If you're thinking about Bankruptcy...

[ShyFlyGuy]

Where is the balance in this law? Corporations are allowed to file BK and get away with murder. Look at UAL and USAirways.

Great frigging point, Fam. I can see both sides on this, and I doubt it would do any good to shout one way or the other, but if they're going to stick it to us, stick it to the Corporations too! Wouldn't that be the day that somethingg in politics were fair? Just dreaming.

Shy

 

[neflier]

That's one of the more assinine things I've read in a few weeks on here...

So let me ask you this: a 727 freighter Captain who has been working the U.S. Postal Service routes for a few years and considers his job fairly stable makes about $80k a year (4,600 a month after taxes) so he buys a $200,000 home - not exactly a mansion, just a 3 bedroom place to raise the kids far enough from the projects not to see crack whores on the corner. Year 2000 interest rates payment = $1,500 a month. Then he buys a $30,000 truck so he can get around - not a Porsche, just a Ford F150 truck: $400 a month. He still has student loans at about $200 a month, all total about $2,100 a month in debt - he's living on less than HALF of his income.

Then the contract is illegally single-sourced to FedEx - income GONE. Find a job at half the pay, about $2,300 a month. But he still has $2,100 a month in debt payments BEFORE he buys food for the wife and kids. Wife has a job that pays HER bills but not much more... Then September 11th happens and the guy gets furloughed and doesn't know when he gets to go back to work, so he finds a job on the side that only pays about $30k a year ($1,750 per month after taxes).

The above happened to me. NO CREDIT CARD DEBT, and I mean ZERO, ZILCH, so explain to me how irresponsible spending is a problem? Thank God for Chapter 13 BR that kept me from losing my house and my car and allowed me to drop the payments enough to survive, or should I just have let my family go without shelter, food, or clothing?

Guys like you always come out of the wood work on your high horse, but don't consider that not everyone fits into your neat little definition of "circumstance". Sometimes life deals you cards that you don't deserve; should you then get screwed even harder?

May you live to someday realize, FIRST HAND, what it's like to be on the receiving end of this equation.

Let me start by saying that I'm sorry for your experiences. It sounds like you were working for Express 1. I have many buddies who flew there.

Sooooo, you lost your job and had a shiny new $30K truck, costing $400/month? Why didn't you sell it immediately after losing your job and purchase something used and much more economical? You said that you had a job on the side making $30K. Why didn't you get second job to support your family? Do you think that you are above it? How does your wife's income factor into this? Where were you emergency fund and backup plans? How can you possibly work in aviation without one?

It's called living within your means and planning on the unexpected. The loss of a job should not spin you off into Ch 13. Instead of taking responsibility for yourself, getting a second job, selling the truck, etc, you decided to take the easy way out and stick me, and the rest of the population, with YOUR debt and piss poor decisions.

As far as being on the receiving end of this equation, I am currently furloughed from Indy. As a result of planning, emergency funds, etc, Ch 13 isn't even an option for me. I kept my skills up in another line of work and start next week at 2X my regional income. It burns me when guys are living paycheck to paycheck, lose their jobs and start screaming, "Poor me, I can't pay my bills. Let me have my neighbors cover my debt."

 

[flighter]

Neflier, how are your neighbors covering your debt if you go BK. Don't give me that crap about interest rate rising for everyone. Banks take it into account there will be loses and they have reserves to cover that. Consumers in the U.S. Have always lived beyond their means. Guess who drives the economy, the consumer that's who. How does that come about? with easy availability of credit that is. I wish consumers would truly live within their means, only one problem the freaking economy with come to a standstill. BTW, I have not ever declared BK. I use to be a manager at Citibank and saw first hand how easy credit was given out to kid's in college and I got the call on the day of rekoning when they went beyond their means with ne banks help.

 

[Lear70]

Let me start by saying that I'm sorry for your experiences. It sounds like you were working for Express 1. I have many buddies who flew there.

Yup... it sucked for a lot of us. I was one of the lucky ones that was able to stay in aviation, a lot of others weren't as fortunate.

Sooooo, you lost your job and had a shiny new $30K truck, costing $400/month? Why didn't you sell it immediately after losing your job and purchase something used and much more economical?

Have you ever purchased a new car? What happens after you drive it off the lot? That's riiiight, it depreciates several thousand dollars. If you tried to sell it six months later, you'd find that you couldn't get enough money to pay it off, it's called being "upside down" in your loan and happens until you've paid on a car for about 12 to 18 months in most cases.

You said that you had a job on the side making $30K. Why didn't you get second job to support your family? Do you think that you are above it? How does your wife's income factor into this? Where were you emergency fund and backup plans? How can you possibly work in aviation without one?

