I'm Here Doing It...at Avantair

[Nolife]

Rumor I heard on the street is that they don't want folks that will bail when recalled at better paying fractional operators. Sadly for most recalls are a long time away. Does Avair still require a training contract?

 

[hangarrat]

I have met pilots with past Frac, military, 121, 135, and 91 corporate at avantair. They are old, they are young, they are tall, short, fat, skinny, black, white, male, female and everything in between. 95% of the guysgals I meet are having a great time, smile, laugh and enjoy life both on tour and off tour.

I think the only hard and fast rule they have is that if you come across like an arrogant, self serving, prima donna with a sky god complex during the interview you are likely to have trouble getting a training slot.

And yes, due to a couple wanna-be-pilots who wasted company money and time a couple years back, they still have a one time, one year, pro-rated training contract.

 

[AftCG182]

Well I am not sure how to take this statement. Are you saying that because I am high time guy I can plan on not getting the call. I consider myself highly trainable and I am having a great time interacting with my passengers as a contract King Air driver. No Prima Dona airline attitude going on here, I just need a steady gig to pay the bills. As a matter a fact many of my hours were put together flying for a now defunct airline that many of your current pilots flew for as well. So I guess what I am saying is that it would be very disappointing to hear that a unofficial company policy is in place that would toss out a qualified applicant simply based on high flight time. Never a good idea to assume we are all uptight anal retentive Capt. types who don't know where the bags go or where the lav dump is located.
I'm Just Sayin

Please, don't anyone plan for anything based on what I type here. Experience is a great thing, having "too much experience" may have been a poor choice of words. Sorry for raising the overall stress level.

 

[PC12Cowboy]

anyone that applied during the window hear anything yet?

 

[surveypilot]

Unfortunately, nothing here.

anyone that applied during the window hear anything yet?

 

[johnsonrod]

Good luck Lear70 - I hope you get it!

Here's a preview of training for the Avanti II - not sure how current it is though:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PozsRQUjem4

Gotta like that Pro Line 21 system up front... Looks like a fun airplane to fly.

 

[Lear70]

Heh heh... sorry, tried to edit my post for typos this morning and accidentally deleted mine and Johnsonrod's in the process, then I got busy and forgot to finish reposting...

What I WAS saying,,,

Yes, Avantair is calling people for interviews, I was down there last week. What I didn't mention was that I didn't get the job, which was GREATLY disappointing, as I was HIGHLY impressed with the people and the operation. It looks as if they've spent a considerable amount of effort on the interview process and they're being highly selective of who they employ,,, which is a good thing.

The facility was top-notch; they gave us a tour of the new Operations Command Center, huge multi-tiered room with large screens they can track real-time flight status, maintenance issues, ATC issues, news, you name it. Nicer by far than the one we had at Flexjet (and yes, that means that Avantair IS interviewing people with previous frax experience).

Received a benefits briefing from the head of HR, pretty impressive list, the medical coverage sounds outstanding, the maintenance facility was impressive as well, they can do their own heavy C and D checks and have 121-style quality control for return to service chains, just an impressive operation.

The friendliness of everyone was very welcome as well. I've interviewed at quite a few places in my career, and usually it's a "oh God, another bunch of suits, gotta be the next interview class, here we go... *sigh*" This wasn't anything like that, they even bought us a nice, Italian lunch with some of the lead Captains who were there working in the OCC, guys who didn't even sit in to interview us; they just came and were sociable.

They flew us in the night before, had a chance to meet some of the Recurrent and Upgrading pilots as well as new-hires, a friendly group, although a little preoccupied to talk shop. Hotel van picks you up from TPA, takes you to the hotel, and also takes you with your interview group over to HQ. Morning is spent mostly doing PRIA paperwork and the grand tour, then lunch, then break off into interviews, etc. We didn't leave until a little after 5:00.

No, I'm not going to give details of the interview. Please don't PM me asking, I'm not going to tell you; they spend a lot of time preparing their interview questions and giving people the gouge will only make them spend time coming up with new interview questions. It's not a difficult process, everyone made us feel MORE than welcome, from the first phone contact and phone interview to the travel arrangements to the actual interview day and a PHONE CALL when I DIDN'T get the job. That's a first for me, and speaks very highly to their professionalism and the way they want to do business.

