If everyone hates their airline why not quit

[SkyBoy1981]

BTW Chief, this isn't your squad and some of those 25 year olds are going to be your Captains. Better get used to it bud.

 

[DirkkDiggler]

I don't know what you're talking about. I go to work, fly, and then come home. I NEVER talk to management, unless I need a new parking pass. If you're dealing with management and getting frustrated, you're doing that to yourself. Nobody who comes into this career with their eyes open struggles with the stress you described. I'm not here to change my company. I'm here to fly, fill out my logbook, and move on, and I'm damned sure I'm going to enjoy it while I'm here. The people who get pissy are the ones who think they are going to change things within their company. They think they deserve more money. (If you think you deserve more and you're still working there, isn't that kinda like whoring yourself out?) They think they deserve better schedules. (Outside changing the contract, this one's not going to change unless it saves the company money) It's kinda like Greenpeace being up in arms over the environment even though it does no good. They get all bent outta shape over something that's out of their control and then they get ulcers and high blood pressure while the rest of us just cruise and enjoy our lives as much as we can given the choices we have in front of us. If you don't like your airline, you would be doing yourself and your family a great service by finding a better job.

 

[DirkkDiggler]

Oh and yes, thank you for you service OI812, sincerely.

Now you say you like what you do, get back to me in a few years. And Dirkk, you are right I do enjoy flying a 727 around the sky. Few can experience it, but I am seeing that in the post 9-11 era I will not be able to make a living in this profession. Taking care of my family and financial obligations are not being met. There was a future at the majors when I got started in this in the late 90's. It is now all gone! Unless you want to spend your career at the regionals, there is no future at the majors. I would venture to guess that only 10% of pilots who seek the majors will actually be hired there. And I cannot survive at regional pay scales.

Well then the choice for you is fairly obvious isn't it? There's no fighting economics and the free hand of capitalism. Unfortunately we are all having to adapt to our futures. That's part of the business. Always has been.

 

[sbn340mech]

So was anyone going to answer the original question, or are you all perfectly happy with your jobs. (dosen't really sound like though)

 

[jetfo]

first off u choose to commute i doubt anyone is forced. i will bet everything i have that your company never said you cant move to your city domicile. so dont tell me they force you to commute

and second i was just giving an example of a tough schedule. what you have is nothing

I agree with some of the other posts, you have no idea what you are talking about, yet. Give it some time.

First, you'll be all excited about your new job as an "airline pilot", how cool is that.

You'll love to fly turbine or jet aircraft to all of these new places.

And, how cool is it to jumpseat on those big airliners and talk to those great experienced pilots at the "majors."

And, those travel benefits.

Soon, you'll be able to hold a line and you'll be living the dream.

A dream that means that you will be spending sometimes 20+ nights away from home a month and your family.

That in exchange for the equivalent of minimum wage or less, when you consider that you'll be at work 3.5 hours for every hour you fly, not counting rest periods, and 14+ hour days on average.

Not even counting your expenses, which your per diem will never cover unless you brown bag it, difficult if not impossible, and you don't commute.

Go enjoy that burger and a coke for $10 at the terminal.

During your time off you'll be recovering from your trips and I doubt that you'll ever travel anywhere with your benefits. You won't have the time anyway, you'll just be glad you're home.

Until now you will have believed all of the cool aid that management fed you at the beginning, including more airplanes and that short upgrade.

Then, perhaps in six month or maybe a year later reality sets in and you'll become disappointed and frustrated.

Another year later, if you have stuck with it that long, you will find that you'll be as disillusioned as the rest of us.

Some of it is inevitable human nature, you never appreciate what you have and you always want more and better.

But, some of it are the realities of this lifestyle and the associated pitfalls that we all have to deal with daily.

I believe most of us would agree that the flying part is great, it's just all of the other BS that goes along with it that we hate.

