If everyone hates their airline why not quit

[Beechnut]

Ya, this place is therapy and entertainment. I hear I'm better about the bitching than many from Denver. I try not to do it at work too much, just on these boards. It's no fun sitting next to a whiner for 4 days.

S.

 

[pipejockey]

ok here is a little history im 35 did 9 years infantry US army, first flight july 2001. start training at TSA IN feb

OI812, I mean no offense, but I have to ask you a question. It appears your first flight was at 31 years of age, and at 35 you will start at TSA. You will spend 3 to 5 years before upgrading, many variables involved in that, so you might be 40 before becoming captain. Then you spend 2 years getting the minimum PIC time needed to get to an airline where you can make some semblance of a living...maybe!! Most people who have the competitive qualifications will NOT be hired at the majors. There are far too few jobs at the majors now for everyone at the regionals who have the competitive mins. Unlike 10 years ago when the regionals were maybe 10% of airline capacity, now they are maybe 30-40 and I feel will be 50% soon with all the 70 seaters and 100 seaters going to the regionals.

OK OK, my question is WHY!!!!! You will most likely be hard pressed to break 35K a year until you're 40, then a whopping 60 to 65 K as a captain where you will most likely be for the rest of your career. Again no offense, but I feel it's the drive from people like yourself who so badly want to fly a jet you will do so for so little it makes the career unviable for people like me.

Look, I was like you. I would give anything to be a pilot. Well it aint all that. You are treated like crap!! You are somebody to fill a seat, no more no less. Your employer does not care who fills the seat as long as it is filled and they will use every excuse in the book to keep you from earning a fair wage and flying a fair schedule. They will say look, we have thousands of wannabe's who will take your job for a fraction of what we pay you, so why should we give you a raise or more time off? They will pull out a resume to show you...oh look, it is from OI812, look, look, he will do your job for less, he is a good man!! And management will proceed to tell you to suck it up!! You get my point?

Oh and I hope you enjoy working for Hulia, he is a fine man. A scholar and a gentleman!

 

[DirkkDiggler]

Ya, this place is therapy and entertainment. I hear I'm better about the bitching than many from Denver. I try not to do it at work too much, just on these boards. It's no fun sitting next to a whiner for 4 days.

S.

Nut,

Props to keeping it out of the cockpit. This board is a lot of fun. Especially when you get to piss so many people off all the time. Maybe we'll get to fly together sometime. Although we dissagree on many things (at least as posted here) I'm sure we'd have fun over a few beers. Keeping the cockpit fun though is important and I for one thank you for your attitude in this respect.

 

[OI812]

What the F* do I care what you did in the Army? If we're going to compare apples to oranges, let me tell you about my first 9 months in the womb without even a G**dang I-pod.

You sound like one of those guys that will take it in the A** for the company because you'll think "we'll jeez, at least I'm not getting shot at."

You have not spent ONE DAY on the line at an airline yet. You have NO idea what you are talking about.

S.

its sad you really have no idea what the world is like what are ya some 25 year old kid mom dad gave ya everything never really worked

i had a few of you in my squad fun times

 

[OI812]

OI812, I mean no offense, but I have to ask you a question. It appears your first flight was at 31 years of age, and at 35 you will start at TSA. You will spend 3 to 5 years before upgrading, many variables involved in that, so you might be 40 before becoming captain. Then you spend 2 years getting the minimum PIC time needed to get to an airline where you can make some semblance of a living...maybe!! Most people who have the competitive qualifications will NOT be hired at the majors. There are far too few jobs at the majors now for everyone at the regionals who have the competitive mins. Unlike 10 years ago when the regionals were maybe 10% of airline capacity, now they are maybe 30-40 and I feel will be 50% soon with all the 70 seaters and 100 seaters going to the regionals.

OK OK, my question is WHY!!!!! You will most likely be hard pressed to break 35K a year until you're 40, then a whopping 60 to 65 K as a captain where you will most likely be for the rest of your career. Again no offense, but I feel it's the drive from people like yourself who so badly want to fly a jet you will do so for so little it makes the career unviable for people like me.

