If everyone hates their airline why not quit

[OI812]

ok ok i give up
this isnt exactly where i was going with this\

i just wanted to know why stay somewhere ya dont like

so i will wait and see for myself and after 6 months and i feel tha same as everyone else i will come pesonally say i was wrong and apoligize

 

[jetfo]

I doubt that anyone is looking forward to your apology. We just all hope that things will turn around in this industry and that quality of life and income will improve for all concerned.

 

[RichardRambone]

Absolutely true but how could we communicate that message to us young brats looking to fly? If the wages arent good enough, DONT TAKE THE JOB. We are all taking shatty jobs so we can move up to wherever but it sounds like moving up has become an oxymoron. I ferry planes and clean them and other office bs but I'd even have to take a pay cut to go to a regional. Give me break. What I fly isnt as important as if I can pay my bills. Its starts at the bottom and works its ugly way up. If we keep accepting things the way they are, there wont be changes, only downhill slides.

 

[jws717]

looking at the airlines from the outside is a very strange perspective, atlanta must look like an amusement park to you. All sorts of big jets rolling around. Ive been there myself, but after 6 months the jet boner goes away and it is just a job. A job that can be very exciting at times but more often very stressful. You must also realize that many pilots do not have direct information about what is happening at their airline, rumors are a way of life, many are real some are BS. And i am sure you complain about your job as a CFI to people as well.

 

[OI812]

looking at the airlines from the outside is a very strange perspective, atlanta must look like an amusement park to you. All sorts of big jets rolling around. Ive been there myself, but after 6 months the jet boner goes away and it is just a job. A job that can be very exciting at times but more often very stressful. You must also realize that many pilots do not have direct information about what is happening at their airline, rumors are a way of life, many are real some are BS. And i am sure you complain about your job as a CFI to people as well.

actually i really enjoy instructing and have seriously thought about staying at it, but there comes a time to move on.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

Why move on if its so great?

 

[OI812]

you know why

as an instructor you dont actually fly very often i want fly.
same reason most leave
but i am still staying on as a ground/sim instructor

 

[Dufus1]

It is funny how so many say "if only these 250 hour wonders would stop taking these low paying FO positions". Isn't that how we all got there? We all accepted one of those low paying FO positions. How soon we forget where we come from.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

It is funny how so many say "if only these 250 hour wonders would stop taking these low paying FO positions". Isn't that how we all got there? We all accepted one of those low paying FO positions. How soon we forget where we come from.

What the hell does this statement have to do with this thread? I haven't seen anyone say anything close to that in this thread at all.

 

[jetfo]

More and more pilots are leaving the airlines for corporate or other jobs. Heck, air traffic controllers make substantially more money than even most airline pilots. What's wrong with this picture?

Thousands of pilots are being produced by the pilot mills of ERAU, UND, DCA, FSI, etc. all being sold on getting an airline pilot job that will eventually pay them $100K+. They are being told the old story, and not the realities of today.

These wannabe pilots are putting themselves or their parents into $60K to $100K+ debt, just for the licenses needed to get an RJ job, without even a guarantee of that. That's not considering the cost of a degree at ERAU of UND. With a degree, probably at least $160K at ERAU.

When they get out, they find out the realities of an RJ job, that of being paid $20K to 30K for 5 to 7 years before upgrade. And then, the pay is not what it used to be even at Comair, after the concessions, maybe $60K a year.

This, along with the sacrifices associated with this occupation, is not being communicated to these prospective pilots. If they had the complete picture, many would chose other alternatives that yield greater rewards and less frustration and sacrifice.

The problem is that we all have a sickness that is called a love of flying. We drank the cool aid and now we are stuck. Many of us have pigeon holed ourselves into this career and once you have made the investment and commitment of time, it's difficult to get out.

What alternative jobs are you going to be able to obtain once you have dedicated years, or decades to a flying career? What are you going to be able to put on a resume that is relevant to an employer outside of aviation?

You end up being stuck, getting just enough money to keep on doing the same thing because you cannot replace even the marginal income.

I met A US Airways pilot commuting home the other day. He told me it was probably his last flight. He had been with Airways for over twenty years, lost most of his retirement, downgraded to reserve FO in DCA at about $60K a year.

He was fed up, was going to call in sick for the rest of December and take a three year leave after that, with no intention of returning. He was smart enough to build up a sideline business that was now able to supply enough income that he didn't have to continue at Airways.

Good for him, and I hope he does not have regrets for the rest of his life of all the time he had missed with his wife and children over the years to end up at this point, after a distinguished career of over 20 years.

What he should have had is the left seat, with a great schedule and a multi million dollor lumpsum distribution at age sixty, for his many years of sacrifices and dedicated service. So much for that.

 

[HalinTexas]

Plain and simple: We can't afford it. In case you didn't know, when you leave one flying job for another you give up seniority and the pay comiserate with the years of service.

When you're at a regional/small jet operator it's easier to take the hit to start over. When you've moved on to higher paying companies it's embarrassing to say the least to take the pay cut.

