If you're thinking about Bankruptcy...

[DetoXJ]

Hey Lear, you are the exception and not the norm. Bankruptcy is for people like you. I could question why you spent 200K + on a house and 30K + on a truck without having a year of emergency $$ saved up?? Those are big purchases when you have empty bank accounts. Had you planned better you could have avoided BK. I would suggest developing an emergency fund so you can afford to maintain bill payment in the event of a job loss, demotion ect. ect. Anyway, I know several people who filed for BK and they were simply just people living outside of their means and took the easy way out. Sadly, they are the majority of BK filings.

 

[DetoXJ]

....d

 

[fam62c]

What about corporations?

Where is the balance in this law? Corporations are allowed to file BK and get away with murder. Look at UAL and USAirways. Don't like union contracts, throw them out. Pensions obligations? Dump them on the Govt. and give guys 30 cents on the dollar. Airplane leases? throw them out. etc, etc etc. The shareholders that owned the company? F@$k them, you never have to pay them back a red cent. You come out clean with debts erased and good deals for everything that you crammed down the creditors throats by force. I guess the old saying is true: if you owe the bank $50,000 you have a problem, if you owe the bank 50 million the bank has a problem.

Now the little guy is screwed, he can't do what corporations can do. People will get stuck in bad circumstances and never be able to start over because they will spend their whole lives paying off debt. I don't advocate BK and it's true that some people get in trouble through irresponsible money management but what about the responsible people who just had a lot of bad luck? How would you like to look at life knowing that you will never accumulate anything because everything you will earn in the future gets handed over as soon as you make it? It will be interesting to see how many people end up committing suicide because of this law because they are backed into a corner and see no other option. This is just another law to make sure that corporations are protected at the expense of individuals.

 

[flighter]

DETOXJ, you are a moron! The U.S. has the lowest savings rate of any industrial country, Credit card companies send out some 29 billion mailings a year, credit is dangled before us and when we bite, we get pinched in the new BK law

 

[DetoXJ]

Flighter, your the moron for taking the bait these credit card companies are throwing at you. I have no debt, lots of savings, emergency fund, 401K maxed with 6 figures in it to borrow against, ect. ect. It's called living within your means. I highly recommend you try it!

 

[ShyFlyGuy]

Where is the balance in this law? Corporations are allowed to file BK and get away with murder. Look at UAL and USAirways.

Great frigging point, Fam. I can see both sides on this, and I doubt it would do any good to shout one way or the other, but if they're going to stick it to us, stick it to the Corporations too! Wouldn't that be the day that somethingg in politics were fair? Just dreaming.

Shy

 

[neflier]

That's one of the more assinine things I've read in a few weeks on here...

So let me ask you this: a 727 freighter Captain who has been working the U.S. Postal Service routes for a few years and considers his job fairly stable makes about $80k a year (4,600 a month after taxes) so he buys a $200,000 home - not exactly a mansion, just a 3 bedroom place to raise the kids far enough from the projects not to see crack whores on the corner. Year 2000 interest rates payment = $1,500 a month. Then he buys a $30,000 truck so he can get around - not a Porsche, just a Ford F150 truck: $400 a month. He still has student loans at about $200 a month, all total about $2,100 a month in debt - he's living on less than HALF of his income.

Then the contract is illegally single-sourced to FedEx - income GONE. Find a job at half the pay, about $2,300 a month. But he still has $2,100 a month in debt payments BEFORE he buys food for the wife and kids. Wife has a job that pays HER bills but not much more... Then September 11th happens and the guy gets furloughed and doesn't know when he gets to go back to work, so he finds a job on the side that only pays about $30k a year ($1,750 per month after taxes).

The above happened to me. NO CREDIT CARD DEBT, and I mean ZERO, ZILCH, so explain to me how irresponsible spending is a problem? Thank God for Chapter 13 BR that kept me from losing my house and my car and allowed me to drop the payments enough to survive, or should I just have let my family go without shelter, food, or clothing?

Guys like you always come out of the wood work on your high horse, but don't consider that not everyone fits into your neat little definition of "circumstance". Sometimes life deals you cards that you don't deserve; should you then get screwed even harder?

May you live to someday realize, FIRST HAND, what it's like to be on the receiving end of this equation.

Let me start by saying that I'm sorry for your experiences. It sounds like you were working for Express 1. I have many buddies who flew there.

Sooooo, you lost your job and had a shiny new $30K truck, costing $400/month? Why didn't you sell it immediately after losing your job and purchase something used and much more economical? You said that you had a job on the side making $30K. Why didn't you get second job to support your family? Do you think that you are above it? How does your wife's income factor into this? Where were you emergency fund and backup plans? How can you possibly work in aviation without one?

