legal and safe, and the very definition of airworthy means the aircraft is legal and safe in all respects, means that you made the flight in an unairworthy airplane, under illegal conditions, taking on ice at night in an aircraft not certified for it, while providing instruction to a student. Not only are you unrepentant about it, but you're defending your action as though it were a good thing.

It's not.

There was nothing ever cavalier about it, and we both feel that the experience and confidence he gained helped him in his flying.

Apparently so. You feel that flying a student in icing conditions in the dark in a single engine airplane not certificated for flight into known ice was good experience for your student, and your student now has the confidence to do things he shouldn't, thanks to your fine example. And you find this acceptable. Perhaps your're even proud of yourself. Fine job.

I guess what I'm getting at is that you should fly at the level you feel comfortable with, but do not pass up the opportunity to stretch your abilities (with proper preparation). After all, the plane flies just as well at night and in clouds as it does during the day in the clear.

Does it fly as well in the ice as when not in the ice? Is it okay to
fly in ice at night because you feel comfortable? Are you stretching your abilities by performing illegal and unsafe activities in unairworthy aircraft? (But it's okay because ou feel comfortable...).

It's okay, Mr. Inspector. Yes, it's a violation of the regulation, but don't worry. I'm comfortable with it.

You have the situation clearly in hand and under control. Again, my most sincere congratulations at your elevated state of justification...the narcotic of the soul. How is your addiction today?

 

[landlover]

i've never gone into imc in a single engine aircraft. I did my training in a twin and thats where my comfort level stops. today i dont even think i'd fly a single engine airplane period, clear and a million or not.

 

[BenWA]

Your Cessna 172 was the one and only Skyhawk certified for flight into known ice, then? No apologies there...you knew you were flying illegally, and demonstrated to your student that it's okay.

I would like to add something here, if I may. Seethru, even if you had been flying the only C172 in existance that was certified for known ice, or hell, even if you had been flying any light aircraft certified for known ice, that would have been no excuse for being there. No light piston single or light piston twin for that matter...certified for known ice or not...should be in known ice IMO. Those systems are to be used to [hopefully] get one out of an icing situation, not into one.

Avbug is absolutely right that it is not only foolish but illegal. If your airplane is accreting ice, you are in known ice. It doesn't matter whether or not it was forcast, reported, or anything else. Ice on your airplane is known ice, and it is illegal and potentially life threatening to be there in that sort of airplane.

 

[USMCmech]

I once had an instrument student flying a C172 who worked days and could only fly in the evenings during the week. He is an experienced pilot and I doubt I would have done this with a pilot with a fresh Private Certificate.

Often it was IMC and always in the dark (winter time in Pac NW). This included all maneuvers (slow flight/stalls/steep turns), and of course plenty of approaches.

There was nothing ever cavalier about it, and we both feel that the experience and confidence he gained helped him in his flying. If we could have flown during daylight I'm sure we would have, but that was not possible.

Did we ever get ice? You bet. But we had outs that would allow us to escape to safety if need be.

I guess what I'm getting at is that you should fly at the level you feel comfortable with, but do not pass up the opportunity to stretch your abilities (with proper preparation). After all, the plane flies just as well at night and in clouds as it does during the day in the clear.

Would someone show me where he said he ever flew in KNOWN icing conditions?

I would consider launching into known icing conditions in ANY light airplane to be foolish not to mention illeagle in most airplanes. However lots of pilots including myself have "picked up ice" when flying IFR in cold weather.

Re: the experianced pilots argument. There are many pilots who have thousands of hours and fly IFR in single engine airplanes. Several freight companies fly tens of thousands of hours per year IFR in singles. However as we have seen pilots flying a certian type of twin turbine have had several fatal crashes.

IFR in a single absolutely holds more risk than in a twin, However, for many intelligent and experianced pilots the costs of a twin excced the added safety value.

 

[JediNein]

A. No ice, no thunderstorms, no 2000 hour vacuum pumps either.

If it wasn't for singles, I wouldn't be flying.

 

[BenWA]

Would someone show me where he said he ever flew in KNOWN icing conditions?

Sure:

Did we ever get ice? You bet.

If you fly into conditions that are conducive to icing, even if none was forcasted, reported, PIREP'd, etc, then you are still in known ice. If ice is on your airplane, that is an indication that you are flying in conditions that are conducive to icing. Therefore, ice on the airplane is known ice.

 

[Gofish]

A. Been there...done that got the T-shirt.

The older I get the more I realize the folly of my youth.

 

[AdSo81]

A. Flying a properly equipped single engine recip in IMC, with proper procautions and planning is not something to be afraid of.

If you fly most places in this country durning the winter, Ice is gonna be a factor at somepoint. Self teaching ones self about Ice is not something Id recommend to anyone (from personal experiance). Most single engine recips that are certified into known icing cant do a truly effective job of shedding that ice, and there for if needed, should only be used as an escape tool. Just my 2 cents.

 

[minitour]

Most single engine recips that are certified into known icing cant do a truly effective job of shedding that ice, and there for if needed, should only be used as an escape tool. Just my 2 cents.

I'd argue even multi-turbojet aircraft that have systems to shed the ice should only be used as a way to buy time and options. Certainly this doesn't mean if you're fat dumb and happy in a ___ at FL290 picking up some ice that you need to change altitudes, directions, etc like you would in a piston single/twin (hell, even turboprop)...just means (IMHO) that the system should be there to buy you options. Can we go higher? Lower? Change in directions? Will we be out of the conditions soon?

-mini

*edit*
PS
Not my favorite thing to do anymore, but I think that has more to do with getting access to a twin whenever I want than the airplane having one engine. That said, I do like backups. So...not my favorite, but I'll do it if I have to.

 

[Ersatz]

Answer: F