If/When Spirit Strikes

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The problem with fighting for much higher first year pay is that management fights it tooth and nail. They'd rather give the 2nd year guy an extra $5 than give the first year guy an extra $1. To them, it's just anathema to pay a guy a high rate when he's still on probation and might not even make it past his first year,

At a regional probably... at a major.... probably not. Most guys at national, cargo(FX/UPS) and legacy carriers make it thru probation.

plus they're spending $40k on his training and he produces no revenue for them in his first couple of months.

So he is funding the expense of the simulators and staff to train him..... at a national/major this is unacceptable. New pilots at these carriers already bring loads of experience to the table. This isn't 1930-1974.

So, you always come down to the question at the end of bargaining, do we hold tight and demand industry leading pay for first year FOs, delaying negotiations for months longer and possibly having to go on strike, or do we get the extra few dollars in the second year rate instead and get the deal done?

There is plenty of extras that the senior pilots have. They double dip with seniority itself, then have the best vacation, schedule, benefits, etc... there is plenty of discretionary play money to negotiate within the top 30% to fund a fair and reasonable first year pay.

Not exactly an easy decision.

Who represents the first year guys? No one. Right now Spirit, Airtran, CAL and UAL are in section 6. The guys that will be on first year pay aren't even hired yet. So how do they represent themselves? Obviously they cannot. Therefore someone else has to. And they should. The noblest of acts is to represent the non represented.

The other problem is ..... is if first year pay is not corrected the new pilots that do apply are not going to be the best and the brightest. Yet that is what Capts will need in order to do their job and earn the double dip of seniority.

The senior get richer scheme goes back to the days when Capt was God and co-pilots (still the term at UAL) were pukes lucky to be there. Specifically the ALPA contracts seems structured this way, were at one time co-pilots had no vote at ALPA then they only had 1/2 vote.


I am also willing to bet that first year pay corrected for inflation is at the the lowest for the 2000s compared to the last 80 years.

Get first year pay and benefits up: Cap the max days off at 16 and flatten the vacation days for all pilots and get rid of longevity awards sans pay. The future of the profession depends on it.

 

[waveflyer]

I completely agreewith Rez-
our tradition of first year pay is huge leverage against us as professionals- and I'm pretty sure that mgmt knows that- their excuses are just that- bc they can't tell you that it is way easier to extract concessions when industry standard 1st year pay is below the poverty level and would bankrupt most pilots

 

[PCL_128]

There is plenty of extras that the senior pilots have. They double dip with seniority itself, then have the best vacation, schedule, benefits, etc... there is plenty of discretionary play money to negotiate within the top 30% to fund a fair and reasonable first year pay.

I think this is an incredibly short sighted strategy. The average mainline pilot will spend over ten years of his career at the max longevity rate, but every pilot only spends one year at first year pay. Sacrificing pay at that top longevity to trade for industry-leading first year pay is just not smart strategy.

Now, this isn't to say that I believe first year pilots should struggle. The traditional $30/hr first year pay is ridiculous, and that needs to come up at the carriers that still have it. But I see nothing unreasonable about DAL's first year pay, and I don't think it would be prudent to expend bargaining capital on raising that rate any higher than COLA in a new TA.

 

[waveflyer]

PCL- i'd like you to respond to my theory that first year pay decreases our leverage- Industry standard is so low that mgmt knows that virtually none of us will leave to start over at another carrier, no matter how insane the concession. I get your point above, and it's a good one- but it is also short sighted to believe that any one of us won't be having to go through first year pay at another carrier at least one more time, if not several. Making this a thriving wage instead of poverty would be well worth the cost at the top end. There hasn't been much empirical evidence that ANY of us should expect 30 year careers at our carriers any more. It is a different negotiating environment since deregulation, and one that IMO ALPA has not adjusted to.

 

[Tristar]

PCL- i'd like you to respond to my theory that first year pay decreases our leverage- Industry standard is so low that mgmt knows that virtually none of us will leave to start over at another carrier, no matter how insane the concession. I get your point above, and it's a good one- but it is also short sighted to believe that any one of us won't be having to go through first year pay at another carrier at least one more time, if not several. Making this a thriving wage instead of poverty would be well worth the cost at the top end. There hasn't been much empirical evidence that ANY of us should expect 30 year careers at our carriers any more. It is a different negotiating environment since deregulation, and one that IMO ALPA has not adjusted to.

We have a winner! Someone gets it.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Negative.

I think this is an incredibly short sighted strategy. The average mainline pilot will spend over ten years of his career at the max longevity rate, but every pilot only spends one year at first year pay. Sacrificing pay at that top longevity to trade for industry-leading first year pay is just not smart strategy.

I already addressed this. Those Captains need quality first year First Officers in the right seat. We don't want spoiled brats with a shiny ERAU diploma being the cream of the crop.

Again this isn't 1940. Basically, the final stop career carriers need to make it financially painless for a RJ CA to move over.

Probation should be an apprentice type professional status not a financial hazing process.

Now, this isn't to say that I believe first year pilots should struggle. The traditional $30/hr first year pay is ridiculous, and that needs to come up at the carriers that still have it. But I see nothing unreasonable about DAL's first year pay, and I don't think it would be prudent to expend bargaining capital on raising that rate any higher than COLA in a new TA.

Maybe DALs pay is do-able for a single guy, but there are real families out there having a tough time.

Again. Senior Capts. don't need 18 days off and 6 weeks of vacation per year while new hire pilots at CAL don't have healthcare and are making 30K/year and qualify for govt assistance.

Again seniority is a valued commodity itself, it doesn't need the icing and sprinkles and sparkles of high days off, large vacation times and other benefits.

The senior guys have let scope go and protected themselves too long and its skewed the system. Time to right size it.


Again.. I'd like to see first year pay over the last 80 years adjusted for inflation to see where its the lowest....

 

[PCL_128]

PCL- i'd like you to respond to my theory that first year pay decreases our leverage- Industry standard is so low that mgmt knows that virtually none of us will leave to start over at another carrier

I agree with your theory, but I believe the only way to correct the issue is to make it an ALPA-wide policy rather than an individual MEC's rallying cry. If we want to decide that ALPA policy requires a minimum first year FO rate to address your concern, then I have no problem with that. If you expect one pilot group to pay for that issue by giving up leverage in the higher rates, without demanding that the other carriers follow, then I think that's unreasonable and a dead-end. Most pilot groups simply aren't going to make it a priority unless a policy requires them to do so.

 

[pilotyip]

Remember all contracts are local in nature, that is why they are called locals. 727 ALPA members at FedEx make more than the 727 ALPA members did at Kitty Hawk, before they went out of business.

 

[osoaus]

Why not make holiday and weekend flying pay a premium? The people who want to go after the extra money and don't care about their weekends/Holidays, have at it.

 

[waveflyer]

You're right PCL
it would take leadership from ALPA national and CAPA-
and it would take local MECs seeing beyond their immediate circumstances and look down the road a ways
neither of which have been things our unions have excelled at in the last decade.
Increasing 1st year pay is the easiest way to address this problem:
that mgmt industry wide has been using our seniority system against us, leaving pilots- as the ones married to the airline financially, to bail out mgmt mistakes.
A national seniority list is the hardest solution.
At some point PCL, you have to get your head out of the process and re-evaluate the long term goals- Put down the checkers and replace them with knights and rooks- but you have to recognize that central problem altogether.

Btw- why couldn't you just do the math and consolidate the first 5 years of FO pay- adjusted for time value of $ so it's no cost to the company-?

Training pay if that's a deal killer could be made a separate pay scale-