If you could do it over again, would you...

[Hawkered]

Grim Reaper...that's not what I had in mind. I was thinking of Bill Clinton, and my wife wants to be Monica!

 

[netjetwife]

Internet research

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]About the Salary.com methodology[/font]

http://salary.hotjobs.com/graphics/dot.gif[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Salary.com methodology is a state-of-the-art process for benchmarking and analyzing jobs that builds on professional industry standards.[/font]http://salary.hotjobs.com/graphics/dot.gif[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Salary.com purchases the most current compensation survey reports from well-recognized, reputable compensation consulting firms.[/font]http://salary.hotjobs.com/graphics/dot.gif[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Salary.com's compensation consultants match our job descriptions to the most applicable jobs (if any) from each available data source.[/font]http://salary.hotjobs.com/graphics/dot.gif[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The compensation consultants create a composite view for each job using a proprietary mathematical model built by Salary.com. The model takes into account the statistical reliability of each data point, the robustness of the data within each data point, the effective date of the data reported, and the industry, geography, or company size biases within each survey.[/font]http://salary.hotjobs.com/graphics/dot.gif[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For a reality check, Salary.com's compensation consultants validate the data points by comparing them with other market indicators such as government data (e.g., the Bureau of Labor Statistics, which has excellent data that however is older than commercially published survey data).[/font]http://salary.hotjobs.com/graphics/dot.gif[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Salary.com consultants' composite view is then a "best-of-the-best" analysis of the compensation market for each job for which the data is sufficient to report.[/font]http://salary.hotjobs.com/graphics/dot.gif[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The team UPDATES THE DATA BASE EVERY MONTH to incorporate the MOST CURRENT REPORTS AVAILABLE and to reflect the general movement of salaries.[/font]


[font=arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Captain/Pilot in Command (Small Jet) [/font][font=arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]25th%ile [/font][font=arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Median [/font][font=arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]75th%ile [/font]http://salary.hotjobs.com/salarywizard/graphics/indicator_original.gifDenver, CO $82,267 $95,130 $113,311 http://salary.hotjobs.com/salarywizard/graphics/indicator_compare.gifthe United States $78,350 $90,600 $107,91

Captain/Pilot in Command (Small Jet):http://salary.hotjobs.com/salarywizard/graphics/clear.gifEnsures that trip of assigned flight (aircraft smaller than 12,500 pounds at takeoff) is conducted in the safest manner possible. Determines flight routes, speed, and take off and landing times to fulfill scheduling requirements. Must stay current with federal and local flight regulations. Possesses current airline transport certificate with necessary type ratings. Requires a minimum of 5,000 hours of flight experience.

 

[dukeofdub]

Their formula is based on 260 working days a year. When you divide the pay for a capt. vs capt. 5 years of senority on a day basis it looks pretty close to me? So what am I missing?

 

[Frac Daddy]

My take

To answer your questions in order...

a. No. My fractional is fine.

b. 135-Heck no!!! A sweet 91 gig would be the ticket. Major 121 cargo would do, as well.

c. Leave to go to a regional? Um, no.

This job has been good to me. I probably do not want to get the gold watch from here, but it is a good job to have while you are looking for the next one.

 

[English]

The figures at salary.com, as they apply to average pilot salaries, are a joke, and every pilot out there knows it.

For example, I put in my zip code, and it spewed out 97K a year for Citationjet captain. Sorry folks, but I know every Citationjet captain in my zip code, and they don't make 97K a year. More like 60 to 70k.

It also states a regional airline turboprop captain in my zip code makes 87K a year. Tell that to the two American Eagle captains in this neighborhood that make in the 50 to 60k range a year.

The source that most corporate and charter pilots rely on is the NBAA salary survey. Netjetwife, you'll have more credibility if you use accurate sources. Better yet, have your husband defend his own positions.

 

[CatYaaak]

My husband still believes that his judgement of NJA's potential for success was correct, and 75% of the market share, makes it true. Additionally, he didn't have any reason to doubt the "promises" of an industry-leading contract and is bitter, as many others are, over the failure of the company AND the MEC to offer at LEAST the industry average. QUOTE]

I don't think you, or he, understand that Fractionals are an industry unto themselves with just a handful of players, or that NetJets is the 1,000 gorilla driving the average for the last 10 years.

Basically, you all want a raise...understandable and I hope you get it. But please dispense with this "industry average" persecution complex.

 

[CatYaaak]

The median expected salary for a typical Captain/Pilot in Command (Small Jet) in Denver, CO, is $95,130. This basic market pricing report was prepared using our Certified Compensation Professionals' analysis of survey data collected from thousands of HR departments at employers of all sizes, industries and geographies.

Captain/Pilot in Command (Small Jet) 25th%ile Median 75th%ile
Denver, CO $82,267 $95,130 $113,311

Well if this method is using info from "HR depts of thousands of employers of all sizes and industries" to find expected salary "for a typical Captain/PIC (small jet) in Denver", then it's obvious it's factoring in corporate pilot salaries, an entirely different industry from what your husband works in.

Additionally, your info-method is weighted for "geographies", so the median salary therein reflects cost of living pressure a company has to meet in order to hire and retain employees in that area. This is irrelevant to the fracs and especially NetJets with it's gateway system. You chose to live in Denver...you didn't have to move there like a Denver-based corporate pilot and his/her family would.