Best of luck at TSA in any case and Merry Christmas.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

I don't know what you're talking about. I go to work, fly, and then come home. I NEVER talk to management, unless I need a new parking pass. If you're dealing with management and getting frustrated, you're doing that to yourself. Nobody who comes into this career with their eyes open struggles with the stress you described. I'm not here to change my company. I'm here to fly, fill out my logbook, and move on, and I'm danged sure I'm going to enjoy it while I'm here. The people who get pissy are the ones who think they are going to change things within their company. They think they deserve more money. (If you think you deserve more and you're still working there, isn't that kinda like whoring yourself out?) They think they deserve better schedules. (Outside changing the contract, this one's not going to change unless it saves the company money) It's kinda like Greenpeace being up in arms over the environment even though it does no good. They get all bent outta shape over something that's out of their control and then they get ulcers and high blood pressure while the rest of us just cruise and enjoy our lives as much as we can given the choices we have in front of us. If you don't like your airline, you would be doing yourself and your family a great service by finding a better job.

Yes, I'm one of the few that are still in the fight to protect the profession. I think you need to realize that the bottom is coming for you, even if you have a better job. My current company is a legacy carrier, which used to top out at about $300,000 a year and have amazing QOL. When you get that better job, the one I already have, you will again see you moved up to the same exact thing you left. But this time it gets even worse, the regional stress is a far cry away from the stress at the majors. Trust me, it's easier to go from $23,000 a year to $17,000 a year, then going from $150,000 to $45,000(NewCo rate). Sure go to a carrier like SWA or JetBlue, wait until NWA gets newco flying 100 seat jets at regional rates. SWA can not compete against this new carrier model, I've seen the numbers, newco can offer 75% lower fares and turn a profit. SWA and JetBlue, get ready for your $100,000 pay cut.

 

[pipejockey]

Well then the choice for you is fairly obvious isn't it? There's no fighting economics and the free hand of capitalism. Unfortunately we are all having to adapt to our futures. That's part of the business. Always has been.

Well you can't blame me for being angered by the fact that the career I have chosen is being flushed away and being replaced with a shell of what it once was. I spent my younger years and much money on something that has disappeared after getting too deep into it. I now don't have the finances to get an education in another field, not to mention I am well into my 30s now.

But you are right, the choice is obvious, but I can no longer whore myself out to companies that could not give a rats ass about me. And I fully admit, I am whoring my self out by accepting the working conditions I have.

 

[DirkkDiggler]

Don't get me wrong, I wish future wages in this industry were as high now as they've ever been. I'd be a fool to want to do the same job for less money if I had a choice. The problem is we don't have a choice. Free market economics are what is dictating pay and ticket prices. I for one am a fan of free market capitalism. I think it's one of the things that makes this country great. Right now we're dealing with the problems of deregulation. Things are finally coming to a head and before too long, all the airlines will be playing on the same playing field once again. Southwest has had the advantage for a long time and I hope parity will be here soon. Once that happens, this industry will become more stable again and this time it will be a more lasting stability than in the past. There's nothing we can do about it, and I'm against unions interupting the free market. Salaries and ticket prices will reach an equilibrium with fuel prices and pilot supply and things will get better. In the meantime try not to be so negative about things that are out of your control. You'll live longer.

 

[shelton]

I am going to give some attempt to settle all this. First, one cannot expect to come on this board with such a tone and inherent lack of respect and get any kind of answer worth anything. To compare wartime military schedules to the schedule of an airline is, as early mentioned, comparing apples to oranges or more accurately apples to dogs. There is absolutely no need to have a pissing contest over who works harder or who has worked a day in their life or not. If one wants the real answer to his question he is better suited to come at it with more respect.
[FONT=&quot]Here is the reason guys/girls do not leave the airline industry(at least from my eyes) despite all the complaining that seems to happen and some other random thoughts I have on the industry.
1) Most pilots have put in huge investments of time and money and do not want to walk away from all that. It is kind of like the beaten wife who will not leave her husband.
2) We have hope that the industry at some point in the future will turn around in the pilots favor. In that, once again there will be a shortage of pilots instead of the huge surplus.
3) Although I do believe in a free market it occurs to me that the market, when dealing with the airline industry, is artificially off set. I think it may be because of this that first year FOs are paid 19,000 a year and for the same reason why airlines will not raise ticket prices. Please note that this is just a theory of mine and I have no research to back it.
4) As far as commuting goes. It is, of course, the choice of the pilot to commute or not. However, it can be very difficult to move a family to a different location giving consideration to: children, schools, thoughts of the spouse, moving on such low pay and understanding that being furloughed is a real issue, the list goes on. That being said it seems that a little compassion to individual circumstances could go a long way.
5) Schedules. I do not know about the schedules at other airlines, but the lines at mine have gone straight down hill. Pilots accept the fact that they will be gone from their families for days, but then they want days to be at home. I grew up where a solid work ethic was a requirement to be a man, but even more so a husband has a responsibility to his family. This causes a lot of the bitching because there is a struggle between providing financially for the family, the love of flying(which will only last so long), and actually being home to be a part of that family.

