Industry 70 seat rates

[FLYLOW22]

How did my thread on industry comparisons of 70 seat rates turn into an RJDC thread????? Oh well!

Because THAT is what it is all about.

Management will continue to whipsaw mainline against regional and regional against regional until all of you no longer realize what the fight was about... oops, too late.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Well... actually it was the DAL pilots who let the camels nose under the tent on the RJ issue. Years ago, in a galaxy far, far away (CVG) and airline called Comair began with 50 seaters.

Now the pay is about the same for 50 seats through 100 seats. The RJ has killed the DC9, 717, 737-200/500 and F100. Ain't paybacks a bitch.

Actually Flylow22, it started well before that. It started with Eastern Metro in the early '80s. Randy Babbitt is on record as saying it was a mistake to allow outsourced flying, but their ego's got in the way of good judgement. Let that be a lesson to all of us..... put the ego's and emotion away, and stop the transfer of flying. If it means paycuts and concessions, so be it - don't allow more flying to leave.

 

[jehtplane]

I decided to do some research on 70 seat rates in the industry, to compare them to ASA's current rates, and what mngmt has proposed. Pretty interesting:

Captain Rates:

---Eagle--Comair--Mesa- PSA- CHQ- SKYW--Ave: ASA

5yr- 70--- 64 --- 62--- 66--- 68----63--- 65.5----68
6yr- 72--- 66--- 64--- 68--- 70 ---65--- 67.5----70
7yr- 74--- 68--- 66--- 69--- 72----67--- 69.3----72
8yr- 76--- 70 --- 68--- 71---74 ---69--- 71.3-----75
9yr- 78--- 72--- 70--- 73--- 76--- 71--- 73.3----78
10yr- 80---74--- 72 --- 75--- 79--- 74---77.7-----81
Max- 97--- 94--- 90 --- 91--- 95--- 93---93.5----103
18 yrs

First Officers:

---Eagle--Comair--Mesa--Psa---CHQ---SKYW---Ave----ASA--ASA cut

1yr--24---20-------21-----21----22----19----21.6-----19---?
2yr--32---32-------28-----30----30----35----30.4-----37---32.2
3yr--34---34-------31-----32----34----36----33-------39---34.3
4yr--36---35-------33-----34----35----37----34.6-----40---34.8
5yr--37---36-------34-----35----35----38----35.4-----41---35.7
max-39---38-------36-----36----35-----40---35.7-----45

If you look at the FO rates, ASA is indeed considerably higher than the rest, aside from 1st year. Now, my feeling on this is maybe everyone else is paid too little, however, they are what they are. ASA's second year FO pay is almost more than the industry ave. for the max pay! Trying to be rational, and looking from the other side, I can see where management is coming up with their proposed rates. They still put ASA above industry average. With the unions propsed 9% raises above these rates, we would be so far above industry rates our flying would no longer be viable, and we would probably lose all of our 700's to Skywest. This is how business works. They seek to keep their costs in line with their competitors. No flame, now. I am not a Deangelo. Just wanted to lay it out and look at it in the big picture to decide if I support 9% increase (which I would LOVE!) over our already higher rates, and deciding the cosequences of that. Can I strike to try to get 23% more pay than the averages of my competitors? I just don't think they will pay us that, and if they did agree to, how could we expect any new flying, or to keep what we have when Skywest could just take it, or Delta could give it to Mesa and CHQ whose costs are much lower!

Look at all the ********************bag companies you are comparing yourselves too, I do not see Horizon in there, lets see, Skywest, flies them for 50 seat rates, CHQ, and Mesa, well why go there, Eagle signed a 15 year contract, I can not believe what I am reading all the sudden it is OK to take paycuts for growth aircraft, grow a pair guys, The airframes are already determined where they are going, lets be realistic about this, Sky******************** flies them for less, do you really want to sink to that level? Don't sell out.

 

[JoeMerchant]

How did my thread on industry comparisons of 70 seat rates turn into an RJDC thread????? Oh well!

Because they are more closely related then you realize..... Bidding for flying has resulted in this situation, and bidding for flying is a result in ALPA's failure to deal with scope in an effective matter.

 

[Dodge]

That is exactly the reason that having effective scope language in our next contract is critical.

