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If you could do it over again, would you...

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H

Heavy Set

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2002
Posts
2,277
There seems to be a lot of very upset people on this board. Sorry to hear it. Seems like fractional flying has become less enticing and less attractive to a good many people (largely due to very low wages relative to expectations).

So, if you wanted to stay in a flying position (and jobs at the major airlines were not available) and you could do it over again, would you:

a. choose another fractional company (if so, list the company you would prefer to work for)

b. seek out a part 91 or 135 position in a desirable location

c. seek out (or stay at) a position with a regional airline

Does anyone on this site wish they had considered and taken a job at another fractional? Do people who had flown at the regionals wish they had stayed? Not trying to be flip with this post, but just curious given the negative tone on this board...
 
Stinkbug said:
What I wish I had done was get my current fractional job about five years ago. It's a decent job even now, but the guys who got on early have it better than I do. More vacation and more flexibility in where they live. Snooze you lose I guess.
Click to expand...
What he said.
 
Stinkbug said:
What I wish I had done was get my current fractional job about five years ago. It's a decent job even now, but the guys who got on early have it better than I do. More vacation and more flexibility in where they live. Snooze you lose I guess.
Click to expand...
So, you actually like your job but wish you had more seniority, etc. That is different from the tone I am hearing on this board. Perhaps we hear more from the seriously unhappy people. Clearly there are reasons to be unhappy (low pay, internal politics, long days, questionable maintenance issues, etc.) but there have to be some positives out there too. Any other responses?
 
Well, it's not really a matter of seniority, as we don't have a seniority system. But the guys who got on early had a little better perks. You're right, though, I do enjoy my job and feel lucky to be here in the present environment. I worked for a large regional before and although that experience was overall a positive one, I feel I'm better off in all aspects at my current job.
 
My husband still believes that his judgement of NJA's potential for success was correct, and 75% of the market share, makes it true. Additionally, he didn't have any reason to doubt the "promises" of an industry-leading contract and is bitter, as many others are, over the failure of the company AND the MEC to offer at LEAST the industry average. Much hinges now on the TA. The outcome can/will change people's feelings. Vote down the TA and get a good contract=made the right decision. TA passes (only by fraud some say)=wasted time/sold out.


The negative tone is well deserved by the ones that it is directed towards!

The company IS trying to cram this TA down everyone's throat!! 2 letters and 1 DVD sent overnight delivery to 1800 plus pilots in just a couple of weeks??!! I wrote "REFUSED" on the DVD package (following orders) and like a boomerang, it was sent right back. At least they stopped trying to tell us they're broke...it'd be funny if it weren't so pathetic...and such a WASTE of money!
 
Lord Wakefield said:
Netjetwife:

I'm just glad to have you in the fight!
Click to expand...
Thank you my Lord...:)....it's a hard job, but one that is clearly long overdue! It really baffles me that the yes-voting MINORITY can't understand that the longer you let the "bullying" go on, the worse it gets. All one has to do, is compare the TA to the current contract, to see that theory in practice. Likewise, taking a stand THIS time, will make it easier next time!
 
How do you know the yes voters are a minority?

If you watched the media in the last year and observed the issue of gay marriage, you'd think the whole population was gay too!

I think the noisy minority belongs to the "no" people.

We have no real power as a labor force, no real representation, no unity. We hire scabs and give them a voice on the union message board.

Go to www.fracpilot.com and download the scab list...it's 75 pages long!!

This place would never go on strike and it would be filled with replacements a day later, which would bolster Flight Safety International's earnings.

Sorry...just the facts ma'am, just the facts!
 
My opinion that the yes voters are in the minority is based on 3 things--my phone calls to the pilots/wives in my state, reports from other wives who have also made calls, the feedback from the pilots on the road, relayed to me by my husband and other pilots that I have spoken to or read their posts.

No unity you say? Tell that to the 116 FOs that will soon receive bypass pay due to the UNIFIED action of the pilotforce!

No real representation? If by that you mean the CURRENT MEC, then I couldn't agree more! However, StrongUnion is doing a fine job and the votes haven't even been counted. That group shows great leadership ability and true concern for the pilots and their families. They have done much behind the scenes organizing already so that they will be fully prepared to REPRESENT and lead the group ASAP.

