I'm going to build my multi time by PFT

[ePilot22]

Oh no!!!

Breaking it down to an hourly rate and seeing the savings is the ONLY reason I accept for going the PFT route.

Expense is no justifcation! Taking a job from a qualified pilot by BUYING that seat is WRONG! There is NO reason for it!!!

Flying has always been expensive, it stays relative to everything else!

I've talked to guys that paid $6 an hour for a plane and $6 for an instructor and they thought that was outragous!!!

But lets look at this another way...

How much are you really SAVING when you're PAYING to fly a job that would PAY you (or someone qualified)? Do you see the oxymoron? Saving money buying a job? PAYING TO WORK! The only ones saving money are the fat cats that are being paid! I don't understand why this isn't making sense!!!

DON'T PFT, PFW or PAY FOR FUEL! If they're already going there then they should be paying you!!!


eP.

 

[John2375]

Mr. ePilot22,
Please go to http://www.multiengine.net and http://www.simcenter.cc and write to them, expressing your views.
I don't know what sort of reply they'll give you, but I'd certainly be interested - let us know, ok?

 

[ePilot22]

Out of stamps!

John2375,

I don't want to hear what they have to say. Why would I ask a thief why he steals. I don't care why, it's WRONG. They "OFFER" this opportunity, but it's a guise. All they're going to tell me is how great it is and try and dispel any PFT notion anyway. They're selling (that's SELLING) that program, they're not going to do anything that won't sell it.

You seem to understand why KeySlime sucks. The other two program are the same idea, it's only a varition on how they offer it.

If you are working on your ratings or certs. I'm sure that there are other pilots at your airport that would split the cost of flying with you. It's fun! Go where you want, when you want. You ARE PIC!!! Not someone's biatch being told where to go and what to do and paying for them to shaft you!

Enjoy the time now. Soon enough you'll have a boss and management will treat you like crap, but at least you'll be getting paid. Don't pay for it.

Take your ticket and fly! Forget the twin, the turbine and especially the jet! They all do the same thing as the piston single. Flight is flight!

Also try instructing. It's a challenge. You'll learn more about flying than you ever knew and you will become a better pilot and person for it! Right now you seem to have the wrong impression of flight instruction. It's not about flying a traffic pattern or manuevers. It's about teaching! Sharing the joy of flight with another.

Again, forget building multi time. Build flying experience and learn. There will be plenty of time to fly multi and turbine and jets. You may one day WANT to go back and fly a little single engine Cessna or Piper. Who knows? Don't rush through it, take your time!

eP.

 

[big pimpn']

John2375,

You gibbering retard, why don’t you do us all a favor and go back to your special ed class and tell all of your Ritalin snorting friends how you dream of becoming a real life airline pilot. PFT is like going to a diploma mill and paying five hundred dollars for a bachelors degree in dip$hitology. Oh wait, you are a dip$hit. I’m sorry! I guess I should have more tolerance for those with special need handicaps. You are obviously the type of person who always takes the easy way out. Instead of putting in that extra little effort, you are more than happy to settle with mediocrity.

You are like a dog trying to lick up its own vomit, too stupid to even realize the consequences of your own actions. PFT is going to take more money out of your pocket in the long run than the money you spent in the first place. And what pi$$es myself, and every other airline pilot off, is the fact that degenerates like yourself are taking money out of our pockets. You are truly a pathetic creature and I hope nothing but the absolute worst for you and you’re paid for career.

 

[John2375]

back at'ya there tough guy
:uzi:

John2375,

You gibbering retard, why don’t you do us all a favor and go back to your special ed class and tell all of your Ritalin snorting friends how you dream of becoming a real life airline pilot. PFT is like going to a diploma mill and paying five hundred dollars for a bachelors degree in dip$hitology. Oh wait, you are a dip$hit. I’m sorry! I guess I should have more tolerance for those with special need handicaps. You are obviously the type of person who always takes the easy way out. Instead of putting in that extra little effort, you are more than happy to settle with mediocrity.