I'll definitely be reapplying in the future. Don't know if it will help, but with my "situation", I was d@mned impressed they were willing to look past it to see if I would be a good addition and fit. Speaks volumes to the character of the interview and selection group. Good luck to everyone else who applied and/or interviews!

:beer:

 

[C425Driver]

Lear,

Sorry you didn't get the offer. I was hoping it would go the other way for you. Good luck to you!

 

[Lear70]

Thanks, my friend. Like I said, great experience, great people, you never know what the future holds or why things turn out the way they do, just gotta keep plugging at it.

Fly safe out there!

 

[PC12Cowboy]

Well two and a half months later I got the thanks no thanks letter..BUMMER

 

[wacoflyr]

I am sorry. That truly sucks, but they have resumes coming out of their ears. Word is that they have gotten very picky. They had no choice, with classes of only six every three weeks or so.

Things will change, and the market will swing. ATP to be required at the regionals, age 65 in two years, and the puppy mills priced out of a market. The Vietnam vets are retiring, and the military doing all it can to hold on to their pilots. It will again be a pilot's market. My prediction is 2013. And you know how good my predictions are.

 

[PC12Cowboy]

Waco...
thanks for the support, but by 2013 I will be foreclosed on my house and living off of lawn mowing business I started..wont be able to afford to fly..Hoping one of the regional kicks in

 

[Whine Lover]

Avantair still have a training agreement for new hires?

Unfortunately...YES.

I successfully completed the phone interview and after being invited to Florida to interview the following week I was sent their briefing package which included the $22,000 one year training contract.

I called immediately and respectfully declined the offer.

I still believe Avantair is a class act, with a helluva business plan and product, and I would still love to work there.

However, I can not and will not sign a training agreement that could leave me on the street, jobless, and with a fresh new debt of many thousands of dollars.

And yes folks...training contracts ARE enforceable and Avantair's is written so well that you would have NO recourse if you decided to leave for personal reasons, lost your First Class medical (that's right having to default to a second class medical is grounds for termination ) or heaven forbid they just decided they didn't like you.

YKM

 

[BoilerUP]

$22k training contract....one year...for an airplane that doesn't require a type rating???

 

[netjetwife]

Sorry, Cowboy... Hopefully things will turn around in the next 2 years. Good luck with the new business.

WL....wow! A classic example of the need to read the fine print. That situation is just one more reason I'd like to see industry standards that provide a base level of fair treatment to frac pilots. Kudos to you for standing up for yourself. NJW

 

[gutshotdraw]

$22k training contract....one year...for an airplane that doesn't require a type rating???

I thought it weighs more than 12,500 lbs ergo type required. Anyone?

 

[gutshotdraw]

Of course, I'm not disputing the notion that a training contract, even in this economy, is TOTAL crap.

 

[hangarrat]

I thought it weighs more than 12,500 lbs ergo type required. Anyone?

12,100 - no type required. Training is at FSI.

 

[glasspilot]

No, it's a 12,100 lb plane. No type required.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of the training contract. Truth be told I thought they got rid of it. I think it's a hold over from when everyone was hiring and they were afraid folks would come here from 121 to get the corporate time and bail to some other frac or be a private Piaggio pilot in competition with them with their training.

Either way it's outdated in my opinion.

 

[wacoflyr]

12,100 pounds max gross, so no type required. Two plus years ago, when I hired in, the training contract was pro-rated over one year. My understanding is that people were let go within that time without the contract being enforced. I don't believe they would enforce it for an issue such as a medical. The contract, I think, is there to stop abuse. But I'm not management, so I can't say for certain.

A training contract is hardly unique. I'm not going to defend it or repudiate it, but I would rather work here than at various other fractionals that don't have training contracts. Industry wide standards on these matters would be a terrible mistake. I have standards that other pilots would not agree to, and I know that some of the fractionals have rules and unions that I don't want to work with. I respect the pilots who work there, and their right to choose. That would be pilots, by the way. Who work there.

