Impact of Delta Selling Regionals on Flow-through & Flow-back?

[BILL LUMBERG]

Lear,

When I signed up at NWA, I signed up for a pension and the dream of never being furloughed. I also thought that I might be upgrading within 4-5 years. I also thought that my seniority would never be subverted by a bunch of underhanded SLI arbitrators.

Just let it go Delta pilot......let it go!!

 

[DYLIN]

Without flow-down provisions into the most Captain senior positions, I would be against any flow-up to Delta. Calling my reps on this one.

What is your question? We might be able to answer it right here, too.

A flowback situation would place the flowbacked mainline pilots right at the top of the Compass list, in seniority order.

It is for this reason that the #1, #2, and #3 Compass pilots out of 400 total are furloughed Northwest Airlines pilots, the ones that elected to fly at Compass before returning to NWA, and then the music stopped right before they were going to go back to mainline so they've waited there a couple years.

Does that help? Flowbacks would be senior to all Compass pilots except those that were offered a mainline class date and elected to stay at Compass (doubt anyone would elect to stay at Compass, but there could be one or two). If for some reason there were a lot that wanted to stay, only the top 10% would be offered this protected seniority. So the most senior Delta flowback would be 10% system seniority. That stuff is all hypothetical though, since nobody has had the chance to turn down a class offer yet (45 day window is open right now).

 

[wmuflyguy]

If Delta wants a flow it will have to be with Comair, and I am guessing that will never happen as nobody wants it at either group.

I wouldn't say nobody wants it at Comair, a decent portion of us FO's would be for it. It is the vocal top 250 that really don't (some mof who think they should get something for nothing).

 

[General Lee]

I wouldn't say nobody wants it at Comair, a decent portion of us FO's would be for it. It is the vocal top 250 that really don't (some mof who think they should get something for nothing).

Not many DL pilots feel too much sympathy "Condom Air, Delta Protection". And apparently the lack of offers to buy Comair speaks volumes too. I would NOT be in favor of a Comair flow down/up. Those top 250 really ruined a lot of good will with the DL pilots, which won't be forgotten.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[RedRum]

Just let it go Delta pilot......let it go!!

BL,

Easy for you to say..

Just sayin

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Huh?

Are you talking Mr.SuperPremium Widebody? I'm sure your life is soooo rough right now postmerger.....

save it!

 

[wmuflyguy]

Not many DL pilots feel too much sympathy "Condom Air, Delta Protection". And apparently the lack of offers to buy Comair speaks volumes too. I would NOT be in favor of a Comair flow down/up. Those top 250 really ruined a lot of good will with the DL pilots, which won't be forgotten.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Don't forget, just make sure you take it out on the right people.

 

[Full of LUV]

I wouldn't say nobody wants it at Comair, a decent portion of us FO's would be for it. It is the vocal top 250 that really don't (some mof who think they should get something for nothing).

Well I guess the solution that DALPA would live with would be for the flow to start with anyone hired after 2002 at COMAIR. Thats when the Delta pilots got the hot poker in the eye post furloughs. Funny thing is that only a handful would have even went there (like ASA) and would have left long ago, but the animosity very much remains.

 

[wmuflyguy]

Well I guess the solution that DALPA would live with would be for the flow to start with anyone hired after 2002 at COMAIR. Thats when the Delta pilots got the hot poker in the eye post furloughs. Funny thing is that only a handful would have even went there (like ASA) and would have left long ago, but the animosity very much remains.

That's fine or just make everyone who chooses to flow interview first, doesn't matter to me. Originally I was pointing out to a poster from oh that not all of us are against a flow (I was hired well after this whole mess). More and more of us are realizing this place is not a permanent home and is in trouble. I'm fine without a flow (though not opposed to one), I'll apply and interview if I should ever get called (not just at DL, plenty of other good jobs), I'll earn a spot.

