I'm going to build my multi time by PFT

[AAflyer]

John,

If you feel you do not have the experience and then as a direct correlation the knowledge to teach in a small piston single, what makes you think you have experience to in a short time fly 30-50 people in a commercial airliner?

Just curious, I could care less if you PFT or not, just looking for your reasoning. You say you do not have the EXPERIENCE to teach, but what experience do you have flying an airliner?

As you said, flight instructing is more than just teaching a lazy eights, and I am here to tell you flying airliner is a lot more than putting on uniform and flipping on the autopilot. Once again just curious as to why you think the way you do.

AA

 

[John2375]

.....

John,

If you feel you do not have the experience and then as a direct correlation the knowledge to teach in a small piston single, what makes you think you have experience to in a short time fly 30-50 people in a commercial airliner?

Just curious, I could care less if you PFT or not, just looking for your reasoning. You say you do not have the EXPERIENCE to teach, but what experience do you have flying an airliner?

As you said, flight instructing is more than just teaching a lazy eights, and I am here to tell you flying airliner is a lot more than putting on uniform and flipping on the autopilot. Once again just curious as to why you think the way you do.


Exactly - I feel inexperienced, partly because I am in terms of hours, but also because I haven't had the chance to fly regularly in the last couple years and keep my skills sharp.
I felt doing a program like mutliengine.net would give me some "assurance" or whatever you want to call it - If I do the CFI route, whicH I still might, I'd like to rent an aircraft first for a number of hours to regain my confidence before I start teaching. 100 hours of multi-time for only $4500 is such a great deal is seems worth it.
No I do'nt feel like I could fly an airliner and am not looking to do that!! I know you have to work your way up the ladder rungs and that's fine - but I just don't want to slip off on the first rung
yes I had considered the 727 internship and maybe it'd have eaten me alive - I don't know...I never considered KeyLime becasue everyone says its so horrible and leads only to one other company which pays really bad with low quality of life. But when the price of the 727 program went from $12000 to $33000, NO WAY! That's a downpayment on a house...a couple new cars, a year of college for my stepdaughter (well in 10 years that'sll probably only cover a week, but hey...) I'm not going to blow my lifesavings to do something like that...
I have the highest respect for airline pilots cuz I know it's a hard job, and for CFI"s because it's a hard job too, and I want to be sure I'm qualified to do it myself, whatever it is.

 

[NYCPilot]

FYI-

Most pilots who get their CFI's don't have much experience either. Many start with barely 300 hrs. You can't expect to be a great teacher when you first start giving dual. It takes some time to understand how to teach and be a better instructor. When you first start out as a CFI you're going to be very conservative and cautious (and should always be). You'll establish personal limitations that will continue to grow when you have more confidence. You'd be amazed at how much you do know when it comes to teaching a primary student. Everything that seems routine and easy is incredibly overwhelming for most students at first.

 

[ePilot22]

Let me count the ways....

There are many different ways to acheive the same result in aviation. We've all found our own way. No one can tell you what is the right way, but they can tell you what the WRONG way is, the way NOT to go.

John,

Now that you've got to hear some opinions other than mine, it's nice to see a change in your attitude. That first post was bad! You can't just come in here and thumb you nose at these pilots and expect them to respect you. Won't happen! Explore your options. The opportunity is out there, you just have to put forth a little effort and preperation. Invest some time and you'll get to where you want to go!

I know that some of these post have been rough, but that's why I didn't think anyone would post what you did in here. (I still think it was stupid to do so) I hope what they had to say helped you in your aviation choices and career.

Don't pay to do a job! Please!

Best of luck,

eP.