Mesaba pilots have very effective scope. As long as NWA continues to contract out flying that has been deemed below the standards of mainline pilots to Mesaba, the Mesaba pilots are employed. When NWA and Mesaba (aka NWA) Management decide to part ways, scope language is wasted ink and paper. This is where Mesaba is and many other regionals could be headed.

Last post, I promise.

 

[~~~^~~~]

How did my thread on industry comparisons of 70 seat rates turn into an RJDC thread????? Oh well!

Sorry.... You started a good thread.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Thank God, because you were the only one I was worried about I will definately need a driver to and from the Buffett concert.

Sorry for the thread creep everyone. 737 Pylt got my goat with his libel.

Looking forward to seeing you this weekend. Don't let 737Peenut get your goat, he is getting worried that ALPA isn't protecting his job and is rightly concerned.... maybe he should seek outside legal council also because obviously ALPA isn't protecting his career.

Fins up and see this weekend....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Look at all the ********************bag companies you are comparing yourselves too, I do not see Horizon in there, lets see, Skywest, flies them for 50 seat rates, CHQ, and Mesa, well why go there, Eagle signed a 15 year contract, I can not believe what I am reading all the sudden it is OK to take paycuts for growth aircraft, grow a pair guys, The airframes are already determined where they are going, lets be realistic about this, Sky******************** flies them for less, do you really want to sink to that level? Don't sell out.

It's not a matter of "selling out", it is a matter of industry reality. Horizon at this time is a unique situation that may or may not continue. We are a competitor for Delta flying. Our parent company is in BK, and our competition is paid less than we are asking for the 70 seater. I don't like it anymore than you do, but we have to play with the hand we are dealt...

 

[79%N1]

Look at all the ********************bag companies you are comparing yourselves too, I do not see Horizon in there, lets see, Skywest, flies them for 50 seat rates, CHQ, and Mesa, well why go there, Eagle signed a 15 year contract, I can not believe what I am reading all the sudden it is OK to take paycuts for growth aircraft, grow a pair guys, The airframes are already determined where they are going, lets be realistic about this, Sky******************** flies them for less, do you really want to sink to that level? Don't sell out.

Well, other than Horizon, those are all of the Regional carriers that fly 70 seaters. Who else can I compare? I don't think anyone should have to take paycuts....but I disagree that the aircraft are already decided on where they go. Look at Skywest already taking 13 700's from ASA! How can we think they won't take more? The point of the chart was for me to find out how my pay compares with others, to see if my CNC was in line in what we are asking for.....and guess what? It isnt! We are already $6-7/hr more than everyone else. How do we think we can get another 9%, and then keep the flying? Can SKYW not open a base in ATL to fly more 70's? How about them opening a base in ATL to get the new (proposed) 90's? Of course they can. Rumor is, Mesa will be getting the 900 flying anyway, not ASA. I didnt invent the pay to play, and I don't like it. I just think we need to be careful in what we are asking for, and I don't think too many people understand where we are in relation to the competition. I really foresee small decreases for 70 Captains at ASA, and FO's going to one rate for all aircraft. (Fo's always get sold out anyway, right) Throw in some profit sharing and some sort of rig or min day, more liberal swapping rules and our w2's will come out ahead. We can, and should meet management at some compromise where we can all come out ahead.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Well, other than Horizon, those are all of the Regional carriers that fly 70 seaters. Who else can I compare? I don't think anyone should have to take paycuts....but I disagree that the aircraft are already decided on where they go. Look at Skywest already taking 13 700's from ASA! How can we think they won't take more? The point of the chart was for me to find out how my pay compares with others, to see if my CNC was in line in what we are asking for.....and guess what? It isnt! We are already $6-7/hr more than everyone else. How do we think we can get another 9%, and then keep the flying? Can SKYW not open a base in ATL to fly more 70's? How about them opening a base in ATL to get the new (proposed) 90's? Of course they can. Rumor is, Mesa will be getting the 900 flying anyway, not ASA. I didnt invent the pay to play, and I don't like it. I just think we need to be careful in what we are asking for, and I don't think too many people understand where we are in relation to the competition. I really foresee small decreases for 70 Captains at ASA, and FO's going to one rate for all aircraft. (Fo's always get sold out anyway, right) Throw in some profit sharing and some sort of rig or min day, more liberal swapping rules and our w2's will come out ahead. We can, and should meet management at some compromise where we can all come out ahead.