Look, I was like you. I would give anything to be a pilot. Well it aint all that. You are treated like crap!! You are somebody to fill a seat, no more no less. Your employer does not care who fills the seat as long as it is filled and they will use every excuse in the book to keep you from earning a fair wage and flying a fair schedule. They will say look, we have thousands of wannabe's who will take your job for a fraction of what we pay you, so why should we give you a raise or more time off? They will pull out a resume to show you...oh look, it is from OI812, look, look, he will do your job for less, he is a good man!! And management will proceed to tell you to suck it up!! You get my point?

Oh and I hope you enjoy working for Hulia, he is a fine man. A scholar and a gentleman!

I agree im lucky to make anything by 40 but i like what i do that adds up

and no offense taken but why should me doing what i like effect you im not willing to work for nothing and get screwed my original questions was if ya dont like it why do ya do it

 

[Beechnut]

its sad you really have no idea what the world is like what are ya some 25 year old kid mom dad gave ya everything never really worked

i had a few of you in my squad fun times

Yes, yes I am. What else you do you have? Flown a trip yet? No?

How you gonna feed a family on that first year TSA pay?

It's ON!

S!

 

[DirkkDiggler]

OI812,

These guys just have fun pissing on people so ignore them. I for one thank you for serving our great country before persuing the career so many of us were fortunate (or unfortunate if you want to look at it from pipejockey's point of view) to begin right after college or high school. I was in the Air Force and I can tell you that everyone's idea of a bad day is relative to the life they've had. You will think this is the easiest cake walk of a job ever after the Army (and no doubt war). The real reason these guys who b!tch so much don't leave is because they enjoy it too much. Though they'll never admit it to you or anyone else!

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Obviously, you do not know that management hates pilots. They make you know this fact day in and day out. Your looking from the outside in at something you don't truely understand; It's not your fault. Being an airline pilot is about coporate politics, gambling with your career, avoiding furloughs, dealing with managemnet, living in poverty, the list goes on and on. Flying is probably the smallest part of this career, and thats a lot to deal with in itself. I was once like you, and never understood why people being paid to fly would complain. However, if we could go to work and just do our jobs and get paid a decent wage that we deserve, there would be a lot less complaining.

So come on in new regional pilot, we have a shiny new jet for you to fly. The last guy was making $150000 to fly that many people, but I heard you'll take $17000, thank you. Oh don't forget to show your uniform to all the girls, make sure you tell them you make what the last guy made, $17000 is a little embarassing. You don't want to tell them the truth, that you make less than a Mcdonalds worker for flying an airplane, and you can only see them a few times a week. But look you have so much to offer, you are a pilot, that must count for something.

 

[pipejockey]

Oh and yes, thank you for you service OI812, sincerely.

Now you say you like what you do, get back to me in a few years. And Dirkk, you are right I do enjoy flying a 727 around the sky. Few can experience it, but I am seeing that in the post 9-11 era I will not be able to make a living in this profession. Taking care of my family and financial obligations are not being met. There was a future at the majors when I got started in this in the late 90's. It is now all gone! Unless you want to spend your career at the regionals, there is no future at the majors. I would venture to guess that only 10% of pilots who seek the majors will actually be hired there. And I cannot survive at regional pay scales.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

its sad you really have no idea what the world is like what are ya some 25 year old kid mom dad gave ya everything never really worked

i had a few of you in my squad fun times

How many sentences is that? :erm:

 

[SkyBoy1981]

BTW Chief, this isn't your squad and some of those 25 year olds are going to be your Captains. Better get used to it bud.

 

[DirkkDiggler]

I don't know what you're talking about. I go to work, fly, and then come home. I NEVER talk to management, unless I need a new parking pass. If you're dealing with management and getting frustrated, you're doing that to yourself. Nobody who comes into this career with their eyes open struggles with the stress you described. I'm not here to change my company. I'm here to fly, fill out my logbook, and move on, and I'm damned sure I'm going to enjoy it while I'm here. The people who get pissy are the ones who think they are going to change things within their company. They think they deserve more money. (If you think you deserve more and you're still working there, isn't that kinda like whoring yourself out?) They think they deserve better schedules. (Outside changing the contract, this one's not going to change unless it saves the company money) It's kinda like Greenpeace being up in arms over the environment even though it does no good. They get all bent outta shape over something that's out of their control and then they get ulcers and high blood pressure while the rest of us just cruise and enjoy our lives as much as we can given the choices we have in front of us. If you don't like your airline, you would be doing yourself and your family a great service by finding a better job.