 

[John2375]

:beer:

 

[Hand Commander]

I say do what you want. Personally I don't see the logic in paying for something that you can get for free or even better, get paid to do. I have never paid for anything beyond my ratings, occasional rentals for fun, and currency/BFR flights. I've also never instructed a day in my life because I don't feel I would make a great instructor (and like you, I hate doing things badly or with the "just get by attitude"). The longer you stick around in aviation, the more people you'll meet. The more you meet, the more leads on potential employment you'll come across. If people want to hire you, they will train you. There are enough operators out there that treat pilots like their doing them a big favor by even letting them work there. I'd rather not promote this type of attitude and PFT definitely does. Banner towing is a great time builder, but I question why you have to pay up front. Training contracts are pretty standard at a lot of places, but thats because operators get stung when pilots jump ship right after getting spooled up. Its also not charged unless you leave early, and its normally prorated depending on how long you stay. This is pretty fair in my opinion, but if you have to cough up two grand to get checked out, you won't get that money back. The owner has your money and then gets work out of you. Still PFT. I would look into drop zones (flying skydivers is a riot), aerial survey/photography, pipeline patrol, traffic watch, or VFR part 135 operators if you don't want to instruct. Outfits like these typically hire low timers, will train for free and are relatively easy to do. I know the logbook doesn't grow quick enough when you're starting out, but hang in there, it gets better and way more fun. Good luck with whatever you decide.
Peace.

 

[UZAInstructor]

Just to give you a heads-up on the consequences of doing a PFT/PFJ type deal, based on personal experience. I'm a CFI, and while working as an instructor met a guy who flies a King Air 300. He's a furloughed USAir pilot, and I currently fly contract trips with him. Started flying with him at about 1000 hrs tt. Great pay ($350/day contract rate), great experience, and a nice intro to turbine flying at relatively low time. This guy intentionally gets low time guys in the right seat to help them get some multi-turbine SIC and experience, to help us further our careers; fantastic sorta guy that we'd all be lucky to meet when starting our careers. Through many discussions we've had while at cruise, I've learned his opinion of these types of programs. He absolutely will NOT offer that right seat to anyone who has done a PFT/PFJ type program. So, I caught a lucky break with this guy. Point of my rambling diatribe here is to say, you wouldn't get that lucky break if you decide to go the PFT route............I'm sure my experience is not some isolated incident.

I too was somewhat nervous about how good an instructor I would be when I started. But I decided that I couldn't just assume I wouldn't be any good, without giving it a try. Sure, I feel for my first student or 2, as I was more or less just staying a couple steps ahead of them, at least in terms of teaching. But, after the first 2 students, it started getting easier, and now it's nothing to take a student from 0 time to pilot. Now I'm sitting at 1500 tt, with about 100 hrs SIC in that King Air (putting my total multi at 250 or so) and I'm able to be somewhat choosy in what I want to do from here. Only took me just over a year to go from 250 hrs to where I am now, getting paid for it the whole time (enough to have my own fairly nice apartment, and pay all my bills while still having some fun). On top of all that, I'm easily 100 times the pilot I was just over a year ago. You'd be amazed how much you learn in terms of decision making and command when you instruct. It's not all just "useless hrs spent in the pattern and teaching maneuvers".

I sincerely hope after I've laid out at least one real potential consequence to PFT and clearly stated the benefits of doing it the "old fashioned way", you'll not even do so much as consider the PFT route. What others have said above is true, it cheapens the profession, and if you decide to do it, somewhere down the road (when it's too late) you'll realize you've shot yourself in the foot.

 

[taloft]

Pay for 100 hours of multiengine and you'll have 100 more hours of multiengine.

Earn 100 hours of multiengine by becoming a respected pilot/instructor/135/whatever paid pilot and you will be a professional. You will have cut your teeth on much more single time, you will have had to deal with more weather, more people, more fellow pilots, more passengers, more FAA, more situational awareness, more experience, and more everything. You will also surprisingly end up with more and better quality multiengine time, better technique and habit patterns and why they are important, and contacts who hold you in mutual respect.

You will have gotten paid for having people/boxes/whatever entrust you with their safety. You will understand the authority/responsibility of command. You will understand fear and how to use it or master it in yourself and others. When you finally arrive at that job you've been striving for, you will be better prepared and not wash out during training (yes it does happen to the unprepared).

Shortcuts are only good for shortcutting yourself on the good things aviation has to offer. You will never become a better pilot by putting on a prettier uniform.