You are like a dog trying to lick up its own vomit, too stupid to even realize the consequences of your own actions. PFT is going to take more money out of your pocket in the long run than the money you spent in the first place. And what pi$$es myself, and every other airline pilot off, is the fact that degenerates like yourself are taking money out of our pockets. You are truly a pathetic creature and I hope nothing but the absolute worst for you and you’re paid for career.

 

[John2375]

I see your point ePilot22...just wish you saw mine more clearly but oh well enough's enough.
Flight is flight -very true - I'm sure despite our disagreements over this issue we could have a great time flying somewhere together or having a couple beers (after the flight ofcourse lol)

It's probably true what you say at the bottom there- seems so many guys I read about in AOPA who've been airline pilots want to buy a small airplane single engine and toot around in that..even several of the astronauts like that.

Aerobatics...that's something I'd love to explore - don't know if I'd be any good at it but certainly would love to take some lessons in it.

Good luck to you
:beer:

John2375,

I don't want to hear what they have to say. Why would I ask a thief why he steals. I don't care why, it's WRONG. They "OFFER" this opportunity, but it's a guise. All they're going to tell me is how great it is and try and dispel any PFT notion anyway. They're selling (that's SELLING) that program, they're not going to do anything that won't sell it.

You seem to understand why KeySlime sucks. The other two program are the same idea, it's only a varition on how they offer it.

If you are working on your ratings or certs. I'm sure that there are other pilots at your airport that would split the cost of flying with you. It's fun! Go where you want, when you want. You ARE PIC!!! Not someone's biatch being told where to go and what to do and paying for them to shaft you!

Enjoy the time now. Soon enough you'll have a boss and management will treat you like crap, but at least you'll be getting paid. Don't pay for it.

Take your ticket and fly! Forget the twin, the turbine and especially the jet! They all do the same thing as the piston single. Flight is flight!

Also try instructing. It's a challenge. You'll learn more about flying than you ever knew and you will become a better pilot and person for it! Right now you seem to have the wrong impression of flight instruction. It's not about flying a traffic pattern or manuevers. It's about teaching! Sharing the joy of flight with another.

Again, forget building multi time. Build flying experience and learn. There will be plenty of time to fly multi and turbine and jets. You may one day WANT to go back and fly a little single engine Cessna or Piper. Who knows? Don't rush through it, take your time!

eP.

 

[taloft]

...however this guy also said that the quality of the flying done is so much better in the PFT programs compared to spending hours in the local pattern. W/the exception of teaching instrument skills, that's pretty true too - you're teaching material that'll be used many times down the road - but so much is never going to be used.
"Howdy folks, welcome to flight 195 - today we'll be cruising at 35,000 feet and in an hour we'll be practicing lazy 8's and we'll be making a simulated short-field takeoff and I hope you've got good stomachs because we're going to do some spin recovery and power-off stalls too!

Hey, you don't want to instruct, that's fine. For the sake of future pilots, please don't. However, berating people who are earning their way into a seat through instruction sure isn't going to further your cause.

Personally, I learned more about flying and people from instruction than any job since.

Why is it fools always say instruction is just spending hours in the local pattern? Oh yeah, that's because you've never done it. Get off your high horse for a second and go teach some night multi instruction in some real weather. That takes the real sack you say you have by going the easy route.

Go out and try to keep yourself alive in the pattern with someone who's never landed a plane before. Talk someone through a landing without your touching the controls the first time they ever set foot into an aircraft. Learn how to get past someone's fear and put them at ease. You do that and you'll know what it means to be a competent instructor and pilot. Until then, stop berating something of which you obviously know nothing about.

Oh, and be sure to bring this attitude to your future "job". Captains will just love you for it.

If you want to PFT, that's fine with me, but don't berate the rest of the folks who earn their way in a pathetic attempt to justify why you won't need such valuable experience in the future. And it is valuable in ways apparently you will never know.

 

[FlierDude]

John 2375,

Are you sure you know what PFT is? Of the 2 sites you reference, the first is aircraft rental and the second is 121 'training' with a 6-month job guarantee afterwards. Of course, you've researched the latter and they employ 100% of their students, right?