79%, I know you and I don't agree on a lot of things, but I applaud you for looking at this objectively and independantly. I don't like "pay to play" any more than you do, but unfortunately it is a fact of life. ALPA will form more committees to study "pay to play" and "scope" while those of us in the trenches have to live it.

The fact is, until ALPA mounts an effective defense, we must live with "pay to play" whether we like it or not.......

 

[jehtplane]

Well, other than Horizon, those are all of the Regional carriers that fly 70 seaters. Who else can I compare? I don't think anyone should have to take paycuts....but I disagree that the aircraft are already decided on where they go. Look at Skywest already taking 13 700's from ASA! How can we think they won't take more? The point of the chart was for me to find out how my pay compares with others, to see if my CNC was in line in what we are asking for.....and guess what? It isnt! We are already $6-7/hr more than everyone else. How do we think we can get another 9%, and then keep the flying? Can SKYW not open a base in ATL to fly more 70's? How about them opening a base in ATL to get the new (proposed) 90's? Of course they can. Rumor is, Mesa will be getting the 900 flying anyway, not ASA. I didnt invent the pay to play, and I don't like it. I just think we need to be careful in what we are asking for, and I don't think too many people understand where we are in relation to the competition. I really foresee small decreases for 70 Captains at ASA, and FO's going to one rate for all aircraft. (Fo's always get sold out anyway, right) Throw in some profit sharing and some sort of rig or min day, more liberal swapping rules and our w2's will come out ahead. We can, and should meet management at some compromise where we can all come out ahead.

When did those companies agree to those payrates? Comair is in BK, Sky******************** is well Sky********************, and CHQ and Mesa, do you really want to drive yourselves to the pit of Mesa,what about Eagle, they signed that contract years ago, How long has the ASA pilot group been in negotiations? What is so unique about Horizon? You guys need to stop the race to the bottom. You can believe the planes are already decided where they are going, reference the Comair and ASA RFP years ago, when ASA said go pound dirt and ASA got the AIRPLANES ANYWAY, Jerry has a plan.

 

[1x1]

Horizon at this time is a unique situation that may or may not continue. .

I'll venture to say "may not" . They have an ammendable contract this year, and they are hiring a wealth of low time, eager to get a job, CFI types. If you consider Horizon's high payscale, and read between the lines, I think the situation at Horizon will soon fall in line with the rest of the "bottom feeder" fiascos. Before you know it, the Horizons boyz and girlz will be on this board with there effusive tirades about management, and how Brand X regional dold them out for growth. JMHO

 

[JoeMerchant]

When did those companies agree to those payrates? Comair is in BK, Sky******************** is well Sky********************, and CHQ and Mesa, do you really want to drive yourselves to the pit of Mesa,what about Eagle, .

So are you saying that we don't have to compete with CMR, SKYW, CHQ, MESA, and EGL? Are you in denial?...... You can rationalize why these carriers agreed to what they did until the cows come home, but at the end of the day it won't alter the fact that we are still competing with them. Maybe you should be asking your $500,000 per year ALPA president WHY we are competing with each other while he makes more than 5 ASA 700 captains? What is ALPA doing to prevent this? What are your 2% dues doing to stop this?

 

[hmmurdock]

I decided to do some research on 70 seat rates in the industry, to compare them to ASA's current rates, and what mngmt has proposed. Pretty interesting:

Captain Rates:

---Eagle--Comair--Mesa- PSA- CHQ- SKYW--Ave: ASA

5yr- 70--- 64 --- 62--- 66--- 68----63--- 65.5----68
6yr- 72--- 66--- 64--- 68--- 70 ---65--- 67.5----70
7yr- 74--- 68--- 66--- 69--- 72----67--- 69.3----72
8yr- 76--- 70 --- 68--- 71---74 ---69--- 71.3-----75
9yr- 78--- 72--- 70--- 73--- 76--- 71--- 73.3----78
10yr- 80---74--- 72 --- 75--- 79--- 74---77.7-----81
Max- 97--- 94--- 90 --- 91--- 95--- 93---93.5----103
18 yrs

First Officers:

---Eagle--Comair--Mesa--Psa---CHQ---SKYW---Ave----ASA--ASA cut

1yr--24---20-------21-----21----22----19----21.6-----19---?
2yr--32---32-------28-----30----30----35----30.4-----37---32.2
3yr--34---34-------31-----32----34----36----33-------39---34.3
4yr--36---35-------33-----34----35----37----34.6-----40---34.8
5yr--37---36-------34-----35----35----38----35.4-----41---35.7
max-39---38-------36-----36----35-----40---35.7-----45

