If the tables were turned UPS/ASTAR(DHL Airways INC)

[shooter]

So. Tell me what's anti-competitive? ABX ran the sorting of DHL volume, now UPS will run the sorting of DHL volume. DHL will still pick up and deliver under their own brand. Sounds like you are grasping at straws.

Not grasping at straws. But you seem to be to get this freight.

If you still wonder why I think this deal is anti-competitive, I will try and explain in further detail. For the following I would like you to think back to when UPS went on strike and how customers were able to get their packages.

The USPS tries to insulate themselves by using multiple carriers (FedEx, UPS and passenger carriers) and they use their own sorts. As a matter of fact, ABX does the sort work in a few of their locations. So If FedEx were to go on strike they have UPS and passenger carriers to get their customers freight moved.

If this deal goes through, UPS will control the flying and sorting for the DHL customers. If they were to go on strike DHL customers would be struck as well. Plus the USPS they already move for them. That would leave FedEx picking up much of the USPS, FedEx customers that have dual accounts diverting their packages through them and where will the remaining UPS and DHL customers go? Nowhere would be the correct answer. FedEx will be the sole carrier flying their customers and consumers would be crippled.

I’m not a business attorney, but as a consumer I find that highly anti-competitive and bad for consumers. But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

If you still can't see how it is bad for consumers, you need to take your blinders off.

 

[Browntothebone]

Not grasping at straws. But you seem to be to get this freight.

If you still wonder why I think this deal is anti-competitive, I will try and explain in further detail. For the following I would like you to think back to when UPS went on strike and how customers were able to get their packages.

The USPS tries to insulate themselves by using multiple carriers (FedEx, UPS and passenger carriers) and they use their own sorts. As a matter of fact, ABX does the sort work in a few of their locations. So If FedEx were to go on strike they have UPS and passenger carriers to get their customers freight moved.

If this deal goes through, UPS will control the flying and sorting for the DHL customers. If they were to go on strike DHL customers would be struck as well. Plus the USPS they already move for them. That would leave FedEx picking up much of the USPS, FedEx customers that have dual accounts diverting their packages through them and where will the remaining UPS and DHL customers go? Nowhere would be the correct answer. FedEx will be the sole carrier flying their customers and consumers would be crippled.

I’m not a business attorney, but as a consumer I find that highly anti-competitive and bad for consumers. But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

If you still can't see how it is bad for consumers, you need to take your blinders off.

You mean kinda like when the APWU tried to unionize the sorters in ILN? What if they went on strike? No DHL volume would move. According to your scenario, your own operation would be anti-competitive. If ABX or Astar pilots went on strike, the other would most assuredly not cross their picket line in ILN, therefore shutting down the sort. That's anti-competitive too.


As for bad for consumers, you are wrong. Both UPS and FedEx provide much better service than DHL does.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

So If FedEx were to go on strike they have UPS and passenger carriers to get their customers freight moved.

LOL! :laugh:

Shooter... you must be new to this industry to think UPS has enough spare capacity to pick up all the USPS volume that FedEx currently hauls.

If FedEx pilots were to strike, UPS would have their hands and planes full of express packages that shippers previously split between Fred and UPS.

I agree with BrownToThe Bone. This will be approved as just a change in subcontractors. There's nothing to see here, move along.

BBB

 

[shooter]

You mean kinda like when the APWU tried to unionize the sorters in ILN? What if they went on strike? No DHL volume would move. According to your scenario, your own operation would be anti-competitive. If ABX or Astar pilots went on strike, the other would most assuredly not cross their picket line in ILN, therefore shutting down the sort. That's anti-competitive too.


As for bad for consumers, you are wrong. Both UPS and FedEx provide much better service than DHL does.

When you have a 3rd competitor it absorbs the volume. Your name should be headboneisnumb.

DHL crappy drivers are better than no UPS or FedEx drivers.

