If/When Spirit Strikes

[PCL_128]

Well run down the financial justifications for a strike or for that matter what Spirit's pilot group is asking for.

That's not what I was asking you about. I was asking you to justify your claims that ALPA is a failed organization by offering some suggestions for how ALPA should be doing things differently. You have failed to provide even a single suggestion.

All I have been told is Spirit has justification to strike is based on Spirit's profit statement from last year. Pretty simplistic. You say their will be no strike, but there is still plenty of talk about one. Rez seems to be "girding his loins" and that is how this thread started in the first place. This I view as a problem that needs a solution. Rambling? Seems pretty specific. Well what do you know about Spirit's finances and Oaktree Capital? That is second time I asked you that question.

ALPA's Economics & Financial Analysis (E&FA) Department is responsible for examining a company's finances, and they always have to sign confidentiality agreements in order to do so. MECs and Negotiating Committees have to do the same. As you're no doubt aware, companies aren't fond of opening their books to the eyes of everyone in the world. They provide what the law requires to the SEC, but that's it. ALPA is not free to give out more information than is already available publicly. You elect leaders that you trust, and then you trust their judgement when they tell you that the airline is fully capable of funding the contract that you are demanding. If you don't trust your leaders, then elect new ones.

So please forgive me if I don't have the deference you expect for your sage opinion.

I really couldn't care less what you think about my sage or not-so-sage opinions. I just want you to answer some simple questions about what you would do differently. You have consistently failed to do so. That indicates that you have nothing constructive to add, just run of the mill anti-union drivel.

Finally interesting to notice how you are all over my a$$ yet you got a guy here making some pretty heinous accusations about former and current guard and reserve pilots, and not a word from you. Thanks for supporting us.

I thought it was pretty off-topic, so I saw no need to get involved. I think Rez's comments are being misunderstood, though. I think he's just referring to the small group of pilots that do have an attitude problem about receiving a pension check and not caring about upholding the profession. I don't think he's talking about all guard and reserve pilots, or all military pilots in general. To the contrary, I think most former military pilots, after spending a few years at the airlines, are great union members that quickly come to realize that management has no concept for leadership and cares nothing about taking care of their people. In other words, a whole different world from the military.

 

[AirCobra]

Today I got the new Airline Pilot. Two things struck me as very interesting. Page 12:

Air Wisconsin employees represented by ALPA, the IAM, and the CWA met in Milwaukee in late Jan. to launch a labor coalition at the airline. The coalition is designed to communication among the employees groups, develop a common bargaining strategy, and eliminate the threat of management pitting employee groups against each other. "It's time we stand together as employees of Air Wisconsin-not alone as pilots, mechanics, dispatchers, and flight attendants of Air Wisconsin" says Capt. Joe Ellis, the pilots' MEC.

Well gosh. I thought that was a stupid idea from a moron who didn't know what they were talking about. I thought that would make us like Teamsters and that won't work at Spirit, nor at any airline in general. I thought it would weaken ALPA. You guys going to let Capt. Ellis know his statement is moronic?

Some of you guys should shut your mouths and open your ears every once in awhile. Maybe it time you listen. Just because someone may have a few gray hairs does not mean they have gone senile. It might mean they have been around the block a few times, and have experience.

Second interesting point from the ALPA Code of Ethics.

Statement 4. An Airline Pilot will conduct his affairs with other members of the professions and with ALPA in such a manner as to bring credit to the profession and ALPA as well as to himself.

a. He will not falsely or maliciously injure the professional reputation, prospects, or job security of another pilot.

Statement 4 violations. So lets see here we got ALPA members degrading and ridiculing pilots from the USAPA, ALPA leadership saying ALPA members who are military reservists are gaming the system, then calling this blatant accusation "constructive criticism", and an open threat from an ALPA memeber to attempt to get me fired or not hired if they only knew my identity, not to mention a host of name calling. All of this goes uncommented upon by people too concerned with expressing self righteous indignation.

Well what's wrong with ALPA? Maybe its that some of you don't know how to follow your own code of ethics. Its supposed to be a brotherhood, not a cafeteria where you pick and choose what part of our code and canon you are going to abide by. How do we fix ALPA PCL? Well you can start with demonstrating some professionalism. Care to join me in helping our brother who may have lost his way in regards to military pilots, or our brother who may lost his way in regards to threatening the jobs of pilots, or the many of our brothers who have hurled insults or resorted to name calling, or our brother that belittles fellow members of our profession who happen to be in another union?

 

[PCL_128]

Today I got the new Airline Pilot. Two things struck me as very interesting. Page 12:

Air Wisconsin employees represented by ALPA, the IAM, and the CWA met in Milwaukee in late Jan. to launch a labor coalition at the airline. The coalition is designed to communication among the employees groups, develop a common bargaining strategy, and eliminate the threat of management pitting employee groups against each other. "It's time we stand together as employees of Air Wisconsin-not alone as pilots, mechanics, dispatchers, and flight attendants of Air Wisconsin" says Capt. Joe Ellis, the pilots' MEC.