I say all that to say two things: First I hope that I have answered questions about why pilots stay at their job even if all they do is complain. Secondly, coming across as a hard ass/straight shooter without considering the thoughts and situations of others, although ones right, hardly makes him seem thoughtful or intelligent, but instead gives the impression of being immature and unprofessional.
[/FONT]

 

[DetoXJ]

If any of thes large regionals out there, (Mesa, XJT, XJ, 9E, Eagle, Comair, Colgan, ASA ect.) offered unpaid internships for newhire FO's there would be people banging down the door to get one. Unpaid for the 1st year and then you get a guaranteed interview to be placed at the bottom of the seniority list with zero longivity. Sad but true, tons of UND and ERAU 250 hour wonders would be lined up around the block to sign up. The only thing that will change regional pay is if new hires would stop taking the job for current wages.

 

[OI812]

ok ok i give up
this isnt exactly where i was going with this\

i just wanted to know why stay somewhere ya dont like

so i will wait and see for myself and after 6 months and i feel tha same as everyone else i will come pesonally say i was wrong and apoligize

 

[jetfo]

I doubt that anyone is looking forward to your apology. We just all hope that things will turn around in this industry and that quality of life and income will improve for all concerned.

 

[RichardRambone]

Absolutely true but how could we communicate that message to us young brats looking to fly? If the wages arent good enough, DONT TAKE THE JOB. We are all taking shatty jobs so we can move up to wherever but it sounds like moving up has become an oxymoron. I ferry planes and clean them and other office bs but I'd even have to take a pay cut to go to a regional. Give me break. What I fly isnt as important as if I can pay my bills. Its starts at the bottom and works its ugly way up. If we keep accepting things the way they are, there wont be changes, only downhill slides.

 

[jws717]

looking at the airlines from the outside is a very strange perspective, atlanta must look like an amusement park to you. All sorts of big jets rolling around. Ive been there myself, but after 6 months the jet boner goes away and it is just a job. A job that can be very exciting at times but more often very stressful. You must also realize that many pilots do not have direct information about what is happening at their airline, rumors are a way of life, many are real some are BS. And i am sure you complain about your job as a CFI to people as well.

 

[OI812]

looking at the airlines from the outside is a very strange perspective, atlanta must look like an amusement park to you. All sorts of big jets rolling around. Ive been there myself, but after 6 months the jet boner goes away and it is just a job. A job that can be very exciting at times but more often very stressful. You must also realize that many pilots do not have direct information about what is happening at their airline, rumors are a way of life, many are real some are BS. And i am sure you complain about your job as a CFI to people as well.

actually i really enjoy instructing and have seriously thought about staying at it, but there comes a time to move on.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

Why move on if its so great?

 

[OI812]

you know why

as an instructor you dont actually fly very often i want fly.
same reason most leave
but i am still staying on as a ground/sim instructor

 

[Dufus1]

It is funny how so many say "if only these 250 hour wonders would stop taking these low paying FO positions". Isn't that how we all got there? We all accepted one of those low paying FO positions. How soon we forget where we come from.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

It is funny how so many say "if only these 250 hour wonders would stop taking these low paying FO positions". Isn't that how we all got there? We all accepted one of those low paying FO positions. How soon we forget where we come from.

What the hell does this statement have to do with this thread? I haven't seen anyone say anything close to that in this thread at all.

 

[jetfo]

More and more pilots are leaving the airlines for corporate or other jobs. Heck, air traffic controllers make substantially more money than even most airline pilots. What's wrong with this picture?

Thousands of pilots are being produced by the pilot mills of ERAU, UND, DCA, FSI, etc. all being sold on getting an airline pilot job that will eventually pay them $100K+. They are being told the old story, and not the realities of today.