 

[FBN0223]

Not many DL pilots feel too much sympathy "Condom Air, Delta Protection". And apparently the lack of offers to buy Comair speaks volumes too. I would NOT be in favor of a Comair flow down/up. Those top 250 really ruined a lot of good will with the DL pilots, which won't be forgotten.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Flow up/Flow down agreements with any DCI carrier are not a significant benefit to Delta pilots. In many cases, flow through agreements are used to somehow justify the loss of scope.

Regarding Compass: NWA pilots took a 30% paycut to buy aircraft for another airline to fly our routes for the promise that we could flow-down and go from a Delta FO making 110k per year to a Compass Captain making 62k per year. "Gee, where do I sign up for that one."

Flows are overrated: If you want to fly for Delta, apply and get hired.

 

[jetflier]

Not many DL pilots feel too much sympathy "Condom Air, Delta Protection". And apparently the lack of offers to buy Comair speaks volumes too. I would NOT be in favor of a Comair flow down/up. Those top 250 really ruined a lot of good will with the DL pilots, which won't be forgotten.


Bye Bye--General Lee

For us NWA types, please explain how the top 250 Comair pilots ruined a lot of good with the DL pilots? What happened?

 

[RedRum]

Huh?

Are you talking Mr.SuperPremium Widebody? I'm sure your life is soooo rough right now postmerger.....

save it!

This is a perfect example of why you, as a RD, will never get it. You don't know my history... you forget about all of the retirements we were having and all of the expectations that went with that.

Screw the super premium widebody thing. That was concocted by the senior pilots to protect themselves, just like they always do. Do we agree on that one.

On the issue of my raise. I am grateful for that. Who wouldn't be, but please tell me, what was the alternative? Were only the DAl pilots supposed to get the raise and not the NWA guys? That would have been a great way to start a merger. Giving longevity to NWA FOs who had been furloughed for 5+ years. Again, what was the alternative, give it only to the RD pilots only?

What about the 2007 hires that are now senior to people hired pre-9/11. That is an outrage and one of the reasons I will never see that "super premium widebody" you love to bring out.

Trying to let it go, but when I hear about other pilots telling me about how bad they have had it, I just have to call it like I see it. And you aren't making it better by rubbing the SLI award into the faces of every fNWA guy that got screwed on here.

Sticks and stones... I'm onboard with this merger but when I read statements like the one you made there, it sort of sheds light on the simple fact that pilots could really care less about one another and they will step on eachothers' backs to get ahead. Just the way it is. ALPA brother...GEESH.

Have a nice day.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

For us NWA types, please explain how the top 250 Comair pilots ruined a lot of good with the DL pilots? What happened?

Sure Jet...

Back when Delta was furloughing, we didn't have any sort of flow-back or flow up and there was a provision in our contract to get "preferential" interviews at our wholly owned DCI carriers.....These furloughed pilots were interviewing for only and entry level First year F/O. No pay or seniority protection.....basically bottom rung.

ASA and it's pilots said "No Problem, we welcome them!" (Champs in my book). Meanwhile the Comair MEC decided to pull some blood from our MEC by holding our Furloughees hostage for scope relaxation and saying they weren't welcome and would NOT support a pilot who is already down on his/her luck. This was lower than Whale crap......The MEC did it, but ONLY 1 GUY in their pilot group protested this stupid anti-union tactic. The Comair Pilots never once tried to recall this rogue group of lifers or even held them to task for their stupidity. They all carry this burden like a scab as far as I'm concerned.

Please read the memo from then MEC Chairman/Jackhole JC Lawson:

TO: Comair Pilots
FROM: J.C. Lawson, Comair MEC Chairman
DATEecember 16, 2002
Your MEC met in CVG with the Delta MEC Chairman, Captain Will Buergey, at his request, to discuss preferential hiring of furloughed Delta pilots at Comair. Through this letter, I hope to dispel rumors and provide a more thorough understanding of the purpose and outcome of that meeting.

The Delta MEC, while in session at the bi-annual October Board of Directors meeting in Hollywood, Florida, formally directed the Delta MEC Chairman via resolution to meet with the Comair MEC Chairman to seek preferential hiring for furloughed Delta pilots at Comair while allowing them to retain their Delta seniority.