Of the CP's I know, none would consider hiring a PFT'er. My first turbine job was a good example. That CP explained one big reason he selected me was because I expected a normal salary. Said he had plenty of applicants who would do the job for little or no pay, and he knew he'd get what he paid for.

Cutting corners will show up elsewhere in your career, it will be impossible to hide. You'll be the guy dozing in ground school, because what-the-hey, you got hired, right? That ground school stuff is for losers, you already know most of it anyway.

There's really only one person who benefits by you going PFT. The guy you made the check out to.

 

[John2375]

Well there seem to be gray-areas of PFT operations! People who are 100% dead set against the programs will then consider something like the http://www.multiengine.net program, maybe cuz it only would cost $4500 instead of $33000! (See the original post)
I can see why it has its downsides, dont' get me wrong. Believe it or not I"m not dead-set FOR doing it - it's just an option, one of several, and I just get more worked up about people overlooking what I"m saying - it's their way or the highway.
I know teaching is valuable experience, but being a GOOD TEACHER is important to me, and I dont feel I would be RIGHT NOW. Because I dont' have experience - I know there's plenty of newly minted CFI's w/400 hours who are great, but there's certainly so much to be said for experience - flying w/someone w/4 THousand hours as opposed to 400 has to mean something.
Contrary to what was said earlier, I hold CFI's in the HIGHEST regard - I'm not belittling what they do in the least - if I thought it were so easy, obviously i would just go and do that, since I always take the easy way out (according to other posts
Truthfully I'd like to build some experience, get my confidence up, and then pursue a CFI ticket, eventhough that's backwards of how it's usually done.
I just don't want to be one of those CFI's that people say "oh don't fly w/him...he's no good" I want people to say "fly w/John - he's a great pilot, great guy and will teach you a lot" I've had both kinds myself - instructor's who obviously were just timebuilding until they could get out...instructors who were just lousy teachers, and a great one - a guy who was an outstanding pilot, even better teacher, and who genuinely loved teaching..I learned so much from him.
I'd love to get a job flying banners or whatever and will certainly look into it...but I just get frustrated that people disagree w/what I say when they're facts.
Maybe you don't like it, or disagree, but it's a FACT that I've spoken w/those in a hiring position who said they wouldn't hold a PFT program against an applicant, just like it's a fact you've spoken w/a CP who said they wouldn't consider a PFTer. Obviously it depends on the person...but I'm just trying to say it's not clear-across the board that it's BAD and you're blackballing yourself or whatever - maybe some outfits will look down their nose and toss your application before ever calling you, but there's plenty of outfits that have no problem with it.
I challenged ePilot22 to email/call the simcenter or the multiengine.net place and express his thoughts to them - but he declined, saying it was pointless basically - I think it'd be very interesting and worth it to hear what they would say to someone like him who's so deadset against it.
So maybe ANYone here could write to them via email and tell them you think it's bad for industry, bad for pilots, bad all around, and maybe they'll ignore it but more than likely, they'll reply and defend their position and I and others would be interested in how they view someone who's so against them.
:beer:

 

[mar]

Blah, blah, blah

Whatever.

We've all been thru this crap before. You can do whatever your little heart desires.

PFT is *so* 1999.

 

[mcjohn]

I can't quite put my finger on it but something just ain't right with you John2375. Call or email the places yourself and tell them about it.
What's wrong with you?

 

[Hand Commander]

This website is great for getting advice, posting your thoughts, and evaluating responses and suggestions by INDUSTRY PROFESSIONALS on an anonymous basis. Its great to see someone with very little experience continually ignore what this website is designed to do. Dude, people are trying to help you. Why you can't recognize this is beyond me, but whatever, go do what you think will get you ahead. By the way, get ahead to what? Whats the hurry? Whats 100 hours of multi time going to get you when you'll still have under 500 hours total time? Its amusing to read while I drink beer and update my logbook with all the hours I'VE BEEN PAID to fly. Towing banners sounds like a good gig. In fact I've heard there's a place where you can pay to get the banner towing skills. Sweet hook up man, you should look into it.

