If everyone hates their airline why not quit

[sweptback]

In an environment where we have RJ crews declairing an emergency for the loss of an FMS (it happened in NY airspace)

You know, I've flown with many guys that said that they would do the same thing, or refuse an airplane with a deferred FMS. I don't get it. Didn't we all fly airplanes without an FMS at one point?

What's sad are the guys starting out in the glass cockpit 172s that really haven't...

 

[av8er2]

Complaining is useful information, it tells people what it is like out here. I am sick and tired of the 200 hour pilot, or non pilot, or anything else than an experienced airline pilot telling us "whats up, you don't like your job, I don't understand that".

When I was low time I said the same stuff, "why does that UsAir captain sound so down about his job, he's got such a good life".

Well now I know.

Everyone else in my shoes has the same complaints I do. If you have not been here, save your comments because it is not a dream job anymore. Mgt. like ASA's is seeing sure this job is not a dream job, they don't give a ---- about the pilots.

This is productive complaining!!

 

[ohplease!]

Very well said T-Prop.

 

[Fly2Scuba]

I love these threads

Nice post av8er2!

Just to expand on that, the supply of pilots is definitly a concern. All these aviation universities and schools are in business to generally maximize their student base and convince people that a "lucrative" airline job awaits. The word needs to get out that it isn't reaching nirvana to become an airline pilot. This is coming from a former aviation university student and now airline pilot. When I went through school, you could rent a 152 for $40 an hour and a seminole for $120. Can't imagine paying today's prices to achieve this "lucrative" career.

But to answer the original question of this thread, good contracts ("lucrative"?) are somewhat achieved through complaining. Unfortunately those types of contracts are becoming increasingly difficult to achieve due to the state of the industry and all the issues surrounding it including my first paragraph.

 

[Nancy Pryor]

Learn the basics or you're not a pilot you're a monkey

You know, I've flown with many guys that said that they would do the same thing, or refuse an airplane with a deferred FMS. I don't get it. Didn't we all fly airplanes without an FMS at one point?

What's sad are the guys starting out in the glass cockpit 172s that really haven't...

Amen brother. Real pilots know how to fly without an FMS and don't wet their pants and squeal 91.3 when the glass goes dark. Fly the airplane. If you can't do that without the help of a computer quit before you hurt someone. The FMS and flight director are good tools that are there to ease the workload and therefore free up your attention and mental capacity for other tasks, they are not there to replace nonexistent basic airmanship skills (or to give you more time to listen to your iPod kids). Stick and rudder. Basic navigation. Systems knowledge. If you don't know it, you're no better than a monkey with a crate of bananas. At least the monkey has a good excuse for being less than professional.

We are seeing the predicted result of the Nintendo Generation. Pathetic.

 

[EOpilot]

Well, I, for one, quit. I loved flying for Express One, but after they went out of business I got hired by ACA. I left right before they announced Indy Air, but I could already read the writing on the wall. My schedule and prospects were getting worse and I could get better pay doing something close to home. (I'm now fixing cable for Comcast; it sucks but I'm home every night and a lot of the day!)

I have one question.

What are pilots doing to improve any of the mentioned issues throughout this board? I read thread after thread of bitches and complaints but I rarely see anyone with a solution to any of the problems the regionals have.

It's just a question. Don't rip my head off and sh!t down my neck for asking.

Pay, job security, and the long-term health of any airline business would be best served in the long run by establishing a pilot guild. Pay would be determined by equipment flown and date of entry into the guild, not by your seniority in your current company. There would be some equity in payrolls, upstarts would not have such crippling effect on established carriers, pilots would be able to switch carriers without such a devastating loss of pay, we wouldn't have a race to the bottom when times get rough, and we might even see the return of traditional pensions.

