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If you could do it over again, would you...
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CatYaaak
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Well if this method is using info from "HR depts of thousands of employers of all sizes and industries" to find expected salary "for a typical Captain/PIC (small jet) in Denver", then it's obvious it's factoring in corporate pilot salaries, an entirely different industry from what your husband works in.netjetwife said:
Additionally, your info-method is weighted for "geographies", so the median salary therein reflects cost of living pressure a company has to meet in order to hire and retain employees in that area. This is irrelevant to the fracs and especially NetJets with it's gateway system. You chose to live in Denver...you didn't have to move there like a Denver-based corporate pilot and his/her family would.
This mis-application renders your argument bogus, and somewhat schitzophrenic, since you don't recognize the great irony of citing this "median expected salary"; you are comparing yourself to non-union wages. Those wages/higher salaries you cite were arrived at over time in various ways, but none of those included your SOLE avenue (again, another choice you/others made); collective bargaining, which is an entrenched, institutionalized, and adversarial process.
And because it is, it attracts it's own set of self-aggrandizing power-seekers and Messiah Complex-ers along with those who genuinly are trying to raise the tide. It's the former that are usually sounding off with pie-in-the-sky rhetoric of the type your husband unfortunately got sucked in by. It's good if you're getting rid of your MEC, but frankly, I wouldn't stop there.
If you get a new frac contract that exceeds corporate pilot industry averages, more power to you because it would be a first. You'd be getting the best of both worlds then...the good pay, plus a schedule with lots of hard time off while enjoying the ability to pick and choose where you want to live. Good luck
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Netjet Wife
Unfortunately, you seem to have been sucked in to all this well before you guys left the AF. Air Inc. has been nothing but an advertising media for flight training schools since the beginning.
"Airline Pilot Shortage Looming"
"Do YOU have what it takes?"
"Fly now..pay later, you'll make itall back in your first year at a major!"
The propaganda machine has made people like Kit Darby rich, not from flying for United Airlines, but preying on the hopes and dreams of aspiring young men and women AND the former military, who don't seem to know how the civi' side of things work.
The salaries you speak of are a pure flight of fantasy.
If those were available in the Denver area right now, every pilot from United, USAir, Delta and everywhere else that hasn't had a recall, would be beating their doors down. Your husband, as a bird colonel, would never settle for being an F/O here for these wages if these alternatives were so easily obtainable.
You are actually starting to believe in you own propaganda.
Unfortunately, you seem to have been sucked in to all this well before you guys left the AF. Air Inc. has been nothing but an advertising media for flight training schools since the beginning.
"Airline Pilot Shortage Looming"
"Do YOU have what it takes?"
"Fly now..pay later, you'll make itall back in your first year at a major!"
The propaganda machine has made people like Kit Darby rich, not from flying for United Airlines, but preying on the hopes and dreams of aspiring young men and women AND the former military, who don't seem to know how the civi' side of things work.
The salaries you speak of are a pure flight of fantasy.
If those were available in the Denver area right now, every pilot from United, USAir, Delta and everywhere else that hasn't had a recall, would be beating their doors down. Your husband, as a bird colonel, would never settle for being an F/O here for these wages if these alternatives were so easily obtainable.
You are actually starting to believe in you own propaganda.
netjetwife
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I couldn't access the NBAA salary figures ( I tried that first) could one of you gentlemen please post them for us?
Skygirl, I don't know what the others pay, but I can give you the first offer/pay from the TA. For the FOs: yr1=$33,500 yr5=$38,540 this is for the 7&7. Reserve pays 5-6K more, but only the top 10% in seniority can hold it. The payscale stops at yr 5, you're stuck if there's a wait to upgrade.
Captain pay: a PBW system w/lowest frozen at 81K for yr10--yr1=$41,500. The next class tops out at 92K yr14. Clearly, the company placed no value on loyalty, and the MEC showed no vision or regard for the pilots. Many would have taken a PAYCUT!