The general philosophy held by the Comair MEC is:

We are sensitive to the regrettable plight of all furloughed pilots in our industry.
We encourage our management to hire pilots who seek a future at Comair.
We have formally approached Comair management and our management has agreed to preferential hiring of furloughed ALPA pilots.
We agree with our company's policy that requires prospective Comair pilots to resign their seniority at their previous carrier.
We believe our Company's industry-standard policy requiring seniority resignation is sound and wise. It promotes the general health and welfare of all Comair employees and serves to protect the future of our company.
At our meeting in CVG, Captain Buergey offered preferential hiring to Comair pilots if the Comair MEC would recommend to Comair management that they hire furloughed Delta pilots and allow them to retain their Delta seniority.

Your MEC responded that hiring any pilots at Comair who do not resign their seniority at their previous carrier gives rise to numerous substantive concerns. The Delta MEC's offer of (future) preferential hiring at Delta is not sufficiently substantive to overcome those concerns and solicit Comair pilots' support. We suggested three alternative concepts, any one or all of which might lead to a mutually beneficial solution:

Relax the Delta PWA, Section 1, seat restrictions imposed upon Comair and ASA that limit our growth in 70-seat and larger airframes.
Negotiate Delta Brand Scope language with Delta management that defines all Delta flying within the Delta revenue stream to be performed solely by Delta, Comair, and ASA pilots.
Negotiate a plan for future integration of our Delta, Comair, and ASA pilots seniority lists that fairly recognizes the efforts and contributions of all.

The Comair MEC stands ready to work with the collective MEC's to bring about change that makes sense in a challenging economic environment and works for all pilots who perform flying under the Delta brand. As we stated in the Tuesday, December 3rd meeting, our door is still open.

COMAIR MEC
AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL
SUITE 120 3940 OLYMPIC BOULEVARD ERLANGER, KY41018
859-282-9016 FAX 859-283-5533

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

This is a perfect example of why you, as a RD, will never get it. You don't know my history... you forget about all of the retirements we were having and all of the expectations that went with that.

Screw the super premium widebody thing. That was concocted by the senior pilots to protect themselves, just like they always do. Do we agree on that one.

On the issue of my raise. I am grateful for that. Who wouldn't be, but please tell me, what was the alternative? Were only the DAl pilots supposed to get the raise and not the NWA guys? That would have been a great way to start a merger. Giving longevity to NWA FOs who had been furloughed for 5+ years. Again, what was the alternative, give it only to the RD pilots only?

What about the 2007 hires that are now senior to people hired pre-9/11. That is an outrage and one of the reasons I will never see that "super premium widebody" you love to bring out.

Trying to let it go, but when I hear about other pilots telling me about how bad they have had it, I just have to call it like I see it. And you aren't making it better by rubbing the SLI award into the faces of every fNWA guy that got screwed on here.

Sticks and stones... I'm onboard with this merger but when I read statements like the one you made there, it sort of sheds light on the simple fact that pilots could really care less about one another and they will step on eachothers' backs to get ahead. Just the way it is. ALPA brother...GEESH.

Have a nice day.

Listen to yourself Redrum.....

Whining over a big pay raise, Snapped into longevity (assuming you got furloughed and now one 8'th or 9th year pay), access to a larger fleet of widebodies. Oh yeah, better BASES where you don't have to shovel in August. You guys were parking jets, not getting any new ones...(save me the 787 Sparky, it's still a paper airplane). Funny how my half-way up the seniority list just slipped 2 more years as a result of this merger. All those retirements sure did add up.......

......and you want to piss and moan because you didn't get date of hire???? Awww....

You CAN hold widebody by what you wrote, you are just punking everybody on here that you got screwed.

I hope I get to fly with guys like you, it'll be a delight!!!

 

[RedRum]

Sure Jet...

Back when Delta was furloughing, we didn't have any sort of flow-back or flow up and there was a provision in our contract to get "preferential" interviews at our wholly owned DCI carriers.....These furloughed pilots were interviewing for only and entry level First year F/O. No pay or seniority protection.....basically bottom rung.