 

[HD2003]

BrowntotheboneSo. said Tell me what's anti-competitive? ABX ran the sorting of DHL volume, now UPS will run the sorting of DHL volume. DHL will still pick up and deliver under their own brand. Sounds like you are grasping at straws.





Whatever makes you feel better!


The deal as proposed will restrain the competitive pricing for these services by effectively eliminating DHL as a competitor in the market. By contracting with UPS for the most critical element of their business, DHL will indirectly relinquish the ability to set its’ own prices. Once UPS has taken over the air services and put the current service providers out of business, DHL will have no other options for their lift and will be at UPS’s mercy. UPS will take over de facto control of the pricing of the DHL product in the United States.


ASTAR Pilots are still fighting over scope. You would understand If your company just ignored your contract as ours has. I hope you have better luck than us. Two more Pilot groups with good contracts going away doesn't help anyone.

 

[shooter]

LOL! :laugh:

Shooter... you must be new to this industry to think UPS has enough spare capacity to pick up all the USPS volume that FedEx currently hauls.

If FedEx pilots were to strike, UPS would have their hands and planes full of express packages that shippers previously split between Fred and UPS.

I agree with BrownToThe Bone. This will be approved as just a change in subcontractors. There's nothing to see here, move along.

BBB

You have proved my point. When 1 goes on strike you now have 2 options. When DHL goes to UPS there will be only 1 and that is not good for consumers.

And PLEASE, both of you move along now.

 

[xspud]

So. Tell me what's anti-competitive? ABX ran the sorting of DHL volume, now UPS will run the sorting of DHL volume. DHL will still pick up and deliver under their own brand. Sounds like you are grasping at straws.

The difference is that DHL is handing their sort and delivery to a major competitor. Don't be deceived, DHL is effectively handing over their U.S. business to UPS. DHL will cease to exist as a viable shipping alternative. Why are they doing that? Perhaps they truly have decided that it's hopeless to compete in the U.S. market and they're desperate enough to pay billions more to get out. Or, perhaps there's more than meets the eye...I hope for brown's sake that UPS is smart enough to continue to control their own lift/delivery in the international arena, and I hope that the brown pilot union is loaded and ready for the battle over outsourcing. Unfortunately, we've seen time and time again how weak "scope" is.

As others have said, anti-trust is all about consumer pricing which is a very difficult case to make. In the end, big business will almost certainly get what big business wants.

UPS is clearly the stronger competitor and the strongest is poised to survive. Hopefully until you're comfortably retired.

I'm not trying to flame ya, browntothebone. I honestly wish the UPS employees all the best. I've been working for the airlines for 34 years now (starting as a cargo handler) and I have no regrets. It's been a great ride and I'm beginning to look forward to moving on to the next season of my life.

The saddest part is the economic devastation that is to come in ILN/SW Ohio. For the sake of that community, I wish there were some way to patch this thing up.

 

[Browntothebone]

BrowntotheboneSo. said Tell me what's anti-competitive? ABX ran the sorting of DHL volume, now UPS will run the sorting of DHL volume. DHL will still pick up and deliver under their own brand. Sounds like you are grasping at straws.





Whatever makes you feel better!


The deal as proposed will restrain the competitive pricing for these services by effectively eliminating DHL as a competitor in the market. By contracting with UPS for the most critical element of their business, DHL will indirectly relinquish the ability to set its’ own prices. Once UPS has taken over the air services and put the current service providers out of business, DHL will have no other options for their lift and will be at UPS’s mercy. UPS will take over de facto control of the pricing of the DHL product in the United States.


ASTAR Pilots are still fighting over scope. You would understand If your company just ignored your contract as ours has. I hope you have better luck than us. Two more Pilot groups with good contracts going away doesn't help anyone.

The single most important part of the total service is the professional, polite, clean-cut deliver service provider, as UPS calls it's drivers. We pilots are nothing more than just enablers to allow him to do his job.

 

[Browntothebone]

You have proved my point. When 1 goes on strike you now have 2 options. When DHL goes to UPS there will be only 1 and that is not good for consumers.