These wannabe pilots are putting themselves or their parents into $60K to $100K+ debt, just for the licenses needed to get an RJ job, without even a guarantee of that. That's not considering the cost of a degree at ERAU of UND. With a degree, probably at least $160K at ERAU.

When they get out, they find out the realities of an RJ job, that of being paid $20K to 30K for 5 to 7 years before upgrade. And then, the pay is not what it used to be even at Comair, after the concessions, maybe $60K a year.

This, along with the sacrifices associated with this occupation, is not being communicated to these prospective pilots. If they had the complete picture, many would chose other alternatives that yield greater rewards and less frustration and sacrifice.

The problem is that we all have a sickness that is called a love of flying. We drank the cool aid and now we are stuck. Many of us have pigeon holed ourselves into this career and once you have made the investment and commitment of time, it's difficult to get out.

What alternative jobs are you going to be able to obtain once you have dedicated years, or decades to a flying career? What are you going to be able to put on a resume that is relevant to an employer outside of aviation?

You end up being stuck, getting just enough money to keep on doing the same thing because you cannot replace even the marginal income.

I met A US Airways pilot commuting home the other day. He told me it was probably his last flight. He had been with Airways for over twenty years, lost most of his retirement, downgraded to reserve FO in DCA at about $60K a year.

He was fed up, was going to call in sick for the rest of December and take a three year leave after that, with no intention of returning. He was smart enough to build up a sideline business that was now able to supply enough income that he didn't have to continue at Airways.

Good for him, and I hope he does not have regrets for the rest of his life of all the time he had missed with his wife and children over the years to end up at this point, after a distinguished career of over 20 years.

What he should have had is the left seat, with a great schedule and a multi million dollor lumpsum distribution at age sixty, for his many years of sacrifices and dedicated service. So much for that.

 

[HalinTexas]

Plain and simple: We can't afford it. In case you didn't know, when you leave one flying job for another you give up seniority and the pay comiserate with the years of service.

When you're at a regional/small jet operator it's easier to take the hit to start over. When you've moved on to higher paying companies it's embarrassing to say the least to take the pay cut.

Ex: I started at the other, really crappy, TSA in late 1993. Made $16,600 my first year. Spent five long years there, left for greener pastures in late 1998 in the middle of Jungle jet transition. I was to be the No. 1 Captain in JFK on an RJ making about $43,000 a year. Ever try to live in NYC on that income? That's why I commute. To live where it's cheaper. Duh!

To continue. I took a $10,000/year paycut to go to ATA. Hired into the L10. Pay, benefits, schedules weren't all that great, but it was a he!! of a lot better than where I came from. I got a B757 type as an FO/IO and bought a house in 2003 based on FO pay in 2002. I upgraded to Captain on the B737 in less than 5 years in a slightly better state of the industry. I thought I had it made. Was pretty damn happy, in fact, 2003 was the happiest year of my life. 2004 sucked, one of the worst.

Today. ATA is in BK, should emerge, but then so what? We're a whiff of swamp gas compared to what we were. I turned 40 and began my 8th year at ATA last month. I've been downgraded to FO on the B73. I made $123K last year, now I'm making about $67K, $5K less than I was making 3 years ago. If there was no BK, paycuts/freezes etc. I'd be making around $150 a year! Holy sh!t. If they doesn't upset someone even just a little, then I don't know what to tell you.

New hire pay at the larger carriers is somewhere between $30K (CAL) to $50K (SWA, FEDEX) to $40K at Netjets (nice job, btw).

My home life is awsome. When I go home, all is well, I'm very happy.

Here's your answer. What do you tell your family, your creditors, your child-support dependent ex, or your non-aviation friends why you took another huge paycut to start over? I'm a grown man with adult responsibilities. If I could go sideways in this career (gaffaw! :laugh: ) I would, but it's not so simple. So you stick it out if you can, interview at places you can afford to go if they'll hire you, and hope for the best. In the mean time, it's my career, I'll cry if I want to.

 

[DirkkDiggler]

Who's talking about pay on this thread?