ASA and it's pilots said "No Problem, we welcome them!" (Champs in my book). Meanwhile the Comair MEC decided to pull some blood from our MEC by holding our Furloughees hostage for scope relaxation and saying they weren't welcome and would NOT support a pilot who is already down on his/her luck. This was lower than Whale crap......The MEC did it, but ONLY 1 GUY in their pilot group protested this stupid anti-union tactic. The Comair Pilots never once tried to recall this rogue group of lifers or even held them to task for their stupidity. They all carry this burden like a scab as far as I'm concerned.

Please read the memo from then MEC Chairman/Jackhole JC Lawson:

TO: Comair Pilots
FROM: J.C. Lawson, Comair MEC Chairman
DATEecember 16, 2002
Your MEC met in CVG with the Delta MEC Chairman, Captain Will Buergey, at his request, to discuss preferential hiring of furloughed Delta pilots at Comair. Through this letter, I hope to dispel rumors and provide a more thorough understanding of the purpose and outcome of that meeting.

The Delta MEC, while in session at the bi-annual October Board of Directors meeting in Hollywood, Florida, formally directed the Delta MEC Chairman via resolution to meet with the Comair MEC Chairman to seek preferential hiring for furloughed Delta pilots at Comair while allowing them to retain their Delta seniority.

The general philosophy held by the Comair MEC is:

We are sensitive to the regrettable plight of all furloughed pilots in our industry.
We encourage our management to hire pilots who seek a future at Comair.
We have formally approached Comair management and our management has agreed to preferential hiring of furloughed ALPA pilots.
We agree with our company's policy that requires prospective Comair pilots to resign their seniority at their previous carrier.
We believe our Company's industry-standard policy requiring seniority resignation is sound and wise. It promotes the general health and welfare of all Comair employees and serves to protect the future of our company.
At our meeting in CVG, Captain Buergey offered preferential hiring to Comair pilots if the Comair MEC would recommend to Comair management that they hire furloughed Delta pilots and allow them to retain their Delta seniority.

Your MEC responded that hiring any pilots at Comair who do not resign their seniority at their previous carrier gives rise to numerous substantive concerns. The Delta MEC's offer of (future) preferential hiring at Delta is not sufficiently substantive to overcome those concerns and solicit Comair pilots' support. We suggested three alternative concepts, any one or all of which might lead to a mutually beneficial solution:

Relax the Delta PWA, Section 1, seat restrictions imposed upon Comair and ASA that limit our growth in 70-seat and larger airframes.
Negotiate Delta Brand Scope language with Delta management that defines all Delta flying within the Delta revenue stream to be performed solely by Delta, Comair, and ASA pilots.
Negotiate a plan for future integration of our Delta, Comair, and ASA pilots seniority lists that fairly recognizes the efforts and contributions of all.

The Comair MEC stands ready to work with the collective MEC's to bring about change that makes sense in a challenging economic environment and works for all pilots who perform flying under the Delta brand. As we stated in the Tuesday, December 3rd meeting, our door is still open.

COMAIR MEC
AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL
SUITE 120 3940 OLYMPIC BOULEVARD ERLANGER, KY41018
859-282-9016 FAX 859-283-5533

-------

Pot meet kettle

 

[eaglesview]

Sure Jet...

Back when Delta was furloughing, we didn't have any sort of flow-back or flow up and there was a provision in our contract to get "preferential" interviews at our wholly owned DCI carriers.....These furloughed pilots were interviewing for only and entry level First year F/O. No pay or seniority protection.....basically bottom rung.

ASA and it's pilots said "No Problem, we welcome them!" (Champs in my book). Meanwhile the Comair MEC decided to pull some blood from our MEC by holding our Furloughees hostage for scope relaxation and saying they weren't welcome and would NOT support a pilot who is already down on his/her luck. This was lower than Whale crap......The MEC did it, but ONLY 1 GUY in their pilot group protested this stupid anti-union tactic. The Comair Pilots never once tried to recall this rogue group of lifers or even held them to task for their stupidity. They all carry this burden like a scab as far as I'm concerned.