If you look at the FO rates, ASA is indeed considerably higher than the rest, aside from 1st year. Now, my feeling on this is maybe everyone else is paid too little, however, they are what they are. ASA's second year FO pay is almost more than the industry ave. for the max pay! Trying to be rational, and looking from the other side, I can see where management is coming up with their proposed rates. They still put ASA above industry average. With the unions propsed 9% raises above these rates, we would be so far above industry rates our flying would no longer be viable, and we would probably lose all of our 700's to Skywest. This is how business works. They seek to keep their costs in line with their competitors. No flame, now. I am not a Deangelo. Just wanted to lay it out and look at it in the big picture to decide if I support 9% increase (which I would LOVE!) over our already higher rates, and deciding the cosequences of that. Can I strike to try to get 23% more pay than the averages of my competitors? I just don't think they will pay us that, and if they did agree to, how could we expect any new flying, or to keep what we have when Skywest could just take it, or Delta could give it to Mesa and CHQ whose costs are much lower!

Interesting comparison, however you forgot to add in Horizon's 70 seat payrate. If you are going to look at the 70 seat averages then include ALL of the 70 seat payrates. I find it amusing that people dont include Horizon's payrates. Is it because you think they make too much?

 

[JoeMerchant]

I'll venture to say "may not" . They have an ammendable contract this year, and they are hiring a wealth of low time, eager to get a job, CFI types. If you consider Horizon's high payscale, and read between the lines, I think the situation at Horizon will soon fall in line with the rest of the "bottom feeder" fiascos. Before you know it, the Horizons boyz and girlz will be on this board with there effusive tirades about management, and how Brand X regional dold them out for growth. JMHO

I believe you are correct 1x1. My guess is that Horizon will fall in line with the rest. They will blame another pilot group, but in the end they will just become part of the problem. We are doing it to ourselves, blaming each other, and continue to pay our "union leaders" large amounts of money to do nothing....

 

[mavdog]

I believe you are correct 1x1. My guess is that Horizon will fall in line with the rest. They will blame another pilot group, but in the end they will just become part of the problem. We are doing it to ourselves, blaming each other, and continue to pay our "union leaders" large amounts of money to do nothing....

I'm interested... if you were management how are you going to come to a pilot group that is making money for the company? It's real money too, not that inflated fee-for-departure crap. Who is Horizon going to blame?? That 'other' regional taking our flying? I don't think so.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I'm interested... if you were management how are you going to come to a pilot group that is making money for the company? It's real money too, not that inflated fee-for-departure crap. Who is Horizon going to blame?? That 'other' regional taking our flying? I don't think so.

It isn't "fee for departure crap". We are making money, but only because Delta is paying us. If they don't pay us to fly for them, then we don't make money. Ask ACA, Air Wisc. and Mesaba about this "crap".

 

[737 Pylt]

Looking forward to seeing you this weekend. Don't let 737Peenut get your goat, he is getting worried that ALPA isn't protecting his job and is rightly concerned.... maybe he should seek outside legal council also because obviously ALPA isn't protecting his career.

Fins up and see this weekend....

Sorry JB, I'm not the one filing a lawsuit! Maybe you should get your head out of Dan's butt! He's leading you down a path that the likes of the Easter scabs!
737

 

[mavdog]

It isn't "fee for departure crap". We are making money, but only because Delta is paying us. If they don't pay us to fly for them, then we don't make money. Ask ACA, Air Wisc. and Mesaba about this "crap".

So I guess I can ask myself...

 

[JoeMerchant]

So I guess I can ask myself...

Yes you can. At Mesaba, you make money if NWA pays your expenses plus. If they don't, you don't make money.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Sorry JB, I'm not the one filing a lawsuit! Maybe you should get your head out of Dan's butt! He's leading you down a path that the likes of the Easter scabs!
737

Actually we have an Eastern scab as a committee chairman here at ASA. The former CAL MEC Chairman was an Eastern scab. You are the ALPA true believer, not me. How has ALPA come thru for the junior Delta pilots? Keep believing in ALPA - it will get you nowhere........

 

[mavdog]

Yes you can. At Mesaba, you make money if NWA pays your expenses plus. If they don't, you don't make money.

