Ifs

[AvroGuy]

IAnyone can fly a single engine piston within 30 hours of instruction. Not everyone can pull G's, do acro, fly form and deal with 12 tweets in the pattern at once. You're not going to screen for that at IFS.

I don't think butter bars will have any problem with the 12 tweets in the pattern. I think they will deal just fine, now the 12 texans may be a problem..

 

[Mud Eagle]

I think you could scrap the whole program, send guys to the local FBO for 30 hours of straight and level flight and take-offs and landings, and still get very close to the same result. Some will do well in UPT, some will wash.

Well, that's exactly what they had for several years -- IFT. The result? They decided to standardize the program into IFS.

So, there had to be something there.

 

[Tweetdrvr]

In the old FSP days of T-41s at Hondo, it was all that was needed to send folks to the T-37. You could show up not knowing anything about flying, work very hard and do well at UPT.

Of course the more you knew about flying in general, the more time you had to study only the AF specifics such as the overhead pattern, EP standups, and the stuff they were trying to teach about high performance jet flying. So as long as they had the attitude of "I am here to become a better pilot and a military aviatior," they did well. If they had the "know-it-all" syndrome, then they suffered as many here on this and other past topics have alluded too. I too know of a guy in my Nav class at MHR who was a UPT washout with a CFI, so it does and will continue to happen.

Then T-41s went away and T-3s tried to replace them. Thanks to the troubles with that program, they too went away. For awhile we had dudes show up whose first airplane ride was their C2301 dollar ride in a Tweet. Some of them must have been reincarnated flying aces from previous wars, because I know of a few who FAIPed and got fighters as a follow on, and some who went direct to fighters.

Then the AF tried the go get 30 hours at the FBO. That was a waste of money. There was no standardization and apparently no syllabus. People who went through that program were utterly clueless and it seemed like the CFIs and the Flight Schools were more than happy to take their money and joyride for time building.

Then we advanced to the get your private at the FBOs. While the quality control was not the greatest, it gave them a base GK level of weather, airspace, some aerodynamics, some night time and some hood time. Having to take the Private Written gave them a good knowledge base, and already passing an FAA checkride seemed to boost their confidence a bit. There were still a few weak swimmers. Maybe the flight schools or examiners felt sorry for them or thought the military would take care of them. My first CFI many times said the AF would teach me something. I did not stay with that dude more than two lessons, but looking back I realize he did not know what he was talking about. People seem to have some misconceptions about what we teach and do not teach at UPT, so it is understandable.

Now that we have the T-6 and do more than we have in the past at non tower CTAF places (at least for AF UPT), this would be a good program to still have around. The new generation of T-6 students seems to take longer to catch on to what the weather means to them, the flying status, and the impacts upon their mission. The ones without prior GA (most) don't do as well cross country than their got a PPL IFT predecessors, especially on the radios and doing VFR arrivals.

I like the current IFS at Doss. It is well structured, teaches them standups and the pattern. It is standardized so there is some attrition of the weak swimmers. What I wish we could do is after we take them through that program, is to send the ones who graduate out to the FBOs to finish their PPL.

Discipline them first to our way of briefing, chair flying, aim point-air speed landings, and the emphasis on EPs, then let them go out and get some experience and more knowledge on how the aviation world works. I say this as one who started flying lessons before Nav school, got to solo, then came back 18 months later to finish my private as a rated Nav. I was a different, more disciplined, more prepared private student than before. Kinda like the analogy of going to charm school and learning all the fork ROE, then going to a barbeque where you eat with your hands and lick the sauce off your fingers. Folks who have never been to charm school have big troubles adapting to manners and such at the formal dinner, but folks who went to charm school are a little uncomfortable at first, but do just fine at the picnic, they just use more napkins and are a little neater. The military way of learning to fly is the formal dining room, with lots of rules and different forks.

 

[J D]

Just to clear up a few misconceptions. The current IFS syllabus at IFS is not 30 hours, it is now 13 rides with approx 18 hours of flight time with a solo and one checkride. A very short time to adapt to the AF way. Attrition is running approximately 10-15%. I think most folks would be very impressed with the program, especially how similar it is to a standard UPT squadron. Over 60-70% of the IP's are ex military with most of those being former Tweet/38 IP's. Chief Pilot was a former PIT SQ/CC.

BTW there were a few high timers (PPL/CPL) that struggled for failure to adapt.

 

[Birdstrike]

The current IFS syllabus at IFS is not 30 hours, it is now 13 rides with approx 18 hours of flight time with a solo and one checkride. A very short time to adapt to the AF way...

Still, it's gotta be better than going into UPT cold, no?

 

[talondriver]

From all my experience as an IP in AETC, I've come to this conclusion. All this stuff doesn't matter. I've seen studs with plenty of previous time and I've seen the ones that show up having never been in a airplane. It's all about being motivated to learn, retain and execute under lot's o' pressure...on a daily basis.

Here's a quote from an IP to studs on their first day in the flight room..."If you give us 100%, we'll give you 110%. If you give us 85%, you're f*cked."

 

[J D]

Still, it's gotta be better than going into UPT cold, no?

Strongly Agree!

The product that comes out of the current version of IFS is very well prepared for UPT. There are no surprises when the stud shows up at UPT. Wings have been very happy with how prepared the graduates of IFS are.

 

[Ih8AFYesmen]

Here's a quote from an IP to studs on their first day in the flight room..."If you give us 100%, we'll give you 110%. If you give us 85%, you're f*cked."

Good point, though one thing that you can't discount is timing. Back in the early 90's, when UPT production was cut back to 25%, you can give a 100% or even 120% and they were still looking to washout us out. I don't know how UPT is like thesedays but about 7-8 years ago, during yet another pilot shortage, you couldn't get rid of Stan even if they were dumb and dangerous. I remember flying with a stud on his last ride (third ride after 2 tacos in a row) before washingout, this kid could not fly to save his life and didn't even know his stuff. Long story short, I gave him the 3rd taco but the "upper leadership" reinstated Stan. Believe me, if there was ever a Santa, I was him.

 

[Twasilew]

The part that bothers me is sending a highly qualified Pilot through this program. You all have made some good points about a newbie learning the basics of weather, aimpoint/airspeed, navigation etc... But again, what the hell does a 1000 hour Pilot get out of it? Teaching them to chair fly and brief? Give me a break guys.

And a 10-15% wash out rate? You've got to be kidding me. What could you possibly be washing them out for? Acro, airsickness, G's...uh probably not. Academics...doubt it. Anyone who has graduated college could learn general aviation. Failure to adapt to what? The only thing I can imagine is your 1 in 100 who is just a plain a$$hole, and should have never been given the opportunity. You'll find that guy in every organization including active flying squadrons.

One other question...do you guys where nomex and fly around with gloves on?

I'm about 50/50 on the merits of the program for UPT candidates with no flying time. But sending anyone through this with any significant amount of flight time (PPL license) is a waste of tax dollars.

 

[whalefat]

I think you can get a waiver for IFS. Personally, I don't think I could have kept my sanity in a bug smasher at that point in my career. As far as it preparing you for UPT, if you don't have any experience that's a valid point. If you already know how to fly then you just live in your own world for the haze phase at UPT..... It's unfortunate that the air force doesn't send more experienced pilots to instruct at UPT, that'd make the program a lot better in some regards. It's not a knock on first assignment instructors personally, but there is only so much that you're going to know at that point. Then again, I'm just a traditional guard guy...what do I know?