Please read the memo from then MEC Chairman/Jackhole JC Lawson:

TO: Comair Pilots
FROM: J.C. Lawson, Comair MEC Chairman
DATEecember 16, 2002
Your MEC met in CVG with the Delta MEC Chairman, Captain Will Buergey, at his request, to discuss preferential hiring of furloughed Delta pilots at Comair. Through this letter, I hope to dispel rumors and provide a more thorough understanding of the purpose and outcome of that meeting.

The Delta MEC, while in session at the bi-annual October Board of Directors meeting in Hollywood, Florida, formally directed the Delta MEC Chairman via resolution to meet with the Comair MEC Chairman to seek preferential hiring for furloughed Delta pilots at Comair while allowing them to retain their Delta seniority.

The general philosophy held by the Comair MEC is:

We are sensitive to the regrettable plight of all furloughed pilots in our industry.
We encourage our management to hire pilots who seek a future at Comair.
We have formally approached Comair management and our management has agreed to preferential hiring of furloughed ALPA pilots.
We agree with our company's policy that requires prospective Comair pilots to resign their seniority at their previous carrier.
We believe our Company's industry-standard policy requiring seniority resignation is sound and wise. It promotes the general health and welfare of all Comair employees and serves to protect the future of our company.
At our meeting in CVG, Captain Buergey offered preferential hiring to Comair pilots if the Comair MEC would recommend to Comair management that they hire furloughed Delta pilots and allow them to retain their Delta seniority.

Your MEC responded that hiring any pilots at Comair who do not resign their seniority at their previous carrier gives rise to numerous substantive concerns. The Delta MEC's offer of (future) preferential hiring at Delta is not sufficiently substantive to overcome those concerns and solicit Comair pilots' support. We suggested three alternative concepts, any one or all of which might lead to a mutually beneficial solution:

Relax the Delta PWA, Section 1, seat restrictions imposed upon Comair and ASA that limit our growth in 70-seat and larger airframes.
Negotiate Delta Brand Scope language with Delta management that defines all Delta flying within the Delta revenue stream to be performed solely by Delta, Comair, and ASA pilots.
Negotiate a plan for future integration of our Delta, Comair, and ASA pilots seniority lists that fairly recognizes the efforts and contributions of all.

The Comair MEC stands ready to work with the collective MEC's to bring about change that makes sense in a challenging economic environment and works for all pilots who perform flying under the Delta brand. As we stated in the Tuesday, December 3rd meeting, our door is still open.

COMAIR MEC
AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL
SUITE 120 3940 OLYMPIC BOULEVARD ERLANGER, KY41018
859-282-9016 FAX 859-283-5533

Sounds an awful lot like the support we Striking EAL pilots got from DAL and the DAL MEC. No striking EAL pilots hired.

 

[FBN0223]

This thread is a great argument for ending any and all flow-up/flow-down agreements at all DCI carriers.

Giving away scope is saying adios to our passengers, our aircraft, our routes, our jumpseats and our jobs forever but as a special bonus we substitute in flow up/flown down agreements that have almost zero benefit for mainline pilots.

 

[PuffDriver]

Sounds an awful lot like the support we Striking EAL pilots got from DAL and the DAL MEC. No striking EAL pilots hired.

Sure, except that Delta pilots weren't striking, I didn't see one citation of EAL in that letter, and Delta owns Comair rather than being arch rivals. Other than that, yeah, I guess the two circumstances are exactly alike.

 

[eaglesview]

Sure, except that Delta pilots weren't striking, I didn't see one citation of EAL in that letter, and Delta owns Comair rather than being arch rivals. Other than that, yeah, I guess the two circumstances are exactly alike.

That is one weak response.

"Delta pilots wern't striking"....What does that have to do with one ALPA pilot group helping another. UAL was not striking either but I sent my resume and application to the UAL MEC...why? because they did help.

Delta pilots have had a history of not helping other pilot groups when it counted. ( I am not including NW guys in that statement)

But if you are more comfortable taking the management view, be my guest.