Pay is NOT THE ONLY PROBLEM! The entire TA is flawed--doomed from the start!
A rising tide lifts all boats.
Skygirl, I don't know what the others pay, but I can give you the first offer/pay from the TA. For the FOs: yr1=$33,500 yr5=$38,540 this is for the 7&7. Reserve pays 5-6K more, but only the top 10% in seniority can hold it. The payscale stops at yr 5, you're stuck if there's a wait to upgrade.
Captain pay: a PBW system w/lowest frozen at 81K for yr10--yr1=$41,500. The next class tops out at 92K yr14. Clearly, the company placed no value on loyalty, and the MEC showed no vision or regard for the pilots. Many would have taken a PAYCUT!
Pay is NOT THE ONLY PROBLEM! The entire TA is flawed--doomed from the start!
A rising tide lifts all boats.
Publishers
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Valid
While NBAA is a good general guilde, you can see considerable differences between geographical areas.
As example, we recently had a crew and aircraft move from San Francisco to Miami. We recently hired a crew for a customer for his aircraft. The captain made about $85 and the copilot $60. The San Francisco crew is extremely pleased as they make a considerable amount over what they would have ever received in this market.
As I pointed out, none of these people has any hard days off, fly on most holidays, do all the stocking and flight planning, plus the boss has them on EJM certificate in one case and another for the other challenger. They both fly about 450 hours a year.
A charter company that I work with has a number of Lears and no one makes anywhere near the kind of money you are talking about and the F/O contract pilots go pretty much for what a flight attendant gets at $250-300 per day.
When EJA was founded and talking with me about a position, they heavily favored retired military who had some income from that and wanted the days off and to keep flying. Obviously it changed as Santuli came along and the thing grew.
My last point is that the I asked above, what industry do you think you are in. Airnet, also in Columbus, flies checks and now has branched into flying Lear 60'a in passenger charter. Well those check guys are only remotely in the same business as Netjets. There are different economics at work there and that market segment is its own niche. If the costs get too high there and banks do not need the checks delivered as much, well, that segment may go away.
There is danger in trying to compare things that are not equal or comparable. Hard days off, remote bases, charter vendors, crew services by HQ personnel, all of these are part of making the crew cost for Netjets expensive when in context with who they compete.
We hire pilots all the time and talk with others, and, well there are no $95,000 Citation captains around here.
While NBAA is a good general guilde, you can see considerable differences between geographical areas.
As example, we recently had a crew and aircraft move from San Francisco to Miami. We recently hired a crew for a customer for his aircraft. The captain made about $85 and the copilot $60. The San Francisco crew is extremely pleased as they make a considerable amount over what they would have ever received in this market.
As I pointed out, none of these people has any hard days off, fly on most holidays, do all the stocking and flight planning, plus the boss has them on EJM certificate in one case and another for the other challenger. They both fly about 450 hours a year.
A charter company that I work with has a number of Lears and no one makes anywhere near the kind of money you are talking about and the F/O contract pilots go pretty much for what a flight attendant gets at $250-300 per day.
When EJA was founded and talking with me about a position, they heavily favored retired military who had some income from that and wanted the days off and to keep flying. Obviously it changed as Santuli came along and the thing grew.
My last point is that the I asked above, what industry do you think you are in. Airnet, also in Columbus, flies checks and now has branched into flying Lear 60'a in passenger charter. Well those check guys are only remotely in the same business as Netjets. There are different economics at work there and that market segment is its own niche. If the costs get too high there and banks do not need the checks delivered as much, well, that segment may go away.
There is danger in trying to compare things that are not equal or comparable. Hard days off, remote bases, charter vendors, crew services by HQ personnel, all of these are part of making the crew cost for Netjets expensive when in context with who they compete.
We hire pilots all the time and talk with others, and, well there are no $95,000 Citation captains around here.
If I could....