That job on the side was food service working double shifts as a sous chef doing 14-16 hour days; it was the best I could find, no time for 2nd job. Wife's income, as I already stated, was just enough to cover her own car payment, insurance, and child care plus $200 a month for food and gas - no college degree. I had just upgraded from F/O to Capt and had 6 months of emergency funds saved up, 4 months were used going through training at Pinnacle with no pay during training (3 months of training then another month working before we saw a paycheck), the other 2 were used when I was furloughed from Pinnacle.

It's called living within your means and planning on the unexpected. The loss of a job should not spin you off into Ch 13. Instead of taking responsibility for yourself, getting a second job, selling the truck, etc, you decided to take the easy way out and stick me, and the rest of the population, with YOUR debt and piss poor decisions.

YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS TELLING ME THAT. I believe I made VERY sound decisions all the way through. I COULD have filed Chapter 7 and owed NOT A SINGLE, SOLITARY DIME and started over again MUCH more quickly. Instead I filed a 13 which DOES pay back the debts, just at a much slower rate. In case you haven't heard, the only dischargable debt in a 13 is unsecured (credit cards, etc), which I didn't have any of. Educate yourself and we'll talk more.

As far as being on the receiving end of this equation, I am currently furloughed from Indy. As a result of planning, emergency funds, etc, Ch 13 isn't even an option for me. I kept my skills up in another line of work and start next week at 2X my regional income. It burns me when guys are living paycheck to paycheck, lose their jobs and start screaming, "Poor me, I can't pay my bills. Let me have my neighbors cover my debt."

You know what's most amusing about this? I received about 4 PM's from people furloughed from Indy thanking me for the information and warning me that the self-righteous pr*cks would be out in force soon enough. Boy, were they right.

Did I have a contingency fund? Yup. Did I have another skill set to use? Yup. Was it enough to replace an $80,000 a year job? Nope. Glad you have that skill set, not everyone can be quite as "fortunate" as you, even with good planning, so point that self-righteous finger somewhere else buddy.

 

[neflier]

Lear,

My main point is that if you have positioned yourself financially where the loss of a job results in filing bankruptcy, then you are doing something very, very wrong. Too many people overextend themselves and then look at bankruptcy as a way out. We ALL then have to collectively pick up the tab.



As far as being upside down on your truck payment, how about putting a large enough down payment to preclude that possibility? That's how I purchase vehicles. Again, money management 101.

I hope everything works out for you as you get your life back together.

 

[Rekks Inbound]

DetoXJ,
Although I've never seen BK, I have several freinds who have. They were ALL responsible individuals, and lived within their means. I don't know where you live, but the example that started this thread is right on; and $200K for a house is CHEAP! Unless you live in a tar paper shack in a swamp somewhere. If you want something decent for your family, that about the minimum you are going to spend, so don't rip on someone for their 'irresponsible spending'. Most BK's are caused by medical debt; see what you cap is on your insurance, then call a couple of hospitals, you'll find that you will probably exceed your cap within 3 weeks, not an unusual amount of time for severe illness.

Speaking of debt and bankputcy, if this law applies to the Citizens of the USA, then why does it NOT apply to the person who signs off on the spending every year?! $450B and climbing! Feel sorry for your kids, if and when you have any, they and their kids will be paying this off for decades.

What a clusterF#$K!

Rekks

 

[Lear70]

My main point is that if you have positioned yourself financially where the loss of a job results in filing bankruptcy, then you are doing something very, very wrong.

It wasn't the loss of A job, it was the loss of TWO within the same year that did it.

Too many people overextend themselves and then look at bankruptcy as a way out. We ALL then have to collectively pick up the tab.

Explain to me how me filing Chapter 13 forces YOU to have to "pick up the tab", when all my debts WERE paid, just in a slower fashion? It DOESN'T raise interest rates; if that were true (I filed in 2001), interest rates would have gone UP, and we all know we have the lowest interest rates since the 1930's. You're barking up the wrong tree...

I would hazard a guess to say that you're in a less than 1% demographic of lending. 99% of the rest of us don't have the luxury of your situation (excess income to save a full YEAR of contingency funds, six-figure 401k, six-figure secondary income, perfect credit history and spending patterns). And all that as a Regional Airline pilot? Something stinks, maybe I should break out my hip waders...

 

[Peleton]

Listen....nothing changes the facts that half, 50 percent, of ALL personal bankruptcies are caused by medical bills. Most of those people had insurance that thought would cover the expenses. They did not pile up medical expenses getting nose jobs or face lifts..they had had bad luck sneek up on them and bite them in the butt. The were people involved in a car accident caused by an uninsured driver who they could not sue as they had no assets because the were an illegal fresh from the border driving a borrowed car. These were people whose kids had unexpected medial problems that they had no control of. These were people who could never have imagined that they would be ever be in this position.