Well gosh. I thought that was a stupid idea from a moron who didn't know what they were talking about. I thought that would make us like Teamsters and that won't work at Spirit, nor at any airline in general. I thought it would weaken ALPA. You guys going to let Capt. Ellis know his statement is moronic?

I hate to break it to you, but labor coalitions are nothing new. ALPA has been employing them for years. Northwest and Mesaba are probably the best examples, and they worked great. The problem is that it requires the willingness of the other labor groups to get involved, which means that you can't get them put together at every airline, but they work great at carriers where the other labor groups are willing to get on board.

Well you can start with demonstrating some professionalism. Care to join me in helping our brother who may have lost his way in regards to military pilots, or our brother who may lost his way in regards to threatening the jobs of pilots, or the many of our brothers who have hurled insults or resorted to name calling, or our brother that belittles fellow members of our profession who happen to be in another union?

Again, I think you've misunderstood Rez on the military issue, but that's between the two of you. Regarding threats to other pilots' jobs, that's obviously not appropriate, but I must have missed the posts in which that happened on this thread. About USAPA, I don't think anyone is violating the ALPA Code of Ethics simply by pointing out the lack of ethics involved in the entire USAPA movement.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

AC and YIP-

Why is it you are willing to travel the world to kill people in war, coerce them into a certain behavior and action but when it comes to your fellow Americans and pilots who are simply trying to feed their families, keep their house, get reasonable healthcare and a decent retirement you expect them to be subservient?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Or how does a minority group of pilots who snub hard working volunteers trying to keep this job a profession help unity? When you got MIL guys and pilots with sugar mamas who just fly as a hobby job and really don't care about making a living.... how does that help with unity? Can you answer this please?

These are your accusations and your personal prejudice. I made $12,000 last year form my service in the Reserve's and a retired O-4 probabaly pulls in about $45,000 a year (even combined that with starting FO pay it comes in well belowsenior Captain pay for a guy nearing his 50's), so WTF are you talking about?

Not you obviously..

There have been tighter controls but in the 90s I've heard more than one reserve/guard guy say.. "if I don't get the days off I want I'll just tell scheduling I got to pull a guard weekend...."
USERRA regulations are the same, there are no tighter controls so WTF are you talking about? Being in the Reserves is work, it is not a day off. You want a smaller active duty force, well who do you think picks up the load from everything from air defense, SAR, and humanitarian relief, not to mention two wars, and Kososvo? If someone tells their employer they are going to drill and then they don't that is punishable under the UCMJ. So WTF are you talking about? Ever worked with ALPA and military affairs, and USERRA to protect guardsmen and reservists from hostile employer actions and prejudice like you have expressed?

I am talking about airlines who began requiring orders from the unit CO.... due to a few bad apples...

Why is it when any constructive criticism of the MIL is brought up you can't accept it, but then you claim that ALPA should accept criticism... more hypocrisy on your end...
Its not constructive criticism, its you making accusations based on your personal prejudice. If you know guys in the reserve doing what you just mentioned, call their unit. If you are wrong maybe you will get a harassment complaint filed against you. If you are making the accusation it is up to you to prove it. The balls in your court.

Naw, you can rat out your fellow service men and fellow pilots, that is not my style...

In fact we've been waiting for days now for you to offer constructive ALPA criticism and solutions... but you failed. Take note: any constructive MIL criticism is met with accusations of being unpatriotic, socialist, ungrateful, and with invitations to leave the state. Whereas, you are being asked multiple times to constructively criticise. Please... address the following:
I never said anything of the sort. You made baseless accusations that I quoted. Everything I stated were your words, not mine. You have a problem with the military. Your criticism is not constructive, its accusatory based solely on your personal bias.

You never labeled me a socialist?

Three direct replies here:

You've stated that you think Spirit pilots should not use the strike route, not seek out support from non-Spirit pilot groups and form alliances and coalitions with other Spirit labor groups. Ok, fine... where is the coercion or influence in this game plan to get mgmnt to negotiate fairly and timely?

You said we should support Spirit if they strike. Where was the question should Spirit strike in the first place, or how far do we go to prevent a strike.
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That is up to the Spirit pilots not you. If they decide to strike, I say we support them.

Mike said his information about Spirit's financials and profits were based on LPA information, and the fact that Spirit made a profit was justification for a strike. Since Spirit is not publicly traded I wanted to know more about ALPA's methodology in determining if a strike is warranted based on financial information, what ALPA knows about Oaktree Capital, and if ALPA's demands are reasonable or too conservative. Negotiating based on last years profits, and commenting that Spirit is strong because it is purchasing new aircraft seems a bit questionable to me as a primary justification. To move forward with support for a strike I believe ALPA should demonstrate a much better grasp on the situation. Mikes reasoning did not give me the feeling he fully understood what was going on. If that is ALPA's failure or his I don't know. A strike may be the only alternative and a better understanding of Spirit's financial may mean you are asking for too little, but who knows with the level of understanding that has been exhibited here. My skepticism is only due to Spirits rep as a cut rate bargain basement airline, and that they aren't as well off as you like to think solely based on some ALPA generated data. That is just my opinion. All I have to say is "it's Spirit we are talking about" to justify my opinion and people will know what I mean. I think we need more financial data to justify the strike position. Unless we all really don't care and good riddance to another bottom feeder airline.