 

[John2375]

I can't quite put my finger on it but something just ain't right with you John2375. Call or email the places yourself and tell them about it.
What's wrong with you?

Nothing's wrong w/me - I said for him to do it himself so he could see what I was talking about fIRST HAND! I've ALREADY done that and reported the results here, only to be told I'm wrong and dont know what I"M talking about! :nuts:

 

[John2375]

This website is great for getting advice, posting your thoughts, and evaluating responses and suggestions by INDUSTRY PROFESSIONALS on an anonymous basis. Its great to see someone with very little experience continually ignore what this website is designed to do. Dude, people are trying to help you. Why you can't recognize this is beyond me, but whatever, go do what you think will get you ahead. By the way, get ahead to what? Whats the hurry? Whats 100 hours of multi time going to get you when you'll still have under 500 hours total time? Its amusing to read while I drink beer and update my logbook with all the hours I'VE BEEN PAID to fly. Towing banners sounds like a good gig. In fact I've heard there's a place where you can pay to get the banner towing skills. Sweet hook up man, you should look into it.

I'm not continually ignoring it at all! In fact I'm interested in what everyone says and it sometimes almost convinces me - IGNORING? THat's everyone on this board in response to my posts! No matter what I say, I"m told that I couldn't possibly been told that - I tell you I've gotten responses from people saying nothing is wrong w/PFT yet I"m told I didn't! NOthing's more frustrating than that - I respect your opinions (even though you don't respect mine) but facts are facts. That's all I"m saying - listen to the FACTS I tell you - you can have your own opinion, but don't tell me EVERY employer looks down at PFTers when I just told you (several times) that although some do, NOT ALL DO -if they all did, why would ANYONE do a program like that/ Why put a few thousand bucks down to end your career?? Obviously they're helpful for MORE than just the company that does it and makes big $$ off pilots, but also for the pilots themselves, otherwise we'd be kamikaze's when it came to our career!

 

[RichardRambone]

I think everyones pretty tired of this one. Obviously you're going to do what you want but shelling out dough to fly CAN be avoided. There are 135 places that you can get hired at with low multi time and then upgrade into the multi stuff, all while getting paid to fly. I do agree that why pay for multitime when your overall is so low. Get a job flying and getting paid and then when your 135 mins come around and if you dont have near enough multi then do your PFT thing. If your going to do it anyway I say at least get the most out of the "get paid to fly" thing while you can.

 

[Lilah]

John2375,

You can divide most people on this issue into one of two camps. Despite being one who has done the ME.net routine, I strongly suggest you seriously consider what RichardRambone and taloft have shared. PFT (or in this case PFW as some have called it) needs to be taken in context relative to one's total time, and how you got the time you do have.

ME.net does not provide the same "quality" of time as instructing, that's for sure, the vast majority is spent in cruise flight. You need to be honest with yourself, and realize this. If this is where you have the majority of your twin time, there's no assurance you're going to have an "A" game to bring to the table if you're hired and sent out to fly an older C-402 solo, at night, with no AP, in weather, down to minimums. There's the potential to be a real safety risk to yourself if you think you're an ace because you've got 100me in your book. Flying over the gulf in relatively good weather during the day with two crew just isn't the same.

I respect anybody who done the CFI routine.

Lilah

 

[freightdogfred]

ePilot22 wanted me to start a thread in here about paying for training which I think is an excellent way to advance your career and which I will be doing in the coming months.
I am NOT a teacher and certainly am not going to teach something I have little experience in, so the CFI route is out for me.
I will be attending a program (not sure which one yet) that will allow me to gain valuable experience, leap-frog over the ones who are stuck-in-the-mud doing it the "right" way (just to prove a point i thinK) and will gain the necessary foot-in-the-door so hard to comeby in this industry.
Apprently he thinks his opinion is the only one that counts, and that leads me to believe he can't afford such a program and is jealous, and that's his problem. He said I wouldnt' have the balls to post this here, so I guess I got a nice sack now dont' I??!
My views /thoughts on PFT are wellknown and since I have spoken w/potential employers about these programs and THEY HAVE NO PROBLEM with it, I have no problem standing behind my beliefs since it's only those of you on these boards who seem to have such an issue with it.
There you go.
imp:

Give me the 30 grand and you can have my job, it's a brand new shiny jet...