So much doom and gloom! Are you going as the Grim Reaper for Halloween, Hawkered....:)
 
Among the comments of Netwife-- "Additionally, he didn't have any reason to doubt the "promises" of an industry-leading contract and is bitter, as many others are, over the failure of the company AND the MEC to offer at LEAST the industry average."

As Netjets makes up over 75% of the industry, are not they the industry average. Basically they invented and dominate the industry. The question is what industry do you think they are in. They are clearly not an airline, they are clearly not a corporate aviation department, they border on an on demand 135 but let's face it, they had to make a new rule book just to deal with the industry Netjets created. That leaves Flexjet and Flight Options as the rest of the industry depending on where you put Citation Shares and maybe the Piaggio fractional program.

Do those operations have a better deal than does Netjets?

In another post, a group was proud that they had managed to manuver the system to get around the intent and get a bunch of pilots a raise. Good for them they got a raise. On the other hand, if management had gone around like that, everyone would be singing bloody murder.
 
Yeah, she's really got no idea.
 
Here's one that works

The median expected salary for a typical Captain/Pilot in Command (Small Jet) in Denver, CO, is $95,130. This basic market pricing report was prepared using our Certified Compensation Professionals' analysis of survey data collected from thousands of HR departments at employers of all sizes, industries and geographies.

Captain/Pilot in Command (Small Jet) 25th%ile Median 75th%ile
Denver, CO $82,267 $95,130 $113,311
 
You're dreaming and your data is WAY outdated.

Those figures are more in line with pilot pay in the mid-late 90's, NOT 2004. And even then those numbers are a far stretch for a small jet (Lear, 400A, Ctitation) captain in Denver or anywhere else in the country (maybe the NE).

I will agree that EJ pilots have been getting the KY treatment for way to long but the union has no backbone. As you say, they have 75% of the market share which means they have the industry by the balls but are too weak to see it. There is no way the TA should even come close to passing but I've seen stranger things happen.

Good luck.
 
To Netjey wife.

As a pilot I feel for all the frac-pilots out there. But especially your husband.
All the late nights, being totally exhausted, crummy food, feeling taken advantage of, then hearing all the whinning ahhhh!
Then after a week of that tourment he has to go to work and fly close to 14hrs. a day. Poor guy.
Oh ya, instead of Hawkered dressing as the grim reaper he could be even scarier dressing up as you.
Please give them a break!!!
 
Grim Reaper...that's not what I had in mind. I was thinking of Bill Clinton, and my wife wants to be Monica!
 
Internet research

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]About the Salary.com methodology[/font]

http://salary.hotjobs.com/graphics/dot.gif[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Salary.com methodology is a state-of-the-art process for benchmarking and analyzing jobs that builds on professional industry standards.[/font]http://salary.hotjobs.com/graphics/dot.gif[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Salary.com purchases the most current compensation survey reports from well-recognized, reputable compensation consulting firms.[/font]http://salary.hotjobs.com/graphics/dot.gif[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Salary.com's compensation consultants match our job descriptions to the most applicable jobs (if any) from each available data source.[/font]http://salary.hotjobs.com/graphics/dot.gif[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The compensation consultants create a composite view for each job using a proprietary mathematical model built by Salary.com. The model takes into account the statistical reliability of each data point, the robustness of the data within each data point, the effective date of the data reported, and the industry, geography, or company size biases within each survey.[/font]http://salary.hotjobs.com/graphics/dot.gif[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For a reality check, Salary.com's compensation consultants validate the data points by comparing them with other market indicators such as government data (e.g., the Bureau of Labor Statistics, which has excellent data that however is older than commercially published survey data).[/font]http://salary.hotjobs.com/graphics/dot.gif[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Salary.com consultants' composite view is then a "best-of-the-best" analysis of the compensation market for each job for which the data is sufficient to report.[/font]http://salary.hotjobs.com/graphics/dot.gif[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The team UPDATES THE DATA BASE EVERY MONTH to incorporate the MOST CURRENT REPORTS AVAILABLE and to reflect the general movement of salaries.[/font]


[font=arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Captain/Pilot in Command (Small Jet) [/font][font=arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]25th%ile [/font][font=arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Median [/font][font=arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]75th%ile [/font]http://salary.hotjobs.com/salarywizard/graphics/indicator_original.gifDenver, CO $82,267 $95,130 $113,311 http://salary.hotjobs.com/salarywizard/graphics/indicator_compare.gifthe United States $78,350 $90,600 $107,91

Captain/Pilot in Command (Small Jet):http://salary.hotjobs.com/salarywizard/graphics/clear.gifEnsures that trip of assigned flight (aircraft smaller than 12,500 pounds at takeoff) is conducted in the safest manner possible. Determines flight routes, speed, and take off and landing times to fulfill scheduling requirements. Must stay current with federal and local flight regulations. Possesses current airline transport certificate with necessary type ratings. Requires a minimum of 5,000 hours of flight experience.
 