The plane is fun, but busy. No type required, but the sim and checkride are more difficult than the only type I do have. Not much background to go on, but it certainly is more difficult than the four jets I have time in.

 

[wacoflyr]

We were all typing at once.

 

[hangarrat]

Of course, I'm not disputing the notion that a training contract, even in this economy, is TOTAL crap.

I have been here a long time and agree that training contracts are crap. That said, I also have heard about how much the company wasted on wanna be pilots who had no intention on sticking around. I have seen them leave just before check rides and within a week of getting out on the line. One guy said he had to leave because it was too hard to get into and out of the cockpit and another guy said that he had no idea how much work fractional was. I also know the company has never once used it against any one with a legitiment reason for leaving such as a lost medical, mother getting sick and needing to be taken care of or several other family oriented issues that caused crew members to have to make a tough decision to leave during the first year. So go ahead and start the mindless ranting about the terrible treatment of pilots and comments about how if the company was worth a sh!t they wouldn't have to use a training contract. They started out without a contract and some time after losing somewhere close to six figures on about 4 or 5 pilots, they had to explain the loss to the investors and owners?

 

[Paradoxus]

I have been here a long time and agree that training contracts are crap. That said, I also have heard about how much the company wasted on wanna be pilots who had no intention on sticking around. I have seen them leave just before check rides and within a week of getting out on the line. One guy said he had to leave because it was too hard to get into and out of the cockpit and another guy said that he had no idea how much work fractional was. I also know the company has never once used it against any one with a legitiment reason for leaving such as a lost medical, mother getting sick and needing to be taken care of or several other family oriented issues that caused crew members to have to make a tough decision to leave during the first year. So go ahead and start the mindless ranting about the terrible treatment of pilots and comments about how if the company was worth a sh!t they wouldn't have to use a training contract. They started out without a contract and some time after losing somewhere close to six figures on about 4 or 5 pilots, they had to explain the loss to the investors and owners?

All fair points, however you still fail miserably at effective justification. Training contracts, most especially where no type-training is involved, are more about trapping workers than protection of investment in them.

To wit: recovery of funds lost to a migrating pilot from a shop is never a likelihood.

INESCAPABLE FACT: if the job was so goddam empyrean none would leave, at least not enough to make an appreciable impact. This is why so many operations (ones that provide actual type-ratings) simply do not have them.

Indeed, what is more likely: company work rules/policies/compensation are largely inadequate/undesirable, or that the majority of the pilot workforce are "wannabe pilots" (or some such)?

I certainly don't advocate the dereliction of contractual obligation of any sort, however, training bonds are major red flags to any serious professional, red flags that demand serious consideration.

In this respect, one may view them in the same manner one may view prenuptial agreements. Arguments pro are not without merit, however, isn't marriage (like employment) a partnership based on trust?

 

[johnsonrod]

While I disagree with the PFT issue in general, I do see some of the rationale from the management side. They are looking for some solid commitment up-front from applicants. We are talking about mutual commitment. There is always a risk of losing a new pilot to a competitor or to an airline (returning furloughee) within the first year or two, and one way of ensuring that there is commitment is through a training bond or agreement. This helps to reduce risk on management's side.

Pilots should know about the training contracts up front - if they are aware, then they should make a decision about continuing the application process or not. It becomes their choice.

Again, I am not a training contracts fan at all, but I also try to look at things through management's eyes.

 

[Paradoxus]

While I disagree with the PFT issue in general, I do see some of the rationale from the management side. They are looking for some solid commitment up-front from applicants. We are talking about mutual commitment. There is always a risk of losing a new pilot to a competitor or to an airline (returning furloughee) within the first year or two, and one way of ensuring that there is commitment is through a training bond or agreement. This helps to reduce risk on management's side.

Pilots should know about the training contracts up front - if they are aware, then they should make a decision about continuing the application process or not. It becomes their choice.

Again, I am not a training contracts fan at all, but I also try to look at things through management's eyes.

One of the many problems with the structural philosophies of aviation management today.

Why bother creating a decent place to work: one where people would be foolish to leave, when you can retain them at gunpoint?