 

[bell47]

hey there big shot....

If you think you have such big a big set why don't you tell us your real name and pilots cert. number so we can add you to a few list. If you think "no way, I'm not stupid,I don't want to ruin my career " then you must have some idea of what is right and wrong to do to get a flying job. Paying for flying lessons is OK, Paying to build a lttle time is OK but don't ever, EVER pay for something that a pilot trying to make a living could do and get paid for it himself. This is basically the same as "crossing the picket line" or being a scab. Now with that said, I personally am not in a union nor am afilliated with one in any shape form or fashion, but it all boils down to what is right and wrong.Don't ruin it for everyone esle by paying to do something that they should be paying you for.

 

[pilotmejiaj]

John2375,

What alot of people on here are trying to say (some tactfully some rudely) is that PFT hurts our industry badly. It belittles our job. Before I started instructing and when I was instructing, I was looking at Gulfstream as a possibility for me cause of the same reason....wanted to progress my career faster. I didn't understand the airline industry until I was in it. After getting in it I realize that it is a great industry but one that is very fu#ked up. We all work long hours, away from our friends and family for days, and carry more responsibiliy in a day than most carry in there life. But yet we all see our wages and benifits go down the tube mainly because of PFJ or PFT mentality that airline management are starting to take on us. Remember, they NEED us. So if they NEED us, why would you have to pay for something they NEED. What I am trying to say is that if you do deside to do the PFT option to further your career.....in the long term you will be hurting your and our careers. You mentioned that you wanted to learn from experienced pilots

..........but there's certainly so much to be said for experience - flying w/someone w/4 THousand hours as opposed to 400hours...........

I may not have 4000hrs. but many people on here do and have told you what they think. Again, this is my opinion so please don't take this as a personal bash against you. Eventually you will realize the problem in this industry and understand why we all feel so strongly about this. Until then, enjoy your flying now because when you start doing it as a job......well....... it's still fun but it is exactly that.....a job.

 

[John2375]

If you think you have such big a big set why don't you tell us your real name and pilots cert. number so we can add you to a few list. If you think "no way, I'm not stupid,I don't want to ruin my career " then you must have some idea of what is right and wrong to do to get a flying job. Paying for flying lessons is OK, Paying to build a lttle time is OK but don't ever, EVER pay for something that a pilot trying to make a living could do and get paid for it himself. This is basically the same as "crossing the picket line" or being a scab. Now with that said, I personally am not in a union nor am afilliated with one in any shape form or fashion, but it all boils down to what is right and wrong.Don't ruin it for everyone esle by paying to do something that they should be paying you for.

I could give my name/number, but I won't , not because I"m saying something I"m doing is wrong, but because I'm not stupid!! I know what others think so sometimes it's best to keep your mouth shut!
For example, I have no problem w/any race, ethinicity, etc - but I'm not against telling the odd joke w/"racy" material in it...but I'm not stupid enough to do in public where someone would automatcally jump to the conclusion I'm a racist!
I can see how it's bad for the industry, and once again I"m not COMMITTED to doing it this way - I'm still looking at differnet options. If I could get a job banner towing or whatever I'd go that way..
Oh - ther'es a place (not the place in Daytona that apprently is horrible, but another place) that gets you a tailwheel endoresment, training in banner towing, all for $2000. Then you're employed for the March to September season, flying about 700-800 hours in that time...is that on the BAD list too because you have to pay something first??
Every other place I've contacted wants 50 hours tailwheel time - so if I got my tailwheel endorsement and then somewhere/somehow found a taildragger to fly around for 50 horus...what's the difference? I'd still be paying some amount of money to get those hours, and have no guarantee for a job. The other place at least will hire you after...what's the general concensus on this situation??