If/When Spirit Strikes

[9rj9]

So a return to regulation and elimination of a lot of pilot jobs is the answer? Great for senior guys, not too good for anyone else.

are you paid buy those union busting lawyers to be on here nonstop. oh, and no one cares what you have to say, they just like bashing you. get a life, oh its getting late for that, so sad you wasted it.

 

[AirCobra]

Or how does a minority group of pilots who snub hard working volunteers trying to keep this job a profession help unity? When you got MIL guys and pilots with sugar mamas who just fly as a hobby job and really don't care about making a living.... how does that help with unity? Can you answer this please?

These are your accusations and your personal prejudice. I made $12,000 last year form my service in the Reserve's and a retired O-4 probabaly pulls in about $45,000 a year (even combined that with starting FO pay it comes in well belowsenior Captain pay for a guy nearing his 50's), so WTF are you talking about?

There have been tighter controls but in the 90s I've heard more than one reserve/guard guy say.. "if I don't get the days off I want I'll just tell scheduling I got to pull a guard weekend...."
USERRA regulations are the same, there are no tighter controls so WTF are you talking about? Being in the Reserves is work, it is not a day off. You want a smaller active duty force, well who do you think picks up the load from everything from air defense, SAR, and humanitarian relief, not to mention two wars, and Kososvo? If someone tells their employer they are going to drill and then they don't that is punishable under the UCMJ. So WTF are you talking about? Ever worked with ALPA and military affairs, and USERRA to protect guardsmen and reservists from hostile employer actions and prejudice like you have expressed?

Why is it when any constructive criticism of the MIL is brought up you can't accept it, but then you claim that ALPA should accept criticism... more hypocrisy on your end...
Its not constructive criticism, its you making accusations based on your personal prejudice. If you know guys in the reserve doing what you just mentioned, call their unit. If you are wrong maybe you will get a harassment complaint filed against you. If you are making the accusation it is up to you to prove it. The balls in your court.

In fact we've been waiting for days now for you to offer constructive ALPA criticism and solutions... but you failed. Take note: any constructive MIL criticism is met with accusations of being unpatriotic, socialist, ungrateful, and with invitations to leave the state. Whereas, you are being asked multiple times to constructively criticise. Please... address the following:
I never said anything of the sort. You made baseless accusations that I quoted. Everything I stated were your words, not mine. You have a problem with the military. Your criticism is not constructive, its accusatory based solely on your personal bias.

Three direct replies here:

You've stated that you think Spirit pilots should not use the strike route, not seek out support from non-Spirit pilot groups and form alliances and coalitions with other Spirit labor groups. Ok, fine... where is the coercion or influence in this game plan to get mgmnt to negotiate fairly and timely?

You said we should support Spirit if they strike. Where was the question should Spirit strike in the first place, or how far do we go to prevent a strike. Mike said his information about Spirit's financials and profits were based on LPA information, and the fact that Spirit made a profit was justification for a strike. Since Spirit is not publicly traded I wanted to know more about ALPA's methodology in determining if a strike is warranted based on financial information, what ALPA knows about Oaktree Capital, and if ALPA's demands are reasonable or too conservative. Negotiating based on last years profits, and commenting that Spirit is strong because it is purchasing new aircraft seems a bit questionable to me as a primary justification. To move forward with support for a strike I believe ALPA should demonstrate a much better grasp on the situation. Mikes reasoning did not give me the feeling he fully understood what was going on. If that is ALPA's failure or his I don't know. A strike may be the only alternative and a better understanding of Spirit's financial may mean you are asking for too little, but who knows with the level of understanding that has been exhibited here. My skepticism is only due to Spirits rep as a cut rate bargain basement airline, and that they aren't as well off as you like to think solely based on some ALPA generated data. That is just my opinion. All I have to say is "it's Spirit we are talking about" to justify my opinion and people will know what I mean. I think we need more financial data to justify the strike position. Unless we all really don't care and good riddance to another bottom feeder airline.

In addition you stated a radical cultural shift in ALPA? What exactly do you mean by this? and HOW will it get done?
We start by recognizing our failures, analyzing what went wrong and not making the same mistakes the next time. Think about the last three strikes we had. United, Comair, and Northwest. Where are those airlines today? Collapsing, Collapsing, and merged with Delta. Nothing can be learned from this? Just blame management is all we have to offer? Was collapsing, collapsing, and merged with Delta what we thought would happen? Was it our long term goal, to sacrifice for short term gain? Did we expect Delta pilots not to support Comair? Did we want 40% of domestic flying going to lower paid pilots. Why are they flying those routes in the first place if we are all ALPA. How did management pull that one off? Okay if all the airlines sucked and got what they deserved, good riddance to the bottom feeders. I think we are going to run out of bottom feeders before too long if this keeps up. What's up with scope, age 65, pensions? People sound the alarm and are shouted down.