Their formula is based on 260 working days a year. When you divide the pay for a capt. vs capt. 5 years of senority on a day basis it looks pretty close to me? So what am I missing?
 
My take

To answer your questions in order...

a. No. My fractional is fine.

b. 135-Heck no!!! A sweet 91 gig would be the ticket. Major 121 cargo would do, as well.

c. Leave to go to a regional? Um, no.

This job has been good to me. I probably do not want to get the gold watch from here, but it is a good job to have while you are looking for the next one.
 
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The figures at salary.com, as they apply to average pilot salaries, are a joke, and every pilot out there knows it.

For example, I put in my zip code, and it spewed out 97K a year for Citationjet captain. Sorry folks, but I know every Citationjet captain in my zip code, and they don't make 97K a year. More like 60 to 70k.

It also states a regional airline turboprop captain in my zip code makes 87K a year. Tell that to the two American Eagle captains in this neighborhood that make in the 50 to 60k range a year.

The source that most corporate and charter pilots rely on is the NBAA salary survey. Netjetwife, you'll have more credibility if you use accurate sources. Better yet, have your husband defend his own positions.
 
netjetwife said:
My husband still believes that his judgement of NJA's potential for success was correct, and 75% of the market share, makes it true. Additionally, he didn't have any reason to doubt the "promises" of an industry-leading contract and is bitter, as many others are, over the failure of the company AND the MEC to offer at LEAST the industry average. QUOTE]

I don't think you, or he, understand that Fractionals are an industry unto themselves with just a handful of players, or that NetJets is the 1,000 gorilla driving the average for the last 10 years.

Basically, you all want a raise...understandable and I hope you get it. But please dispense with this "industry average" persecution complex.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
netjetwife said:
The median expected salary for a typical Captain/Pilot in Command (Small Jet) in Denver, CO, is $95,130. This basic market pricing report was prepared using our Certified Compensation Professionals' analysis of survey data collected from thousands of HR departments at employers of all sizes, industries and geographies.

Captain/Pilot in Command (Small Jet) 25th%ile Median 75th%ile
Denver, CO $82,267 $95,130 $113,311
Click to expand...
Well if this method is using info from "HR depts of thousands of employers of all sizes and industries" to find expected salary "for a typical Captain/PIC (small jet) in Denver", then it's obvious it's factoring in corporate pilot salaries, an entirely different industry from what your husband works in.

Additionally, your info-method is weighted for "geographies", so the median salary therein reflects cost of living pressure a company has to meet in order to hire and retain employees in that area. This is irrelevant to the fracs and especially NetJets with it's gateway system. You chose to live in Denver...you didn't have to move there like a Denver-based corporate pilot and his/her family would.

This mis-application renders your argument bogus, and somewhat schitzophrenic, since you don't recognize the great irony of citing this "median expected salary"; you are comparing yourself to non-union wages. Those wages/higher salaries you cite were arrived at over time in various ways, but none of those included your SOLE avenue (again, another choice you/others made); collective bargaining, which is an entrenched, institutionalized, and adversarial process.

And because it is, it attracts it's own set of self-aggrandizing power-seekers and Messiah Complex-ers along with those who genuinly are trying to raise the tide. It's the former that are usually sounding off with pie-in-the-sky rhetoric of the type your husband unfortunately got sucked in by. It's good if you're getting rid of your MEC, but frankly, I wouldn't stop there.

If you get a new frac contract that exceeds corporate pilot industry averages, more power to you because it would be a first. You'd be getting the best of both worlds then...the good pay, plus a schedule with lots of hard time off while enjoying the ability to pick and choose where you want to live. Good luck
 
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Netjet Wife

Unfortunately, you seem to have been sucked in to all this well before you guys left the AF. Air Inc. has been nothing but an advertising media for flight training schools since the beginning.