To Heavy Set,
For what it's worth, if I could do it over again I'd go straight to the fractionals. Regional airline flying sucks and the pay is even worse. Combine that with all the instability and you can really get stuck. I feel for all of those shelling out big bucks for flight training when there aren't any livable wage airline jobs out there. Used to be you'd slug it out and pay your dues, knowing at some point you would be able to recoup your losses. I'm not so sure that point doesn't exist anymore.
To Heavy Set,
For what it's worth, if I could do it over again I'd go straight to the fractionals. Regional airline flying sucks and the pay is even worse. Combine that with all the instability and you can really get stuck. I feel for all of those shelling out big bucks for flight training when there aren't any livable wage airline jobs out there. Used to be you'd slug it out and pay your dues, knowing at some point you would be able to recoup your losses. I'm not so sure that point doesn't exist anymore.
BoilerUP
Citation style...
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A linky for the 2003 NBAA Compensation Survey. Ahh, the wonders of the internet...netjetwife said:
http://www.rtaa.org/forms/survey.pdf
hope this helps
netjetwife
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I'll post that link on the wives board. NBAA Captain's pay--$87, 707 and FO pay--$54,712. Much better than the CURRENT wages at NJA. That was the point that I was trying to make, all along.Publishers
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Again
Someone is seeing what they want to.
I'd swear I just read Light Jet captain $68,946 Med $78,266 with F/O in high 40's for average. Check page 202
NBAA is for corporate flight departments where the crew does much more than the Netjets crew is required to do, is weighted towards the Northeast by the fact that more of theNBAA large departments are there.
Someone is seeing what they want to.
I'd swear I just read Light Jet captain $68,946 Med $78,266 with F/O in high 40's for average. Check page 202
NBAA is for corporate flight departments where the crew does much more than the Netjets crew is required to do, is weighted towards the Northeast by the fact that more of theNBAA large departments are there.
Take a look at the average duty time and RON's ..... It is a very complex picture to just look at Salary and compare apples to oranges!!!
Ave Flight hours per year = 319-377
Netjets pilots are flying 500-700 per year depending on fleet
Ave RON's = 58-60
Netjets pilots spend 144(7&7), 180+(17day)
Ave Duty Hours = 1402-1607
NetJets pilots (1500-2300)
Ave Weekend days worked = 21-27
Netjets pilots work a min of 24 weekend
Ok, no 24/7 pager or additional duties for Netjets but most Corporate depts get to wear business casual (not a comparison I know). Lots of other perks with each job that may or may not even up.
Just adding some points here.
Ave Flight hours per year = 319-377
Netjets pilots are flying 500-700 per year depending on fleet
Ave RON's = 58-60
Netjets pilots spend 144(7&7), 180+(17day)
Ave Duty Hours = 1402-1607
NetJets pilots (1500-2300)
Ave Weekend days worked = 21-27
Netjets pilots work a min of 24 weekend
Ok, no 24/7 pager or additional duties for Netjets but most Corporate depts get to wear business casual (not a comparison I know). Lots of other perks with each job that may or may not even up.
Just adding some points here.
Publishers
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points
Torch,
Those are much more relevant points than have been being made here. In the real life examples on the two Challengers I mentioned their hours are in the 450 area as they fly charter and operations for the owner both. The charter is for EJM mostly.
Obviously the more long range, the higher hours that go with them. In addition, on the two examples, they fly mostly weekends to the owners a) other homes like St Thomas, b) to the owners area football team games mostly held on weekends.
One other Challenger is managed by a young man who takes care of the Challenger and a Sabreliner. He is the only employed pilot and is expected to find contract pilots for F/o as required. Most trips are weekends-- Thursday to Sunday. He airlines back but misses most of these because the ower does not keep a very tight schedule. He got a Challenger rating out of the deal and a mid eighties salary. His duty hours are whatever is necessary to fly plus see the aircraft get maintained.
Would not even know how to get these guys duty times.