 

[DirkkDiggler]

Oh and yes, thank you for you service OI812, sincerely.

Now you say you like what you do, get back to me in a few years. And Dirkk, you are right I do enjoy flying a 727 around the sky. Few can experience it, but I am seeing that in the post 9-11 era I will not be able to make a living in this profession. Taking care of my family and financial obligations are not being met. There was a future at the majors when I got started in this in the late 90's. It is now all gone! Unless you want to spend your career at the regionals, there is no future at the majors. I would venture to guess that only 10% of pilots who seek the majors will actually be hired there. And I cannot survive at regional pay scales.

Well then the choice for you is fairly obvious isn't it? There's no fighting economics and the free hand of capitalism. Unfortunately we are all having to adapt to our futures. That's part of the business. Always has been.

 

[sbn340mech]

So was anyone going to answer the original question, or are you all perfectly happy with your jobs. (dosen't really sound like though)

 

[jetfo]

first off u choose to commute i doubt anyone is forced. i will bet everything i have that your company never said you cant move to your city domicile. so dont tell me they force you to commute

and second i was just giving an example of a tough schedule. what you have is nothing

I agree with some of the other posts, you have no idea what you are talking about, yet. Give it some time.

First, you'll be all excited about your new job as an "airline pilot", how cool is that.

You'll love to fly turbine or jet aircraft to all of these new places.

And, how cool is it to jumpseat on those big airliners and talk to those great experienced pilots at the "majors."

And, those travel benefits.

Soon, you'll be able to hold a line and you'll be living the dream.

A dream that means that you will be spending sometimes 20+ nights away from home a month and your family.

That in exchange for the equivalent of minimum wage or less, when you consider that you'll be at work 3.5 hours for every hour you fly, not counting rest periods, and 14+ hour days on average.

Not even counting your expenses, which your per diem will never cover unless you brown bag it, difficult if not impossible, and you don't commute.

Go enjoy that burger and a coke for $10 at the terminal.

During your time off you'll be recovering from your trips and I doubt that you'll ever travel anywhere with your benefits. You won't have the time anyway, you'll just be glad you're home.

Until now you will have believed all of the cool aid that management fed you at the beginning, including more airplanes and that short upgrade.

Then, perhaps in six month or maybe a year later reality sets in and you'll become disappointed and frustrated.

Another year later, if you have stuck with it that long, you will find that you'll be as disillusioned as the rest of us.

Some of it is inevitable human nature, you never appreciate what you have and you always want more and better.

But, some of it are the realities of this lifestyle and the associated pitfalls that we all have to deal with daily.

I believe most of us would agree that the flying part is great, it's just all of the other BS that goes along with it that we hate.

Best of luck at TSA in any case and Merry Christmas.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

I don't know what you're talking about. I go to work, fly, and then come home. I NEVER talk to management, unless I need a new parking pass. If you're dealing with management and getting frustrated, you're doing that to yourself. Nobody who comes into this career with their eyes open struggles with the stress you described. I'm not here to change my company. I'm here to fly, fill out my logbook, and move on, and I'm danged sure I'm going to enjoy it while I'm here. The people who get pissy are the ones who think they are going to change things within their company. They think they deserve more money. (If you think you deserve more and you're still working there, isn't that kinda like whoring yourself out?) They think they deserve better schedules. (Outside changing the contract, this one's not going to change unless it saves the company money) It's kinda like Greenpeace being up in arms over the environment even though it does no good. They get all bent outta shape over something that's out of their control and then they get ulcers and high blood pressure while the rest of us just cruise and enjoy our lives as much as we can given the choices we have in front of us. If you don't like your airline, you would be doing yourself and your family a great service by finding a better job.

Yes, I'm one of the few that are still in the fight to protect the profession. I think you need to realize that the bottom is coming for you, even if you have a better job. My current company is a legacy carrier, which used to top out at about $300,000 a year and have amazing QOL. When you get that better job, the one I already have, you will again see you moved up to the same exact thing you left. But this time it gets even worse, the regional stress is a far cry away from the stress at the majors. Trust me, it's easier to go from $23,000 a year to $17,000 a year, then going from $150,000 to $45,000(NewCo rate). Sure go to a carrier like SWA or JetBlue, wait until NWA gets newco flying 100 seat jets at regional rates. SWA can not compete against this new carrier model, I've seen the numbers, newco can offer 75% lower fares and turn a profit. SWA and JetBlue, get ready for your $100,000 pay cut.

