If/When Spirit Strikes

[AirCobra]

So what do you suggest when someone shows up with a "great" idea that has already been thru the ringer, no one likes it, no supports it? Should ALPA waste its time, time and time again, to placate bad ideas?

As I said either you have the skillset to bring forth a good idea and get others to work towards implementation.... or you don't. Do you think you do?

All I am trying to get out of you is why you think it is a bad idea, and why if its been thru the ringer why is it being tried again? Is Air Wisconsin wasting its time?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Sorry the 80's.

I doubt you were a UAL pilot. You suggest you were hired in the 90's if you were a FE and furloughed... probably late 90s. You should know this.

All the decades blend together when you are my age. Here is an old time magazine article on the strike. You were probably in high school:

So does your conservative politics.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,957039,00.html

I bring it up as a big deal because starting pay was the major reason guys hired in the months preceding 9/11 did not come back during the first recall. The offer was to return at the pay level you were hired at, not taking into to account you had been on furlough and technically with the company for around five years. This is a screw job either way but if first year pay had not been low more people would have returned. Who would have imagined people would stay at a regional or stay on furlough rather than accept recall from a major. So I strongly disagree that starting pay does not matter and something that happened in 1985 still has implications today.

I am willing to bet that first year pay over the life of the industry corrected for inflation is at its lowest in the 2000s.

My airline is in Section 6 and I am riding my ALPA reps like a show pony about first year pay. The UAL senior guys sold you out.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

All I am trying to get out of you is why you think it is a bad idea, and why if its been thru the ringer why is it being tried again? Is Air Wisconsin wasting its time?

For the love of Jesus, Mary and Joseph and all things holy.

What is good for ARW and their culture and relationship with managment doesn't appear to be good for Spirit.

Why is E&FA, Legal, Spirit MEC and pilots wrong and you right?

If Spirit pilots think striking is their best option, why would you not support that?

 

[AirCobra]

To quote for favortie patriarch Dick C. "So". ARW is not spirit.
Then striking may not work either because Spirit is not Northwest, United, or Comair where the strikes made us stronger!? So that argument works both ways.

How do you know this? Do you have a business background? Economic? Have you signed a CA to look at Spirits books?
Have you? That is my point. How much do you know about economics or running a business, how about Mike O. He doesn't even understand the relationship between growth and profits. Again that argument works both ways.

Then tell us. Kill me if you have to. (Like when Maverick said "I could tell you but then I'd have to kill you") But if you know, then you can tell the general popluation.

You can imagine all you want. Why are you smarter than ALPA E&FA, ALPA Legal, the Spirit MEC who have total SA (not you), and others on the thread?
I think we are all probably of equal intelligence. Its just that some people need to keep telling everyone how smart they are even though they have as about much education and experience as the next guy. I think the management of these airlines and their lawyers are probably smarter than us because they keep getting the upper hand. Maybe we should hire some of their legal people.

This is your "radical idea?"
Seems pretty radical the way you are speaking against it.

 

[AirCobra]

I doubt you were a UAL pilot. You suggest you were hired in the 90's if you were a FE and furloughed... probably late 90s. You should know this.
Sorry I haven't been an airline pilot for nearly 10 years now. You think if I can't remember my anniversary (it was my wedding day for God's sake) I am going to remember the year a strike that happened when I wasn't even at United. Two things at United just get mentioned the "Strike" and "ESOP". People don't give the years. Without looking it up I think the ESOP was 1998 but I am not sure off the top of my head. I was just saying we still felt the ramifications of the strike.


I am willing to bet that first year pay over the life of the industry corrected for inflation is at its lowest in the 2000s.
Definitely

My airline is in Section 6 and I am riding my ALPA reps like a show pony about first year pay. The UAL senior guys sold you out.
I agree with that one. I think Delta sold out Comair too. And I am glad you are riding people about first year pay, my comments were directed at PCL who didn't seem to care.

 

[PCL_128]

PCL I just posted the contracts, did you look at them? BTW the orignial comparison was a senior legacy ramper gets paid what a junior legacy FO does, so what I said still stands.

You're still wrong. A junior legacy FO is making a minimum of about $60k today. The ramper making max longevity pay of $20/hr is getting $50k max, even if you include some overtime.

So we have just given up on first year pay, is that what you are telling me?

No, not "given up," but it's also not the highest of priorities (this is an area on which Rez and I disagree, BTW).

Air Wisconsin employees represented by ALPA, the IAM, and the CWA met in Milwaukee in late Jan. to launch a labor coalition at the airline. The coalition is designed to communication among the employees groups, develop a common bargaining strategy, and eliminate the threat of management pitting employee groups against each other. "It's time we stand together as employees of Air Wisconsin-not alone as pilots, mechanics, dispatchers, and flight attendants of Air Wisconsin" says Capt. Joe Ellis, the pilots' MEC.

You still won't answer the most basic of questions, AC: what good is a labor coalition if you don't use it to exert leverage through self help? What do you hope to accomplish with the coalition? It is useless without self help.

I also don't think Spirit is in good enough financial shape to handle a strike or even strike talk without resorting paycuts, furloughs and a possible bankruptcy filing.

What qualifies you to better determine this than the ALPA reps and staff that have confidentiality agreements with far greater access to this information?

 

[AirCobra]

You're still wrong. A junior legacy FO is making a minimum of about $60k today. The ramper making max longevity pay of $20/hr is getting $50k max, even if you include some overtime.
Sitting on Reserve, $60k? Even if you skin the cat a hundred different ways they are still a lot closer paywise than Mike thinks.