Everyone assumes that I think Netjets pilots are over paid or paid adequately. Not particularly. I do think they need to understand where they fit into the system ==their context of the business they are in.
For the most part, they think like airline types but want corporate Fortune 500 wages but with security that they do not have.
Torch,
Those are much more relevant points than have been being made here. In the real life examples on the two Challengers I mentioned their hours are in the 450 area as they fly charter and operations for the owner both. The charter is for EJM mostly.
Obviously the more long range, the higher hours that go with them. In addition, on the two examples, they fly mostly weekends to the owners a) other homes like St Thomas, b) to the owners area football team games mostly held on weekends.
One other Challenger is managed by a young man who takes care of the Challenger and a Sabreliner. He is the only employed pilot and is expected to find contract pilots for F/o as required. Most trips are weekends-- Thursday to Sunday. He airlines back but misses most of these because the ower does not keep a very tight schedule. He got a Challenger rating out of the deal and a mid eighties salary. His duty hours are whatever is necessary to fly plus see the aircraft get maintained.
Would not even know how to get these guys duty times.
Everyone assumes that I think Netjets pilots are over paid or paid adequately. Not particularly. I do think they need to understand where they fit into the system ==their context of the business they are in.
For the most part, they think like airline types but want corporate Fortune 500 wages but with security that they do not have.
Frac Daddy
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- 384
Publishers...
I generally agree with you but you might want to check some of the posts about the Netjets TA. Some of the complaints are that with this new TA, you may have to be available on your days off. Remote bases will be going away for new hires.
I agree with you that a slightly lower pay is the price for hard days off and remote bases. That is why I went to the fractionals. But this TA seems to take these things away without bringing up the pay to corporate standards.
Publishers,
I generally agree with you but you might want to check some of the posts about the Netjets TA. Some of the complaints are that with this new TA, you may have to be available on your days off. Remote bases will be going away for new hires.
I agree with you that a slightly lower pay is the price for hard days off and remote bases. That is why I went to the fractionals. But this TA seems to take these things away without bringing up the pay to corporate standards.
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fogrunner
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If you could do it over again, would you...
Back to the original question...
I spent 5yrs at FLOPS, as a BJ and CIII Capt. If I had to do it again. I would have stayed at Skywest. I think it is a case of what you like. Some people like Chevy's, others like Fords. I just prefer the airline culture.
Back to the original question...
I spent 5yrs at FLOPS, as a BJ and CIII Capt. If I had to do it again. I would have stayed at Skywest. I think it is a case of what you like. Some people like Chevy's, others like Fords. I just prefer the airline culture.
Publishers
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right
Other elements are there ability to sell more and more shares in an economy that struggles, a big enough fleet to keep deadheads down, reduce outside charter, etc etc.
Your pilot labor cost is a really small part of the equation taken in total context of the model.
Back when Paul Tibbetts and I talked about all this, the problem was that they were geared to pricing trips as if they were all one way. Unfortunately they were not competitive against others for any variation like round trips or trips from where the charter company was based. He had to keep his crew cost down because they would leave the plane and move the crew, a costly proposition.
That is really the question I have been looking to see answered. How are wer doing against the others in this business? From a business perspective, Netjets has a good many problems going for itself at all times. It is a big horse and has a big appetite for cash. The model works great as the animal is getting bigger but it has yet to be proved for the term. What do I mean? They made some estimates at the beginning that take a number of years to be proven or disproven such as the residual value of aircraft.Frac Daddy said:
Other elements are there ability to sell more and more shares in an economy that struggles, a big enough fleet to keep deadheads down, reduce outside charter, etc etc.
Your pilot labor cost is a really small part of the equation taken in total context of the model.
Back when Paul Tibbetts and I talked about all this, the problem was that they were geared to pricing trips as if they were all one way. Unfortunately they were not competitive against others for any variation like round trips or trips from where the charter company was based. He had to keep his crew cost down because they would leave the plane and move the crew, a costly proposition.
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