For those people who believe that bankruptcies are caused by mismangement of funds and the stupidity of the personal involved, you are sorely under the influence of a corporate ideologly that has been proven untrue. This is just another way of seperating classes in society, Waren Buffet said it right when he said we are in the middle of class warfare in America and my side is winning.

Good luck to all, and to all the ones believing they are above this because they are smart enough to plan for this I wish you the most luck because the Karma bug will catch up with you sooner or later.

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

Anyone think credit card companies lobbying republicans $$$$$ had anything to do with this?? This is unfortunately how the system works. Only known one person to file bankruptcy and job loss was the reason. As mentioned before-hand, easily over half of all bankruptcies are due to health care costs. Some people abuse the system but everyone else will pay for the transgressions of those few.

Mr. I.

 

[FN FAL]

[/color]
Yup... it sucked for a lot of us. I was one of the lucky ones that was able to stay in aviation, a lot of others weren't as fortunate.


Have you ever purchased a new car? What happens after you drive it off the lot? That's riiiight, it depreciates several thousand dollars. If you tried to sell it six months later, you'd find that you couldn't get enough money to pay it off, it's called being "upside down" in your loan and happens until you've paid on a car for about 12 to 18 months in most cases.


That job on the side was food service working double shifts as a sous chef doing 14-16 hour days; it was the best I could find, no time for 2nd job. Wife's income, as I already stated, was just enough to cover her own car payment, insurance, and child care plus $200 a month for food and gas - no college degree. I had just upgraded from F/O to Capt and had 6 months of emergency funds saved up, 4 months were used going through training at Pinnacle with no pay during training (3 months of training then another month working before we saw a paycheck), the other 2 were used when I was furloughed from Pinnacle.


YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS TELLING ME THAT. I believe I made VERY sound decisions all the way through. I COULD have filed Chapter 7 and owed NOT A SINGLE, SOLITARY DIME and started over again MUCH more quickly. Instead I filed a 13 which DOES pay back the debts, just at a much slower rate. In case you haven't heard, the only dischargable debt in a 13 is unsecured (credit cards, etc), which I didn't have any of. Educate yourself and we'll talk more.


You know what's most amusing about this? I received about 4 PM's from people furloughed from Indy thanking me for the information and warning me that the self-righteous pr*cks would be out in force soon enough. Boy, were they right.

Did I have a contingency fund? Yup. Did I have another skill set to use? Yup. Was it enough to replace an $80,000 a year job? Nope. Glad you have that skill set, not everyone can be quite as "fortunate" as you, even with good planning, so point that self-righteous finger somewhere else buddy.

Damm...I hate hearing stories like yours. That is one of my biggest fears and it can happen at any of the airlines. Thanks for sharing your experience.

 

[Sphincter Boy]

Another option, if you don't want to do bankruptcy or miss the dead line. Consumer Credit Counseling Service at www.cccs.net.

I highly recommend not doing this. Companies like Ameri Debt and Consurmer Credit Counseling Service can help you get better interest rates and lower payments, but at a price. When you use one of these companies and then try to get a Conventional, FHA, or VA loan, you will be treated the same as if you had filed Chapter 13 Bankruptcy. Mortgage underwriting guidelines for traditional mortgages will consider your credit trashed, so don't do it. Real debt management help is found only in changing your behavior.

 

[HowlinMadMurdoc]

Two years from a Ch 7 discharge date, a person will qualify for an FHA-backed loan provided they are a first-time home buyer. Granted, the interest rate will be higher but it's possible. Generally speaking, if a person can raise their FICO score above 700, their interest rates will be lower and the chances of avoiding subprime lenders greatly increases.

Filing bankruptcy is a highly personal and difficult decision. It's done for many reasons, ethical or not. I'm not going to judge a person who's reached a point where there are no alternatives. IF they file and the debt is discharged, or repaid through Ch 13 proceedings, what matters is HOW they manage their finances after being given a second chance. Given the emotional rollercoaster experienced when deciding on and completing a bankruptcy, I'd venture to say that most people go through this process only once in their lifetime.

And, yes, I've known several people who filed bankruptcy and their lives weren't "ruined". At the time, they made the best of a bad situation and are doing well today.

HMM

 

[DetoXJ]

Lear70, thats exactally why you don't purchase a brand new truck. You buy one that is 6 months old in brand new condotion and you save thousands. Just another poor financial decision.

 

[Cracker]

Not that it may matter...

A lawyer friend told me these are the top three reasons for CH13. (CH7 usually falls under different circumstances)

1. Medical
2. Divorce
3. Job Loss

Look it up...those are the facts.

Arguing is about as pointless as arguing religion or politics...you probably ain't gonna' change anyone's mind.

But, hopefully this thread may help people raise the right questions if CH13 is becoming an option for them.

 

[Lear70]

Whatever makes you feel better Deto...