The problem comes in getting this thing started. Legacy airlines would be afraid of increases in training costs (high initial turnover due to pay portability), low fare carriers would see payroll increases, regionals would be less cost-effective, some senior pilots would probably see a pay decrease (not so much anymore after all the recent concessions), ALPA would fight it to the death to hold on to their business, and contract negotiations would take years to hammer out the complexities of covering all pilots under one blanket.

Barring government intervention, I don't see this happening. I wish it would, though.

 

[Clyde]

Pay, job security, and the long-term health of any airline business would be best served in the long run by establishing a pilot guild. Pay would be determined by equipment flown and date of entry into the guild, not by your seniority in your current company. There would be some equity in payrolls, upstarts would not have such crippling effect on established carriers, pilots would be able to switch carriers without such a devastating loss of pay, we wouldn't have a race to the bottom when times get rough, and we might even see the return of traditional pensions.

The problem comes in getting this thing started. Legacy airlines would be afraid of increases in training costs (high initial turnover due to pay portability), low fare carriers would see payroll increases, regionals would be less cost-effective, some senior pilots would probably see a pay decrease (not so much anymore after all the recent concessions), ALPA would fight it to the death to hold on to their business, and contract negotiations would take years to hammer out the complexities of covering all pilots under one blanket.

Barring government intervention, I don't see this happening. I wish it would, though.

I too don't ever see this happening, and I am very glad it won't either. People tend to bring up this "fantasy union" when times are bad. How about when times are good?

It is true that one cannot leave one airline for another and take their current seniority and pay with them. But, everybody knows that when they sign up for this job, so one must be able to accept and live with those consequences should they become reality.

Here is another point: have you ever witnessed how some on this board get upset and jealous when someone else gets a job that they "should have had"? Somebody gets upset because a guy with lower time "stole" a job from someone with more time and more applications/updates on file?

Now imagine the strife and jealousy if this fantasy "national pilot union" or guild or whatever people call it actually existed and people started "stealing" other people's jobs. It would be insane.

Here is what needs to happen. People need to stop coming out of these aviation universities with the attitude of "oh, I'll fly these airplanes for any price. Jets are cool!" And I'm referring to many various flying jobs out there, not any one group in particular.

Look at ERAU and their CAPT program. People are willing to waste (yes, I did say waste) tons of money on that program with hopes and dreams of flying for someone like a start-up bottom-feeding cargo airline with poor pay and poor QOL.

It was one thing to pay your dues for a short time and move on. But, those days are over and many of those places are now becoming career moves with the same poor pay and working conditions. As long as there are people out there willing to do that work for almost next to nothing and also have no problem spending a month at a time flying all over the world with basically no work rules, things will not get better any time soon.

 

[EOpilot]

People tend to bring up this "fantasy union" when times are bad. How about when times are good?

People are short-sighted. When times are good, people want it all, and they want it now. They certainly aren't as concerned about the future of the industry as they are about getting what's theirs.

It is true that one cannot leave one airline for another and take their current seniority and pay with them. But, everybody knows that when they sign up for this job, so one must be able to accept and live with those consequences should they become reality.

And when they get furloughed, their career is in shambles. Wouldn't lessening the consequences be better than just having to deal with them?

Here is another point: have you ever witnessed how some on this board get upset and jealous when someone else gets a job that they "should have had"? Somebody gets upset because a guy with lower time "stole" a job from someone with more time and more applications/updates on file?

Now imagine the strife and jealousy if this fantasy "national pilot union" or guild or whatever people call it actually existed and people started "stealing" other people's jobs. It would be insane.

I'm not sure what you mean. How would this new representation allow people to 'steal' others jobs? Remember, I'm talking about pay protection. Seniority would still exist at each carrier to determine schedules and equipment.

Here is what needs to happen. People need to stop coming out of these aviation universities with the attitude of "oh, I'll fly these airplanes for any price. Jets are cool!" .... As long as there are people out there willing to do that work for almost next to nothing and also have no problem spending a month at a time flying all over the world with basically no work rules, things will not get better any time soon.