 

[pipejockey]

Well then the choice for you is fairly obvious isn't it? There's no fighting economics and the free hand of capitalism. Unfortunately we are all having to adapt to our futures. That's part of the business. Always has been.

Well you can't blame me for being angered by the fact that the career I have chosen is being flushed away and being replaced with a shell of what it once was. I spent my younger years and much money on something that has disappeared after getting too deep into it. I now don't have the finances to get an education in another field, not to mention I am well into my 30s now.

But you are right, the choice is obvious, but I can no longer whore myself out to companies that could not give a rats ass about me. And I fully admit, I am whoring my self out by accepting the working conditions I have.

 

[DirkkDiggler]

Don't get me wrong, I wish future wages in this industry were as high now as they've ever been. I'd be a fool to want to do the same job for less money if I had a choice. The problem is we don't have a choice. Free market economics are what is dictating pay and ticket prices. I for one am a fan of free market capitalism. I think it's one of the things that makes this country great. Right now we're dealing with the problems of deregulation. Things are finally coming to a head and before too long, all the airlines will be playing on the same playing field once again. Southwest has had the advantage for a long time and I hope parity will be here soon. Once that happens, this industry will become more stable again and this time it will be a more lasting stability than in the past. There's nothing we can do about it, and I'm against unions interupting the free market. Salaries and ticket prices will reach an equilibrium with fuel prices and pilot supply and things will get better. In the meantime try not to be so negative about things that are out of your control. You'll live longer.

 

[shelton]

I am going to give some attempt to settle all this. First, one cannot expect to come on this board with such a tone and inherent lack of respect and get any kind of answer worth anything. To compare wartime military schedules to the schedule of an airline is, as early mentioned, comparing apples to oranges or more accurately apples to dogs. There is absolutely no need to have a pissing contest over who works harder or who has worked a day in their life or not. If one wants the real answer to his question he is better suited to come at it with more respect.
[FONT=&quot]Here is the reason guys/girls do not leave the airline industry(at least from my eyes) despite all the complaining that seems to happen and some other random thoughts I have on the industry.
1) Most pilots have put in huge investments of time and money and do not want to walk away from all that. It is kind of like the beaten wife who will not leave her husband.
2) We have hope that the industry at some point in the future will turn around in the pilots favor. In that, once again there will be a shortage of pilots instead of the huge surplus.
3) Although I do believe in a free market it occurs to me that the market, when dealing with the airline industry, is artificially off set. I think it may be because of this that first year FOs are paid 19,000 a year and for the same reason why airlines will not raise ticket prices. Please note that this is just a theory of mine and I have no research to back it.
4) As far as commuting goes. It is, of course, the choice of the pilot to commute or not. However, it can be very difficult to move a family to a different location giving consideration to: children, schools, thoughts of the spouse, moving on such low pay and understanding that being furloughed is a real issue, the list goes on. That being said it seems that a little compassion to individual circumstances could go a long way.
5) Schedules. I do not know about the schedules at other airlines, but the lines at mine have gone straight down hill. Pilots accept the fact that they will be gone from their families for days, but then they want days to be at home. I grew up where a solid work ethic was a requirement to be a man, but even more so a husband has a responsibility to his family. This causes a lot of the bitching because there is a struggle between providing financially for the family, the love of flying(which will only last so long), and actually being home to be a part of that family.

I say all that to say two things: First I hope that I have answered questions about why pilots stay at their job even if all they do is complain. Secondly, coming across as a hard ass/straight shooter without considering the thoughts and situations of others, although ones right, hardly makes him seem thoughtful or intelligent, but instead gives the impression of being immature and unprofessional.
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[DetoXJ]

If any of thes large regionals out there, (Mesa, XJT, XJ, 9E, Eagle, Comair, Colgan, ASA ect.) offered unpaid internships for newhire FO's there would be people banging down the door to get one. Unpaid for the 1st year and then you get a guaranteed interview to be placed at the bottom of the seniority list with zero longivity. Sad but true, tons of UND and ERAU 250 hour wonders would be lined up around the block to sign up. The only thing that will change regional pay is if new hires would stop taking the job for current wages.