This guy:

[FONT=&quot]
3) Although I do believe in a free market it occurs to me that the market, when dealing with the airline industry, is artificially off set. I think it may be because of this that first year FOs are paid 19,000 a year and for the same reason why airlines will not raise ticket prices. Please note that this is just a theory of mine and I have no research to back it.

[/FONT]

And this guy:

If any of the large regionals out there offered unpaid internships for first year FO's (Mesa, XJT XJ, 9E, Eagle, Comair, Colgan, ASA, ect) there would be people banging down the door to get one.

 

[mr roper]

I quit flying for a living. I thought while working at mesa I had hit rock bottom. Most mesa pilots are miserable and hate their jobs. However, I was way wrong. The second regional I briefly worked at was was worse. I finally had all I could take. I called screw scheduling and just quit. I spent several months soul searching trying to decide what to do with myself.
I finally accepted an job using my college business degree. I am out of the office, and on the road a couple days a week. Life is great. I feel the best Ive felt in years. My biological clock has reset itself. I got to work at 8 am and go home at 4 pm, monday through friday. i will never miss another christmas, thanksgiving, new years eve , super bowl party, concert, nascar race, wedding, golf tournament etc , etc again because of my job. I decided long ago. Its not about the number of days off per month. Its the quality of those days off that counts. Finishing your trip in the evening (with 2 days off) and starting the next trip early in the morning makes for a short weekend. Commuting is nearly impossible. I work to live. I dont live to work.
Everytime I see or hear an airplane go over head, I stop what im doing and watch it. I still love to fly. I never go back flying for a living. Its the greatest job in the world from the time the FA closes the door until she opens it The rest of the crap you have with daily makes it not worth it to me.

Merry Christmas
Fly safe

 

[mamba20]

LOL, what a dumb thread. Back to the pond rookie! You'll figure it out soon enough. Once the doors are closed its great assuming you fly with cool people, but I'm not so sure its worth all the BS that goes along with it.

 

[jetfo]

He'll figure it out! And Mr Roper, good for you. Just wait until you can afford a VLJ and then you can fly for yourself when and where you want Maybe to that superbowl, while the rest of us are waiting at security.

 

[Ride Orange]

OI812,
The biggest thing you will notice in training is the whinning from the peeps that have never been through the things you have. I've done both (military and 121) and I thought training was a breeze, while others truly faced the toughest thing they have ever done. It's all about perspective. On that note, you can't really have a discussion on a place like this with people who haven't seen things from your side of the fence. And about the sacrifices others mentioned....you have already far exceeded that so it will be cake. And if you could corner one of the people that bitch about their job on here all of the time and asked them what else they would rather be doing instead...they probably wouldnt be able to think of anything. A bitching pilot is a happy pilot...er..sort of.

Good luck in initial!

 

[YourPilotFriend]

If pilots didn't complain, we would be a lot worse than we are now.

 

[miles otoole]

What he should have had is the left seat, with a great schedule and a multi million dollor lumpsum distribution at age sixty, for his many years of sacrifices and dedicated service. So much for that.

According to you? A multimillion dollar retirement for a blue collar job? Are you insane? With the technology today, the money should go to the aircraft engineers. Much of your salary in this industry in this salary better be in the enjoyment of the flying.

 

[suupah]

its hard/really hard to quite and go somewhere else because they make it so hard with the no pay or low pay during training, super low first year pay and go to the end of the line hiring. Once you ahve been somewhere for alittle bit it is just about impossible to go somewhere else.

 

[nonstop]

According to you? A multimillion dollar retirement for a blue collar job? Are you insane? With the technology today, the money should go to the aircraft engineers. Much of your salary in this industry in this salary better be in the enjoyment of the flying.

LOL... as soon as I get to stop practicing single engine non-precision approaches in the simulator I'll agree with that. In the mean time, all the engineers have done is stifle our career progression by removing a required crew member position (FE's). If anything the training has become more difficult because you not only have to learn how to not rely on automation, you have to learn how to rely on it as well.

As to the guy asking "why not quit your job if you're not happy?" I'd suggest staying in the military. If you have to ask that question you have no idea what you're getting into in the real world. Broken promises, dead ends, lost pensions are the norm here my friend... unfortunately it's not isolated to the airlines either.