It's called living within your means and planning on the unexpected. The loss of a job should not spin you off into Ch 13. Instead of taking responsibility for yourself, getting a second job, selling the truck, etc, you decided to take the easy way out and stick me, and the rest of the population, with YOUR debt and piss poor decisions.

As far as being on the receiving end of this equation, I am currently furloughed from Indy. As a result of planning, emergency funds, etc, Ch 13 isn't even an option for me. I kept my skills up in another line of work and start next week at 2X my regional income. It burns me when guys are living paycheck to paycheck, lose their jobs and start screaming, "Poor me, I can't pay my bills. Let me have my neighbors cover my debt."

 

[flighter]

Neflier, how are your neighbors covering your debt if you go BK. Don't give me that crap about interest rate rising for everyone. Banks take it into account there will be loses and they have reserves to cover that. Consumers in the U.S. Have always lived beyond their means. Guess who drives the economy, the consumer that's who. How does that come about? with easy availability of credit that is. I wish consumers would truly live within their means, only one problem the freaking economy with come to a standstill. BTW, I have not ever declared BK. I use to be a manager at Citibank and saw first hand how easy credit was given out to kid's in college and I got the call on the day of rekoning when they went beyond their means with ne banks help.

 

[Lear70]

Let me start by saying that I'm sorry for your experiences. It sounds like you were working for Express 1. I have many buddies who flew there.

Yup... it sucked for a lot of us. I was one of the lucky ones that was able to stay in aviation, a lot of others weren't as fortunate.

Sooooo, you lost your job and had a shiny new $30K truck, costing $400/month? Why didn't you sell it immediately after losing your job and purchase something used and much more economical?

Have you ever purchased a new car? What happens after you drive it off the lot? That's riiiight, it depreciates several thousand dollars. If you tried to sell it six months later, you'd find that you couldn't get enough money to pay it off, it's called being "upside down" in your loan and happens until you've paid on a car for about 12 to 18 months in most cases.

You said that you had a job on the side making $30K. Why didn't you get second job to support your family? Do you think that you are above it? How does your wife's income factor into this? Where were you emergency fund and backup plans? How can you possibly work in aviation without one?

That job on the side was food service working double shifts as a sous chef doing 14-16 hour days; it was the best I could find, no time for 2nd job. Wife's income, as I already stated, was just enough to cover her own car payment, insurance, and child care plus $200 a month for food and gas - no college degree. I had just upgraded from F/O to Capt and had 6 months of emergency funds saved up, 4 months were used going through training at Pinnacle with no pay during training (3 months of training then another month working before we saw a paycheck), the other 2 were used when I was furloughed from Pinnacle.

It's called living within your means and planning on the unexpected. The loss of a job should not spin you off into Ch 13. Instead of taking responsibility for yourself, getting a second job, selling the truck, etc, you decided to take the easy way out and stick me, and the rest of the population, with YOUR debt and piss poor decisions.

YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS TELLING ME THAT. I believe I made VERY sound decisions all the way through. I COULD have filed Chapter 7 and owed NOT A SINGLE, SOLITARY DIME and started over again MUCH more quickly. Instead I filed a 13 which DOES pay back the debts, just at a much slower rate. In case you haven't heard, the only dischargable debt in a 13 is unsecured (credit cards, etc), which I didn't have any of. Educate yourself and we'll talk more.

As far as being on the receiving end of this equation, I am currently furloughed from Indy. As a result of planning, emergency funds, etc, Ch 13 isn't even an option for me. I kept my skills up in another line of work and start next week at 2X my regional income. It burns me when guys are living paycheck to paycheck, lose their jobs and start screaming, "Poor me, I can't pay my bills. Let me have my neighbors cover my debt."

You know what's most amusing about this? I received about 4 PM's from people furloughed from Indy thanking me for the information and warning me that the self-righteous pr*cks would be out in force soon enough. Boy, were they right.

Did I have a contingency fund? Yup. Did I have another skill set to use? Yup. Was it enough to replace an $80,000 a year job? Nope. Glad you have that skill set, not everyone can be quite as "fortunate" as you, even with good planning, so point that self-righteous finger somewhere else buddy.

 

[neflier]

Lear,

My main point is that if you have positioned yourself financially where the loss of a job results in filing bankruptcy, then you are doing something very, very wrong. Too many people overextend themselves and then look at bankruptcy as a way out. We ALL then have to collectively pick up the tab.



As far as being upside down on your truck payment, how about putting a large enough down payment to preclude that possibility? That's how I purchase vehicles. Again, money management 101.

I hope everything works out for you as you get your life back together.