And you think that of these two scenarios, this one is more likely to be remedied? As long as there exists more pilots than jobs, you will always find the ones with the lowest standards driving the industry down. Wishing people wouldn't do what they do is not fixing anything. A major change is needed to save this career from sub-mediocrity. The fact that no one will do anything about it just shows that people would rather wait for better times and grab the money when the cycle starts over than improve the profession as a whole.

 

[COOPERVANE]

I just see a cycle starting: From ASA's president


"we must operate within a specific cost framework and meet very specific, challenging operational targets. These Delta-imposed cost limits are non-negotiable, and we have a lot of work ahead of us to ensure we meet these targets. Failing to reach these specific goals could lead to the loss of our agreement with Delta. Reaching this goal will not be easy because there are areas of our operation where pilot costs have been allowed to grow beyond the industry average."

really? what areas specifically? pay? vacation?

So to be competetive, we must accept whatever MGMT thinks we are worth?

Next year, after our competitors have lowered their "cost structures" even more, will we get another "we must cut your salary to remain competetive" letters? The year after that?

When does it stop? When we all say ENOUGH!! We have to stick together and stop falling for whipsaw tactics!!

Sorry, just venting.​

 

[Clyde]

People are short-sighted. When times are good, people want it all, and they want it now. They certainly aren't as concerned about the future of the industry as they are about getting what's theirs.



And when they get furloughed, their career is in shambles. Wouldn't lessening the consequences be better than just having to deal with them?



I'm not sure what you mean. How would this new representation allow people to 'steal' others jobs? Remember, I'm talking about pay protection. Seniority would still exist at each carrier to determine schedules and equipment.



And you think that of these two scenarios, this one is more likely to be remedied? As long as there exists more pilots than jobs, you will always find the ones with the lowest standards driving the industry down. Wishing people wouldn't do what they do is not fixing anything. A major change is needed to save this career from sub-mediocrity. The fact that no one will do anything about it just shows that people would rather wait for better times and grab the money when the cycle starts over than improve the profession as a whole.

EOpilot,

I wondering if we are talking about the same thing. What I was referring to was to a discussion brought up many times in the past by some on this board with regards to a national seniority list. Everyone would have a predetermined date of hire and would be able to cut in and out of airline seniority lists. That is the assumption I am making as I respond here. If I am way off topic, I do apologize in advance.

People are short-sighted. When times are good, people want it all, and they want it now. They certainly aren't as concerned about the future of the industry as they are about getting what's theirs.

I won't argue with you here. However, I would also comment that there is also a lack of good planning during these times as well. When times are good, many forget just how cyclical this business can be.

And when they get furloughed, their career is in shambles. Wouldn't lessening the consequences be better than just having to deal with them?

I don't think the consequences would be any less. What would be more prudent is for people to take proactive action and plan for the possibility that their airline career may end up in shambles someday.

In other words, treating the problem and not just the symptoms. First, be financially responsible. i.e., save more than you spend, carry little or no debt, and plan for retirement. Also, have a plan B by having another marketable skill and/or job/business lined up. The problem isn't an airline issue, it is a job issue. If one moves from airline X to airline Y, that job may last a week or several years.

I'm not sure what you mean. How would this new representation allow people to 'steal' others jobs? Remember, I'm talking about pay protection. Seniority would still exist at each carrier to determine schedules and equipment.

Again, assuming we are on the same sheet of music. Say you have two airlines. One is good, and one is failing. Enough people leave the failing airline for the good airline, and eventually some people are going to be furloughed from the seniority list. Others might be forced from the left seat to the right seat.

And you think that of these two scenarios, this one is more likely to be remedied? As long as there exists more pilots than jobs, you will always find the ones with the lowest standards driving the industry down.

No, unfortunately I don't see it going away anytime soon. I was just pointing out that this is a major issue in pilot employment.

The fact that no one will do anything about it just shows that people would rather wait for better times and grab the money when the cycle starts over than improve the profession as a whole.