No, not "given up," but it's also not the highest of priorities (this is an area on which Rez and I disagree, BTW).
Okay read my United story, maybe it will change your mind.


You still won't answer the most basic of questions, AC: what good is a labor coalition if you don't use it to exert leverage through self help? What do you hope to accomplish with the coalition? It is useless without self help.
Better bargaining posture and management being unable to pit employee groups against each other.


What qualifies you to better determine this than the ALPA reps and staff that have confidentiality agreements with far greater access to this information?
The employees still authorize the strike vote so they should have as much knowledge as possible going into it. How much can I trust your competence look at anything, how much can you trust me if i was in your position? You did not get voted in based on your ability to analyze financial data did you? I will add this. When have you ever heard, confidentially even, a guy say "hey looking at the books this place won't survive with the concessions we are asking for" Any guy who said that would probably be run out on a rail. So do I believe that in every situation that what we are asking for is not too much (which usually comes down to senior guys taking from junior guys), or I might even add too little...well, not really. Sorry to be from Missouri, but both you and Rez have implied "don't worry Big Daddy will take care of you" or even worse "who are you to question anything we say!" That kind of talk always worries me.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

To quote for favortie patriarch Dick C. "So". ARW is not spirit.
Then striking may not work either because Spirit is not Northwest, United, or Comair where the strikes made us stronger!? So that argument works both ways.

Or it may work. What is wrong with you?

How do you know this? Do you have a business background? Economic? Have you signed a CA to look at Spirits books?
Have you? That is my point. How much do you know about economics or running a business, how about Mike O. He doesn't even understand the relationship between growth and profits. Again that argument works both ways.

Again, over and over with the circular logic. I started this thread with If/when we should support.

Then tell us. Kill me if you have to. (Like when Maverick said "I could tell you but then I'd have to kill you") But if you know, then you can tell the general popluation.

You can imagine all you want. Why are you smarter than ALPA E&FA, ALPA Legal, the Spirit MEC who have total SA (not you), and others on the thread?
I think we are all probably of equal intelligence. Its just that some people need to keep telling everyone how smart they are even though they have as about much education and experience as the next guy. I think the management of these airlines and their lawyers are probably smarter than us because they keep getting the upper hand. Maybe we should hire some of their legal people.

Or perhaps the laws and culture of this country facor business over labor....

This is your "radical idea?"
Seems pretty radical the way you are speaking against it.

Sure....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I doubt you were a UAL pilot. You suggest you were hired in the 90's if you were a FE and furloughed... probably late 90s. You should know this.
Sorry I haven't been an airline pilot for nearly 10 years now. You think if I can't remember my anniversary (it was my wedding day for God's sake) I am going to remember the year a strike that happened when I wasn't even at United. Two things at United just get mentioned the "Strike" and "ESOP". People don't give the years. Without looking it up I think the ESOP was 1998 but I am not sure off the top of my head. I was just saying we still felt the ramifications of the strike.


.

Even I know my UAL history....

 

[PCL_128]

Sitting on Reserve, $60k? Even if you skin the cat a hundred different ways they are still a lot closer paywise than Mike thinks.

Yes, even on reserve. The lowest pay would be at CAL, where they have some pretty junior guys not furloughed, but even there you would be pulling in that much. And let's remember here that we're only talking about the most senior of rampers at the highest paid carriers. Average pay for a ramper is far, far less.

Okay read my United story, maybe it will change your mind.

I believe the better answer to your scenario would be a provision to accrue longevity while on furlough, thereby returning from furlough with a much higher pay rate.

The problem with fighting for much higher first year pay is that management fights it tooth and nail. They'd rather give the 2nd year guy an extra $5 than give the first year guy an extra $1. To them, it's just anathema to pay a guy a high rate when he's still on probation and might not even make it past his first year, plus they're spending $40k on his training and he produces no revenue for them in his first couple of months. So, you always come down to the question at the end of bargaining, do we hold tight and demand industry leading pay for first year FOs, delaying negotiations for months longer and possibly having to go on strike, or do we get the extra few dollars in the second year rate instead and get the deal done? Not exactly an easy decision.

Better bargaining posture and management being unable to pit employee groups against each other.

There is no bargaining without leverage. Management doesn't bargain with you because they want to, they bargain with you because if they don't, you can eventually go on strike and shut down their business. If the threat isn't there, then they have no reason to bargain. The labor coalition is a great deal for increasing leverage, but it is not a source of leverage in and of itself. Only a lawful job action provides that.

The employees still authorize the strike vote so they should have as much knowledge as possible going into it.

It's impossible to provide confidential financial data to the general membership. Companies require confidentiality agreements for a reason.

How much can I trust your competence look at anything, how much can you trust me if i was in your position?

If I elected you, then I would trust you. I would not elect someone if I felt that I couldn't trust his judgement when he told me whether my company could survive a strike or not.

You did not get voted in based on your ability to analyze financial data did you?

Of course not; that's why we have expert financial analysts on staff. The politician's job is to relay the analysis to the membership. He is not doing his own analysis.

I will add this. When have you ever heard, confidentially even, a guy say "hey looking at the books this place won't survive with the concessions we are asking for" Any guy who said that would probably be run out on a rail.

ALPA reps across the industry told pilots following 9/11 that concessions would be necessary. When the data backs it up, the reps have no problem saying it. But when the data backs up big pay raises, they certainly aren't going to back down, either.