A pragmatic solution in the short term, to be sure, but one banefully lacking in imagination; a solution that is totally benighted to the incalculable value of a content workforce. A pilot group that feels they are trusted, valued, and exceedingly taken-care-of will always be of more use than one that is met with hostility.

Speaking of acts of general management hostility, a training bond is the ultimate. The most valuable resource that a flight department has are the pilots. When presented with silly ultimatums like training bonds before they have even begun work, the Rube Goldberg machine of hostility and mistrust is set in motion: sapping efficiency, productivity, and most critically--employee morale.

I can view this hideous practice from management's point of view, much in the same way I can view the Holodomor from Stalin's. Villainous motivations are always more believable when one understands them. To wit: training contracts are outrageous attacks on employees.

Understanding the reasons for them is not requisite in the evaluation of their ethical and morale-crushing consequences.

The cycle of idiot aviation management in this regard begins like this: In the beginning, training bonds are nonexistent. The first generation of employees are hired, many flee because of working conditions, matters of compensation, etc. Instead of addressing the problems that drive pilots away from the operation, they instead find it easier to simply trap subsequent generations of new-hires with contracts for providing the training necessary for performing the job.

Pragmatic in the short term, as I previously detailed, but ultimately detrimental to worker productivity. From the onset, management-employee relations are antagonistically set against one another, and the employees relegate themselves to do their fundamental jobs, and seldom anything more.

Take a good look at the shops whom have either done away with training bonds, or simply never had them. Would you wager you'd be inclined to leave them in the first year, if hired?

Training contracts are warning shots across the bow by managment, signals they are at battlestations, antagonistically-aligned against their employees the moment they set foot on property.

 

[CessnaFan]

Objective?

No bias? Negative.

Sorry mate, there's proud and then there's blowing management. I'm an objective observer, with no bias either way.

 

[Paradoxus]

No bias? Negative.

I do my best. Everyone's got a little bias in them, eh?

 

[hangarrat]

Why bother creating a decent place to work: one where people would be foolish to leave, when you can retain them at gunpoint?

Those poor souls who are finally released from the unscrupulous contracts that they were obviously tricked into signing would then flee from their oppressors. Attrition rates would soar and although the company training cost would be higher, the savings on the pilot salaries would more than offset the amount since no idiot would work for a dishonest, immoral, deceitful, ruthless aviation management outfit for any longer than they have to. But those evil rascally managers would be the ultimate winners because they were able to reap the rewards stolen from the mouths of the children of the meek and mild righteous pilot group that merely wanted to give of their hearts and souls to allow passengers to share a memorable travel experience with each other... right? :nuts:

We have to do something about this, we have to stop this now before all that is good in this would crumbles to the ground and the wicked evil business man kills all the babies, poisons the water, and pollutes the air we breathe all to feed their insatiable greed... right?

ok, i gotta stop drinking and posting :laugh:

 

[NJAowner]

Let me start -- I do not think PFT is good.

But in many other professions, industries, etc., people have restrictive covenants/non-compete/confidentiality provisions which prevent them from easily migrating from one job to another close by if the company gives them specialized training or proprietary knowledge. I add the "close by" because in many situations if you wanted to move from Maryland to Nevada, the provisions may not be enforceable. However, in aviation, your "office" is mobile. Therefore, it may be tough to keep you from working for a competitor -- so the practical alternative is a reimbursement of training costs if you leave before XX months. For example, if I take you someone off the street and train you to be a Class A auto mechanic technician, if you do not stay with the dealership for 2 years you may be refrained from working at another dealership within 50 miles for 1 or 2 years or repay the company for your training. Others use the union rules to keep you from moving too soon. In the end, it has the same effect and the reimbursement (which I note is different than paying up front for your training).

 

[hangarrat]

If the training contract was a tool used to coerce pilots into staying at a disreputable avaiation company and:
1. the training contract duration is one year, and
2. there is no requirement to sign another contract prior to attending recurrent training,
then year two attrition would be reflected in the company's pilot seniority list.

Paradoxus, Me thinketh you doth thinketh way too mucheth