You also stated that changing the CFR and the old and new ways. But you have yet to state that you participate in ALPA or UP PAC. Why? And if you won't do the PAC how do you expect ALPA to change CFRs?
Rez how many discussions have we had about your litmus tests? Whatever I did or didn't do you will mock me for, it's your thing to set a standard that no one meets and then admonish them for it. When have you ever said you should have done more, or done things differently. Few people make themselves out to be the great paragon of virtue that you do. Its not an insult, its just the character of your posts. I will give you my litmus test. Apologize to all ALPA members for you false accusations and mischaracterizations of military service. You can start here anonymously with a few posts in a couple of different threads. Join or create a committee at your airline to protect the rights of reservists harassed by management, and well... basically coworkers like you, and become an expert in USERRA and support the ESGR.

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[PCL_128]

Still no solutions, just rambling. I'm not surprised, sadly.

 

[DonVerita]

Sensationalizing! You mean the IAM's claim isn't sensationalizing. If it were such a serious issue that took away jobs it would be a provision in every IAM contract, but it isn't.

Again you characterize the labor situation at your previous airline by throwing a gallon of paint on the wall and seeing how much of it splashes in all directions. In other words, you have no precise arguement(s) that you can call on in defense of your actions.

The IAM's claim, from what you've posted so far, is completely warranted. YOU did work that was scheduled for an IAM member to do. YOU got written up. Period. The fact that it is not in every IAM contract and therefore somehow makes it less important is without merit. To think otherwise would be like me saying that just because "every" car does not have Side Curtain Airbags, that does not make them a "serious issue".

For your jab at Lear70 regarding him not getting his OJI claim paid...do you have 1 ounce of facts related to his case? Better yet, let me ask you this - Have you ever sat across the table from vicious, vindictive Company management and their attack dog lawyers? If not, then you have no idea what it's like to walk a day in Lear70's shoes...or to win an OJI case. Come to think of it, I don't think you ever sat across the table from these people...you most likely sat next to them.

 

[AirCobra]

Still no solutions, just rambling. I'm not surprised, sadly.

Well run down the financial justifications for a strike or for that matter what Spirit's pilot group is asking for. How am I supposed to know even if they are being undercut? All I have been told is Spirit has justification to strike is based on Spirit's profit statement from last year. Pretty simplistic. You say their will be no strike, but there is still plenty of talk about one. Rez seems to be "girding his loins" and that is how this thread started in the first place. This I view as a problem that needs a solution. Rambling? Seems pretty specific. Well what do you know about Spirit's finances and Oaktree Capital? That is second time I asked you that question. If you are ALPA leadership is this how you address the questions of your union brothers? Oh yeah I forgot, looking at your previous posts, it is exactly how you address questions to the dozens of "haters" that are multiplying each time they come up against this kind of attitude from leadership.

Let me add this. If you are at Air Tran how long have you been in ALPA, the last couple of weeks? Let me guess before that you were probably at an airline with ...Express after its name. Well a few guys here, and guys you went after in other posts, have been around the block a few times. Where were you in 2001? How about 20 or 30 years ago? So please forgive me if I don't have the deference you expect for your sage opinion. Problem is we have seen most of it before, and seen the results. BTW the employee unity stuff I am talking about is not some alien concept. ALPA has talking about it for decades. Look it up if you don't believe me.

Finally interesting to notice how you are all over my a$$ yet you got a guy here making some pretty heinous accusations about former and current guard and reserve pilots, and not a word from you. Thanks for supporting us.

 

[AirCobra]

Again you characterize the labor situation at your previous airline by throwing a gallon of paint on the wall and seeing how much of it splashes in all directions. In other words, you have no precise arguement(s) that you can call on in defense of your actions.

The IAM's claim, from what you've posted so far, is completely warranted. YOU did work that was scheduled for an IAM member to do. YOU got written up. Period. The fact that it is not in every IAM contract and therefore somehow makes it less important is without merit. To think otherwise would be like me saying that just because "every" car does not have Side Curtain Airbags, that does not make them a "serious issue".