In addition you stated a radical cultural shift in ALPA? What exactly do you mean by this? and HOW will it get done?
We start by recognizing our failures, analyzing what went wrong and not making the same mistakes the next time. Think about the last three strikes we had. United, Comair, and Northwest. Where are those airlines today? Collapsing, Collapsing, and merged with Delta. Nothing can be learned from this? Just blame management is all we have to offer? Was collapsing, collapsing, and merged with Delta what we thought would happen? Was it our long term goal, to sacrifice for short term gain? Did we expect Delta pilots not to support Comair? Did we want 40% of domestic flying going to lower paid pilots. Why are they flying those routes in the first place if we are all ALPA. How did management pull that one off? Okay if all the airlines sucked and got what they deserved, good riddance to the bottom feeders. I think we are going to run out of bottom feeders before too long if this keeps up. What's up with scope, age 65, pensions? People sound the alarm and are shouted down.

Again, that is Spirits call to make. Not yours. The financials is not your concern. If the pilots at Spirit feel it is time to strike, will you support them, yes or no.

But again and as usual, you deflect. You stated that a Spirit wide labor coalition, not support from other pilot groups was best. I ask again, how is this going to leverage Spirit management? Where is the coercion?

You also stated that changing the CFR and the old and new ways. But you have yet to state that you participate in ALPA or UP PAC. Why? And if you won't do the PAC how do you expect ALPA to change CFRs?
Rez how many discussions have we had about your litmus tests? Whatever I did or didn't do you will mock me for, it's your thing to set a standard that no one meets and then admonish them for it.

So you never backed the ALPA or UP PAC. Got it. It was $5 measly dollars per month. What? You were too cheap? Or too obedient to your patriarch; UAL mgmt.

When have you ever said you should have done more, or done things differently. Few people make themselves out to be the great paragon of virtue that you do. Its not an insult, its just the character of your posts. I will give you my litmus test. Apologize to all ALPA members for you false accusations and mischaracterizations of military service. You can start here anonymously with a few posts in a couple of different threads. Join or create a committee at your airline to protect the rights of reservists harassed by management, and well... basically coworkers like you, and become an expert in USERRA and support the ESGR.

I already supported MIL pilots as a jumpseat chairman and making sure they could get to/from guard weekends (they drop out of CASS) and as a status rep when they return from service and the company wants to throw them online with minimal training, lower seniority or an FO position when it should be CA.
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Not sure why you have to defend bad apples... then again, criticism and the truth seem to be difficult for you....


And we are back to the beginning... no reasonable criticism of ALPA or the ability to offer solutions.....

You spoke of this needed radical shift at ALPA.... what do you mean and how does it get done?

 

[AirCobra]

I hate to break it to you, but labor coalitions are nothing new. ALPA has been employing them for years. Northwest and Mesaba are probably the best examples, and they worked great. The problem is that it requires the willingness of the other labor groups to get involved, which means that you can't get them put together at every airline, but they work great at carriers where the other labor groups are willing to get on board.

But last week they were moronic, untenable, and a suggestion that would only be made by somone who didn't know what they were talking about. Guess things change fast.


Again, I think you've misunderstood Rez on the military issue, but that's between the two of you. Regarding threats to other pilots' jobs, that's obviously not appropriate, but I must have missed the posts in which that happened on this thread. About USAPA, I don't think anyone is violating the ALPA Code of Ethics simply by pointing out the lack of ethics involved in the entire USAPA movement.
He said military pilots game the system. What is there to be misunderstood? He said military pilots drive down wages. What is there to be misunderstood?

 

[AirCobra]

AC and YIP-

Why is it you are willing to travel the world to kill people in war, coerce them into a certain behavior and action but when it comes to your fellow Americans and pilots who are simply trying to feed their families, keep their house, get reasonable healthcare and a decent retirement you expect them to be subservient?

Yeah like that evil MEC over at Air Wisconsin who pretty much said the same thing I did. Maybe you and your pals can get him fired.

 

[AirCobra]

Naw, you can rat out your fellow service men and fellow pilots, that is not my style...

No your style is to make unsubstansiated allegations. Very professional!

 

[AirCobra]

I already supported MIL pilots as a jumpseat chairman and making sure they could get to/from guard weekends (they drop out of CASS) and as a status rep when they return from service and the company wants to throw them online with minimal training, lower seniority or an FO position when it should be CA.
​

Not sure why you have to defend bad apples... then again, criticism and the truth seem to be difficult for you....

Yeah but then if a Reservist is activated for a few months right after they are hired or while sitting reserve you cast aspersions on them and tell everyone to be on the lookout. Once again, very professional?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Still waiting:

How is a labor coalition better than a strike?

What is this radical shift needed in ALPA and how do you get it done?