A major issue is that the condition of the industry is subjective depending on who you talk to. For those of us who remember what it was like 10 years ago, the industry is far from being in better times. To a 500 hour pilot making $100/week flying skydivers, times seem very good to him/her when that person is offered a 121 jet job at $17K/yr.

I'm not saying to forget our roots or to not pay our dues, but the attitude of "well, I'm just happy to be here flying airplanes for whatever they will pay me" has to stop. Pilots must be proactive in raising the bar and, as a whole, refusing to be treated like slave labor. Until that happens, the bar isn't going up anytime soon.

 

[EOpilot]

Wow, I think we agree WAY more than we disagree on this issue.

For the record, I wasn't referring to the National Seniority List solution. Like you said, all that would do is punish those who work for a well run airline.

My rough solution is to take pay and retirement out of the equation. Your pay would be dependant on how many years you have been flying in the guild and what seat and equipment you are flying.

Your schedule, equipment, seat, and furlough order would still be controlled by your company seniority.

Now, say you've worked for 10 years at airline X and it goes belly-up. Instead of starting at zero at a new company, you would start at 10 year pay. However, while you were a captain flying A320s before, now you are an FO flying an MD80. Your pay <i>will</i> decrease and you won't be able to hold a line for a while, but at least you won't lose your retirement and your pay will be comparable to what you were making before when you can upgrade.

The big question is hiring. How to keep a company from hiring less seasoned pilots to save on payroll, and the only answer I can think of is to require that hiring be done out of a communal pool. Longest service gets picked first. And entry into the guild can only be accomplished when the pool is empty, or everybody bypasses.

Again, I don't think this will ever happen, and if it did, it would require government intervention to get it started. A better time for it would have been at the moment of deregulation, but that time is past. I just think that the cyclical pattern of the industry is irrelevant to the decline of the profession. Pilot jobs are thin, and there are more pilots out there than ever. Any startup can decimate the industry without a care in the world since after their bankruptcy the officers still go home with fat checking accounts.

I'm just using my current point-of-view as an outsider to find a way to make your fallback job less of a necessity. Trust me, sometimes the fallback really sucks.

 

[BLing]

I think that it is our nature as pilots and airline employees to b!tch. I remember my days working for two different regionals (furloughed by the first) as a Ramp/Gate agent, I was always complaining, and wanting to quit. I never could bring my self to quit for some reason. I worked my a$$ off for 3 years showing up at 0430 or staying past midnight and almost never having a weekend off. I finally quit my job in september to relocate for a CFI job, it was one of the saddest days of my life. To make a long story short, this industry is in our blood and we all truly love it and could not work anywhere else despite all the BS!

 

[Cokie907]

Ok....my 2 cents, whiskey tango foxtrot....

I'm just another RJ pilot, been at PCL for 5 years and have hated almost every minute of it. Of course, I love to fly (own a Weedhopper ultralight) and I have some great times in the cockpit with fellow pilots. But this doesn't make up for being single with no kids at 39 and feeling disconnected from my community here in East Tennessee.

In July, I experienced a bulging disc in my lumbar vertebrae which eventually herniated. Make a long story short, I've been out of the cockpit for 4 months after epidural injections, surgery and physical therapy.

I thought these 4 months were to recuperate my back but what I realized is that my mind was what ended up healing the most! I realized that I've been missing out on life by being on the road 18 days a month and after this back injury, I truly value each year of good health.

I also realized that I do not miss flying. When I quit flying from a night freight job in 1996, it tore me apart but not this time. Not sure why, perhaps it is because now I've flown every kind of aviation venue in every altitude regime. There's nothing left to check off anywhere on the "to do list".

This injury has put me in the hole financially after 4 months of no income and plenty of medical bills. After I square up my finances and find a suitable job in the real world, my resignation from flying is going in. Its a miserable industry and without partial re-regulation, it will only get worse.