So, I guess you missed my point... who pays Horizon fee+ so that they can make money like they are??

 

[737 Pylt]

Actually we have an Eastern scab as a committee chairman here at ASA. The former CAL MEC Chairman was an Eastern scab. You are the ALPA true believer, not me. How has ALPA come thru for the junior Delta pilots? Keep believing in ALPA - it will get you nowhere........

The junior DL pilots until this day keep recieving Cobra benefits.. What did CMR do during their furloughs?? Did you and your rjdc pals help them with any benefits?? Keep believing in the rjdc, (according to Dan) you will all be millionares and flying 777's!
737

 

[JoeMerchant]

So, I guess you missed my point... who pays Horizon fee+ so that they can make money like they are??

Alaska and Frontier do. If they decide in the future that they are paying too much, they will shop around for "cheaper feed". We are all competing in a free market "bidding war". Like it or not, how can some continue to defend ALPA in allowing this "bidding war" to continue. Either stop the "bidding war" or bid competitively - those are the two options.

 

[JoeMerchant]

The junior DL pilots until this day keep recieving Cobra benefits.. What did CMR do during their furloughs?? Did you and your rjdc pals help them with any benefits?? Keep believing in the rjdc, (according to Dan) you will all be millionares and flying 777's!
737

If ALPA was doing their job, those pilots wouldn't be fuloughed at all. ALPA sold their jobs plain and simple. We won't be millionairs and we won't fly 777s - and you won't be protected by ALPA. I will do what is best for me - regardless of how it affects you.

 

[mavdog]

Alaska and Frontier do. If they decide in the future that they are paying too much, they will shop around for "cheaper feed". We are all competing in a free market "bidding war". Like it or not, how can some continue to defend ALPA in allowing this "bidding war" to continue. Either stop the "bidding war" or bid competitively - those are the two options.

Frontier yes, but on the Alaska side you are wrong. Alaska and Horizon are sister companies within the same holding company. If Alaska went shopping outside the group, it would only kill it's own stock price. Oh, and Alaska Airlines does not tell Horizon where to fly.

 

[737 Pylt]

If ALPA was doing their job, those pilots wouldn't be fuloughed at all.

Oh really....I guess we should have hired your lawyer!! What else could the DMEC have done? They filed the grievance, and LOST.

ALPA sold their jobs plain and simple.

At what price? About $2,000,000,000 per pilot and no less than $100,000,000,000 punitive....Woops wrong one!

We won't be millionairs and we won't fly 777s -

You're right, you and Dan have sealed your future! You better pray Skywest doesn't dissolve your company. Your fight will be with your Skywest brothers. You better hurry up and tell Haber you've got a new suit for him. And tell all those supporters to keep sending in their money!

and you won't be protected by ALPA.

Remember that the next time you bust an altitude or a hold short line. Call Haber to defend you.. After all, he's done such a great job already!

I will do what is best for me - regardless of how it affects you.

Well there's one point we can agree on!

I'll ask you again, what did your group (the rjdc) do for your furloughed brothers at CMR when they were on furlough??

737

 

[JoeMerchant]

Frontier yes, but on the Alaska side you are wrong. Alaska and Horizon are sister companies within the same holding company. If Alaska went shopping outside the group, it would only kill it's own stock price. Oh, and Alaska Airlines does not tell Horizon where to fly.

CMR, ASA, PDT, and ALG where/are wholly owned subsidiaries just as Horizon is. This didn't stop Delta and USAir from shopping around for a better price now did it?

 

[mavdog]

CMR, ASA, PDT, and ALG where/are wholly owned subsidiaries just as Horizon is. This didn't stop Delta and USAir from shopping around for a better price now did it?

Enough said... I'll try to say it again... slowly this time: Alaska Airlines does not pay Horizon Air for feed. Oh wait, I think they actually do in ANC... my bad.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Enough said... I'll try to say it again... slowly this time: Alaska Airlines does not pay Horizon Air for feed. Oh wait, I think they actually do in ANC... my bad.

Delta paid CMR and ASA as wholly owned subsidiaries. USAir paid ALG and PDT as wholly owned subsidiaries. How does Horizon get paid? Who pays them? I don't know for sure, but I would bet it is a fee-for departure scheme paid by Alaska. If you know for sure, I would be interested in finding out.