This mis-application renders your argument bogus, and somewhat schitzophrenic, since you don't recognize the great irony of citing this "median expected salary"; you are comparing yourself to non-union wages. Those wages/higher salaries you cite were arrived at over time in various ways, but none of those included your SOLE avenue (again, another choice you/others made); collective bargaining, which is an entrenched, institutionalized, and adversarial process.

And because it is, it attracts it's own set of self-aggrandizing power-seekers and Messiah Complex-ers along with those who genuinly are trying to raise the tide. It's the former that are usually sounding off with pie-in-the-sky rhetoric of the type your husband unfortunately got sucked in by. It's good if you're getting rid of your MEC, but frankly, I wouldn't stop there.

If you get a new frac contract that exceeds corporate pilot industry averages, more power to you because it would be a first. You'd be getting the best of both worlds then...the good pay, plus a schedule with lots of hard time off while enjoying the ability to pick and choose where you want to live. Good luck

 

[Hawkered]

Netjet Wife

Unfortunately, you seem to have been sucked in to all this well before you guys left the AF. Air Inc. has been nothing but an advertising media for flight training schools since the beginning.

"Airline Pilot Shortage Looming"

"Do YOU have what it takes?"

"Fly now..pay later, you'll make itall back in your first year at a major!"

The propaganda machine has made people like Kit Darby rich, not from flying for United Airlines, but preying on the hopes and dreams of aspiring young men and women AND the former military, who don't seem to know how the civi' side of things work.

The salaries you speak of are a pure flight of fantasy.

If those were available in the Denver area right now, every pilot from United, USAir, Delta and everywhere else that hasn't had a recall, would be beating their doors down. Your husband, as a bird colonel, would never settle for being an F/O here for these wages if these alternatives were so easily obtainable.

You are actually starting to believe in you own propaganda.

 

[SkyGirl]

Under the TA, how would the NetJets salaries compare to those at FlexJets, Citation Shares and Flight Options?

 

[netjetwife]

I couldn't access the NBAA salary figures ( I tried that first) could one of you gentlemen please post them for us?

Skygirl, I don't know what the others pay, but I can give you the first offer/pay from the TA. For the FOs: yr1=$33,500 yr5=$38,540 this is for the 7&7. Reserve pays 5-6K more, but only the top 10% in seniority can hold it. The payscale stops at yr 5, you're stuck if there's a wait to upgrade.

Captain pay: a PBW system w/lowest frozen at 81K for yr10--yr1=$41,500. The next class tops out at 92K yr14. Clearly, the company placed no value on loyalty, and the MEC showed no vision or regard for the pilots. Many would have taken a PAYCUT!

Pay is NOT THE ONLY PROBLEM! The entire TA is flawed--doomed from the start!

A rising tide lifts all boats.

 

[Publishers]

Valid

While NBAA is a good general guilde, you can see considerable differences between geographical areas.

As example, we recently had a crew and aircraft move from San Francisco to Miami. We recently hired a crew for a customer for his aircraft. The captain made about $85 and the copilot $60. The San Francisco crew is extremely pleased as they make a considerable amount over what they would have ever received in this market.

As I pointed out, none of these people has any hard days off, fly on most holidays, do all the stocking and flight planning, plus the boss has them on EJM certificate in one case and another for the other challenger. They both fly about 450 hours a year.

A charter company that I work with has a number of Lears and no one makes anywhere near the kind of money you are talking about and the F/O contract pilots go pretty much for what a flight attendant gets at $250-300 per day.

When EJA was founded and talking with me about a position, they heavily favored retired military who had some income from that and wanted the days off and to keep flying. Obviously it changed as Santuli came along and the thing grew.

My last point is that the I asked above, what industry do you think you are in. Airnet, also in Columbus, flies checks and now has branched into flying Lear 60'a in passenger charter. Well those check guys are only remotely in the same business as Netjets. There are different economics at work there and that market segment is its own niche. If the costs get too high there and banks do not need the checks delivered as much, well, that segment may go away.

There is danger in trying to compare things that are not equal or comparable. Hard days off, remote bases, charter vendors, crew services by HQ personnel, all of these are part of making the crew cost for Netjets expensive when in context with who they compete.

We hire pilots all the time and talk with others, and, well there are no $95,000 Citation captains around here.

 

[dhc8ap]

If I could....

To Heavy Set,

For what it's worth, if I could do it over again I'd go straight to the fractionals. Regional airline flying sucks and the pay is even worse. Combine that with all the instability and you can really get stuck. I feel for all of those shelling out big bucks for flight training when there aren't any livable wage airline jobs out there. Used to be you'd slug it out and pay your dues, knowing at some point you would be able to recoup your losses. I'm not so sure that point doesn't exist anymore.

 

[BoilerUP]

I couldn't access the NBAA salary figures ( I tried that first) could one of you gentlemen please post them for us?

A linky for the 2003 NBAA Compensation Survey. Ahh, the wonders of the internet...

http://www.rtaa.org/forms/survey.pdf

hope this helps

 

[netjetwife]

Thank you, guys!

BoilerUp, that's a ton of info... I'll post that link on the wives board. NBAA Captain's pay--$87, 707 and FO pay--$54,712. Much better than the CURRENT wages at NJA. That was the point that I was trying to make, all along.

Ahh, the wonders of teamwork....

 

[Publishers]

Again

Someone is seeing what they want to.

I'd swear I just read Light Jet captain $68,946 Med $78,266 with F/O in high 40's for average. Check page 202

NBAA is for corporate flight departments where the crew does much more than the Netjets crew is required to do, is weighted towards the Northeast by the fact that more of theNBAA large departments are there.