"Airline Pilot Shortage Looming"

"Do YOU have what it takes?"

"Fly now..pay later, you'll make itall back in your first year at a major!"

The propaganda machine has made people like Kit Darby rich, not from flying for United Airlines, but preying on the hopes and dreams of aspiring young men and women AND the former military, who don't seem to know how the civi' side of things work.

The salaries you speak of are a pure flight of fantasy.

If those were available in the Denver area right now, every pilot from United, USAir, Delta and everywhere else that hasn't had a recall, would be beating their doors down. Your husband, as a bird colonel, would never settle for being an F/O here for these wages if these alternatives were so easily obtainable.

You are actually starting to believe in you own propaganda.
 
Under the TA, how would the NetJets salaries compare to those at FlexJets, Citation Shares and Flight Options?
 
I couldn't access the NBAA salary figures ( I tried that first) could one of you gentlemen please post them for us?

Skygirl, I don't know what the others pay, but I can give you the first offer/pay from the TA. For the FOs: yr1=$33,500 yr5=$38,540 this is for the 7&7. Reserve pays 5-6K more, but only the top 10% in seniority can hold it. The payscale stops at yr 5, you're stuck if there's a wait to upgrade.

Captain pay: a PBW system w/lowest frozen at 81K for yr10--yr1=$41,500. The next class tops out at 92K yr14. Clearly, the company placed no value on loyalty, and the MEC showed no vision or regard for the pilots. Many would have taken a PAYCUT!

Pay is NOT THE ONLY PROBLEM! The entire TA is flawed--doomed from the start!

A rising tide lifts all boats.
 
Valid

While NBAA is a good general guilde, you can see considerable differences between geographical areas.

As example, we recently had a crew and aircraft move from San Francisco to Miami. We recently hired a crew for a customer for his aircraft. The captain made about $85 and the copilot $60. The San Francisco crew is extremely pleased as they make a considerable amount over what they would have ever received in this market.

As I pointed out, none of these people has any hard days off, fly on most holidays, do all the stocking and flight planning, plus the boss has them on EJM certificate in one case and another for the other challenger. They both fly about 450 hours a year.

A charter company that I work with has a number of Lears and no one makes anywhere near the kind of money you are talking about and the F/O contract pilots go pretty much for what a flight attendant gets at $250-300 per day.

When EJA was founded and talking with me about a position, they heavily favored retired military who had some income from that and wanted the days off and to keep flying. Obviously it changed as Santuli came along and the thing grew.

My last point is that the I asked above, what industry do you think you are in. Airnet, also in Columbus, flies checks and now has branched into flying Lear 60'a in passenger charter. Well those check guys are only remotely in the same business as Netjets. There are different economics at work there and that market segment is its own niche. If the costs get too high there and banks do not need the checks delivered as much, well, that segment may go away.

There is danger in trying to compare things that are not equal or comparable. Hard days off, remote bases, charter vendors, crew services by HQ personnel, all of these are part of making the crew cost for Netjets expensive when in context with who they compete.

We hire pilots all the time and talk with others, and, well there are no $95,000 Citation captains around here.
 
If I could....

To Heavy Set,

For what it's worth, if I could do it over again I'd go straight to the fractionals. Regional airline flying sucks and the pay is even worse. Combine that with all the instability and you can really get stuck. I feel for all of those shelling out big bucks for flight training when there aren't any livable wage airline jobs out there. Used to be you'd slug it out and pay your dues, knowing at some point you would be able to recoup your losses. I'm not so sure that point doesn't exist anymore.
 
Thank you, guys!

BoilerUp, that's a ton of info...:) I'll post that link on the wives board. NBAA Captain's pay--$87, 707 and FO pay--$54,712. Much better than the CURRENT wages at NJA. That was the point that I was trying to make, all along.

Ahh, the wonders of teamwork....
 
Again

Someone is seeing what they want to.

I'd swear I just read Light Jet captain $68,946 Med $78,266 with F/O in high 40's for average. Check page 202

NBAA is for corporate flight departments where the crew does much more than the Netjets crew is required to do, is weighted towards the Northeast by the fact that more of theNBAA large departments are there.
 

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