 

[ATRCAPT]

Just to give you a heads-up on the consequences of doing a PFT/PFJ type deal, based on personal experience. I'm a CFI, and while working as an instructor met a guy who flies a King Air 300. He's a furloughed USAir pilot, and I currently fly contract trips with him. Started flying with him at about 1000 hrs tt. Great pay ($350/day contract rate), great experience, and a nice intro to turbine flying at relatively low time. This guy intentionally gets low time guys in the right seat to help them get some multi-turbine SIC and experience, to help us further our careers; fantastic sorta guy that we'd all be lucky to meet when starting our careers. Through many discussions we've had while at cruise, I've learned his opinion of these types of programs. He absolutely will NOT offer that right seat to anyone who has done a PFT/PFJ type program. So, I caught a lucky break with this guy. Point of my rambling diatribe here is to say, you wouldn't get that lucky break if you decide to go the PFT route............I'm sure my experience is not some isolated incident.

I too was somewhat nervous about how good an instructor I would be when I started. But I decided that I couldn't just assume I wouldn't be any good, without giving it a try. Sure, I feel for my first student or 2, as I was more or less just staying a couple steps ahead of them, at least in terms of teaching. But, after the first 2 students, it started getting easier, and now it's nothing to take a student from 0 time to pilot. Now I'm sitting at 1500 tt, with about 100 hrs SIC in that King Air (putting my total multi at 250 or so) and I'm able to be somewhat choosy in what I want to do from here. Only took me just over a year to go from 250 hrs to where I am now, getting paid for it the whole time (enough to have my own fairly nice apartment, and pay all my bills while still having some fun). On top of all that, I'm easily 100 times the pilot I was just over a year ago. You'd be amazed how much you learn in terms of decision making and command when you instruct. It's not all just "useless hrs spent in the pattern and teaching maneuvers".

I sincerely hope after I've laid out at least one real potential consequence to PFT and clearly stated the benefits of doing it the "old fashioned way", you'll not even do so much as consider the PFT route. What others have said above is true, it cheapens the profession, and if you decide to do it, somewhere down the road (when it's too late) you'll realize you've shot yourself in the foot.

This is very true. PFT may seem like a shortcut to a regional job, but you'll pay for it later (not just the money!). When you get to that first 121 ground school you'll be in there with pilots who earned that class date the hard way. Military, flight instruction, night freight, etc. Do you really want to be the guy who stands up and says "I bought my job"? Trust me, you don't. Just be patient and earn your way. You'll be happier in the long run.

 

[AerroMatt]

Pay for 100 hours of multiengine and you'll have 100 more hours of multiengine.

Earn 100 hours of multiengine by becoming a respected pilot/instructor/135/whatever paid pilot and you will be a professional.

I couldn't have said it better myself. I run a small corporate flight dept nowadays, after a long road up the non-PFT route. Y'all know it... CFI, CFII, Fr8tDawg, 135 pax, 135 company instructor, CP at a small commuter that went out of business. I for one am NOT going to entrust the lives of my passengers to a PFT. That route does not build the decision making ability necessary to properly execute the duties of Pilot In Command. I will offer breaks to the CFI's I know that have earned their time the hard way.

Does anyone realize that when Sen Paul Wellstone died, there was a PFT kid in the right seat? I often wonder what went on in that cockpit that morning. Had the right seater had more experience, maybe he could have pulled his captain's fat from the fire before they stalled and spun in. A CFII can instantly recognize Fixation before the student gets a full blown case of vertigo. They've seen it plenty of times.

Go ahead and throw your money away John, if you wish. You probably will anyway. Just don't bother sending me a resume in the future... I won't consider you.

 

[TheGreatChecko]

Dude,

If you are talking about a place like Gulfstream in FLL... run don't walk from that operation!!

Like many have said....if anything, its just not worth the money!!!

Hiring minimums have gotten to the point that if you really want to fly, all it takes is a year or so of (hard) work as a CFI. You can find a job, the pay might suck, but it will suck less than if you had $50K in loans to pay off at the same time. Flying is expensive enough as it is!!!

Your pay doen't get magically better if you paid your way to that position, it sucks like everyone else's.

Its obvious that other pilot's opinions don't really matter to you, but I'm sure at some point, the money will.

PS If you are talking about a place where you get your ratings for a flat price...then it MIGHT be worth it (if you have the money). Ask lots of questions, make sure you understand EXACTLY what you are paying for and what you aren't, and if they say guarenteed interview, ala DCA look somewhere else.

The only job I have ever had where someone can legally try to kill you.

Amen Brother...