And PLEASE, both of you move along now.

BBB and I are not going anywhere. Where will you be moving to?

 

[HD2003]

The single most important part of the total service is the professional, polite, clean-cut deliver service provider, as UPS calls it's drivers. We pilots are nothing more than just enablers to allow him to do his job.

Whatever makes you feel better. The fact that this is our freight - Is still being fought in court. You tell yourself whatever you have to. Try to put yourself In our shoes for one minute. We were DHL. Management figured out a way to screw us. Now your going to fly our freight.

 

[Browntothebone]

Airfreight & Logistics (Market Underweight): We spoke with a
representative from the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) regarding DHL's
proposed airport-to-airport aircraft line-haul agreement with UPS and the
potential impact on the union's membership at Astar Air Cargo. On May 28,
Deutsche Post/DHL announced that UPS would replace Astar and ABX Air as DHL's
primary airport-to-airport linehaul provider for its Domestic U.S. Express
service. DHL will continue to provide its profitable International Express
service (import/export) and Domestic U.S. Express pick-up and delivery
service. According to our contact, the resulting closure of DHL's Wilmington
hub could potentially lead to the loss of 11,000 jobs (directly and
indirectly) significantly impacting Astar and The Air Line Pilots
Association (ALPA) amongst others. Thus far ALPA has filed grievances with
Astar and has contacted the DoJ, relevant congressional representatives and
the state of Ohio. Our contact further noted that ALPA had just recently
signed a collective bargaining agreement on March 8 with Astar (DHL
maintains a 49% interest in Astar) which included a number of provisions
related to DHL's potential withdrawal from the domestic U.S. express
business. According to our contact, these provisions do not allow for the
transfer of that business to another service provider, let alone one of DHL's
own largest competitors. Our contact also discussed potential
antitrust-related issues associated with the agreement citing UPS combined
U.S. Domestic Air and Ground Express market share of about 50% compared to
22% for FDX and 4% for DHL. [Our sense is that the deal between DHL and UPS
may be subject to increased scrutiny over the near term. However, this seems
like a vendor agreement and not an ownership change or even client
partnership, so it is not likely subject to antitrust review. - Wolfe
Research comment]

 

[356emain]

The reason why mr. bone and mr. belly are trying to justify why our jobs are going away is because they know if they do not get the DHL deal they will either go back to the panel or out on the street fairly soon.

 

[penguin22]

I don’t think the deal will get halted because of antitrust issues or anything else. Don’t think there’s anything to stop it. But I do still wonder if there isn’t something more going on here because the deal on its own just doesn’t make any business sense from DHL’s perspective

as Congressman Mike Turner said:
“Five years ago, if UPS and DHL had announced the formation of a strategic alliance that would include the acquisition of Emery and Airborne and the consolidation of all four companies' U.S. operations, antitrust alarms would be blaring. Certainly, this new transaction needs to be viewed in light of the possibility that the acquisitions of Emery and Airborne were steps one and two of a stepped transaction. Perhaps, the UPS-DHL combination is step three.”

And what’s step four? I’m wondering what the whole UPS/DHL relationship will look like 5 years from now. I think the UPS guys should keep a close eye on their freight once it’s overseas. They could see their international flying shrink as it moves to other channels.

Are you also suing ABX (ATSG) for flying YOUR freight?

And that’s just plain funny. Déjà vu all over again!

 

[eatme]

Is anyone at DHL considering pay and benefit cuts to retain the flying? (don't work there so don't shoot the messenger).

 

[penguin22]

Is anyone at DHL considering pay and benefit cuts to retain the flying? (don't work there so don't shoot the messenger).

ABX is considering pay and benefit cuts to compete in the ACMI arena after DHL is gone. No concessions in a futile attempt to keep any DHL flying.

I say good riddance to DHL. We're better off without them. Unfortunately for hundreds of ABX pilots and their families, we're also a lot smaller