For your jab at Lear70 regarding him not getting his OJI claim paid...do you have 1 ounce of facts related to his case? Better yet, let me ask you this - Have you ever sat across the table from vicious, vindictive Company management and their attack dog lawyers? If not, then you have no idea what it's like to walk a day in Lear70's shoes...or to win an OJI case. Come to think of it, I don't think you ever sat across the table from these people...you most likely sat next to them.

Lear's situation didn't apply to your example, thats all. If I had to make a claim it would have been for tripping down the stairs. How would the bag have even been involved?

Oh you forgot to answer how often you have done the same sort of thing. I am pretty sure your answer will not be "never." You misunderstood what I was talking about anyway.

Since we are defending people and walking in their shoes, do you have any words in defense for your coworkers in the Guard and Reserve?

 

[pilotyip]

Having a ball

are you paid buy those union busting lawyers to be on here nonstop. oh, and no one cares what you have to say, they just like bashing you. get a life, oh its getting late for that, so sad you wasted it.

Its fun to watch every time a reality is posted here, the insults fly, the names are called, and personal attacks rule the day. Don't worry about me, I am still living a childhood dream a being a Navy pilot and everything else has paled compared to that. The market and individual self-interest will dictate what wages should be. It is basic economics, if you raise the price of commodity, less people will purchase that commodity. It is neither management nor unions that can operate without considering the impact on the consumer who has instant access to the cheapest fare on every route. With less people purchasing there is not as much demand for that commodity, therefore there will be fewer, but better paid pilots. That is what we had under Regulation. It goes back to my first post when I asked "What if Spirit goes out of business?" and that is a possibility that has to be considered. But if you say anything but "Bring on the Strike, show them who is boss", you can count on being attacked. Sleep tight

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Its fun to watch every time a reality is posted here, the insults fly, the names are called, and personal attacks rule the day. Don't worry about me, I am still living a childhood dream a being a Navy pilot and everything else has paled compared to that. The market and individual self-interest will dictate what wages should be. It is basic economics, if you raise the price of commodity, less people will purchase that commodity. It is neither management nor unions that can operate without considering the impact on the consumer who has instant access to the cheapest fare on every route. With less people purchasing there is not as much demand for that commodity, therefore there will be fewer, but better paid pilots. That is what we had under Regulation. It goes back to my first post when I asked "What if Spirit goes out of business?" and that is a possibility that has to be considered. But if you say anything but "Bring on the Strike, show them who is boss", you can count on being attacked. Sleep tight

Ok, I'll go along with your commodity sentence.
So on the flip side, when that price becomes so low that corners have to be cut, do ******************** hole outfits like yours skimp on maint, or fly with that "broken piece of equipment" because you can't afford good equipment or reliable maint. procedures?

 

[Lear70]

Lear's situation didn't apply to your example, thats all. If I had to make a claim it would have been for tripping down the stairs. How would the bag have even been involved?

It was completely applicable.

You took a bag downstairs to "help the team" and help get the flight out on time.

I went and got a stroller out of a forward cargo compartment to "help the team", help a passenger with a disabled pre-teen child, and help us get to the overnight on a short layover in DTW. I tore my shoulder doing it. 2 years getting my OJI back.

Again, everything isn't always just as easy as it seems... Life never is.

 

[AirCobra]

It was completely applicable.

You took a bag downstairs to "help the team" and help get the flight out on time.

I went and got a stroller out of a forward cargo compartment to "help the team", help a passenger with a disabled pre-teen child, and help us get to the overnight on a short layover in DTW. I tore my shoulder doing it. 2 years getting my OJI back.

Again, everything isn't always just as easy as it seems... Life never is.

Well there you go, the first person not to take the self righteous attitude and admit they did what we all have done. After this episode how would you have liked a grievance filed against you? Not saying your or my actions were right but there is the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. A good working relationship and some unity among work groups at United and a simple "hey let me get that, you are not supposed to touch any bags" would have ended the whole situation. It wasn't just pilots, the rampers and CS were merciless with each other. I was told by a shop steward they liked filing grievances against each other because they got to get away from the gate for about 30 minutes to do paperwork and wait to talk to a supervisor, so I guess it got a little out of control.

My point was never to justify the situation as being right, but to point out the lack of unity between our respective work groups. I would like to know how you feel about threats and accusations by one pilot to another. Seem everyone has plenty of time to comment on this situation but lets allegations of fraud, name calling, and threats go on without even a murmur.