Ex: I started at the other, really crappy, TSA in late 1993. Made $16,600 my first year. Spent five long years there, left for greener pastures in late 1998 in the middle of Jungle jet transition. I was to be the No. 1 Captain in JFK on an RJ making about $43,000 a year. Ever try to live in NYC on that income? That's why I commute. To live where it's cheaper. Duh!

To continue. I took a $10,000/year paycut to go to ATA. Hired into the L10. Pay, benefits, schedules weren't all that great, but it was a he!! of a lot better than where I came from. I got a B757 type as an FO/IO and bought a house in 2003 based on FO pay in 2002. I upgraded to Captain on the B737 in less than 5 years in a slightly better state of the industry. I thought I had it made. Was pretty damn happy, in fact, 2003 was the happiest year of my life. 2004 sucked, one of the worst.

Today. ATA is in BK, should emerge, but then so what? We're a whiff of swamp gas compared to what we were. I turned 40 and began my 8th year at ATA last month. I've been downgraded to FO on the B73. I made $123K last year, now I'm making about $67K, $5K less than I was making 3 years ago. If there was no BK, paycuts/freezes etc. I'd be making around $150 a year! Holy sh!t. If they doesn't upset someone even just a little, then I don't know what to tell you.

New hire pay at the larger carriers is somewhere between $30K (CAL) to $50K (SWA, FEDEX) to $40K at Netjets (nice job, btw).

My home life is awsome. When I go home, all is well, I'm very happy.

Here's your answer. What do you tell your family, your creditors, your child-support dependent ex, or your non-aviation friends why you took another huge paycut to start over? I'm a grown man with adult responsibilities. If I could go sideways in this career (gaffaw! :laugh: ) I would, but it's not so simple. So you stick it out if you can, interview at places you can afford to go if they'll hire you, and hope for the best. In the mean time, it's my career, I'll cry if I want to.

 

[DirkkDiggler]

Who's talking about pay on this thread?

This guy:

[FONT=&quot]
3) Although I do believe in a free market it occurs to me that the market, when dealing with the airline industry, is artificially off set. I think it may be because of this that first year FOs are paid 19,000 a year and for the same reason why airlines will not raise ticket prices. Please note that this is just a theory of mine and I have no research to back it.

[/FONT]

And this guy:

If any of the large regionals out there offered unpaid internships for first year FO's (Mesa, XJT XJ, 9E, Eagle, Comair, Colgan, ASA, ect) there would be people banging down the door to get one.

 

[mr roper]

I quit flying for a living. I thought while working at mesa I had hit rock bottom. Most mesa pilots are miserable and hate their jobs. However, I was way wrong. The second regional I briefly worked at was was worse. I finally had all I could take. I called screw scheduling and just quit. I spent several months soul searching trying to decide what to do with myself.
I finally accepted an job using my college business degree. I am out of the office, and on the road a couple days a week. Life is great. I feel the best Ive felt in years. My biological clock has reset itself. I got to work at 8 am and go home at 4 pm, monday through friday. i will never miss another christmas, thanksgiving, new years eve , super bowl party, concert, nascar race, wedding, golf tournament etc , etc again because of my job. I decided long ago. Its not about the number of days off per month. Its the quality of those days off that counts. Finishing your trip in the evening (with 2 days off) and starting the next trip early in the morning makes for a short weekend. Commuting is nearly impossible. I work to live. I dont live to work.
Everytime I see or hear an airplane go over head, I stop what im doing and watch it. I still love to fly. I never go back flying for a living. Its the greatest job in the world from the time the FA closes the door until she opens it The rest of the crap you have with daily makes it not worth it to me.

Merry Christmas
Fly safe

 

[mamba20]

LOL, what a dumb thread. Back to the pond rookie! You'll figure it out soon enough. Once the doors are closed its great assuming you fly with cool people, but I'm not so sure its worth all the BS that goes along with it.

 

[jetfo]

He'll figure it out! And Mr Roper, good for you. Just wait until you can afford a VLJ and then you can fly for yourself when and where you want Maybe to that superbowl, while the rest of us are waiting at security.

 

[Ride Orange]

OI812,
The biggest thing you will notice in training is the whinning from the peeps that have never been through the things you have. I've done both (military and 121) and I thought training was a breeze, while others truly faced the toughest thing they have ever done. It's all about perspective. On that note, you can't really have a discussion on a place like this with people who haven't seen things from your side of the fence. And about the sacrifices others mentioned....you have already far exceeded that so it will be cake. And if you could corner one of the people that bitch about their job on here all of the time and asked them what else they would rather be doing instead...they probably wouldnt be able to think of anything. A bitching pilot is a happy pilot...er..sort of.

Good luck in initial!

 

[YourPilotFriend]

If pilots didn't complain, we would be a lot worse than we are now.

 

[miles otoole]

What he should have had is the left seat, with a great schedule and a multi million dollor lumpsum distribution at age sixty, for his many years of sacrifices and dedicated service. So much for that.

According to you? A multimillion dollar retirement for a blue collar job? Are you insane? With the technology today, the money should go to the aircraft engineers. Much of your salary in this industry in this salary better be in the enjoyment of the flying.

 

[suupah]

its hard/really hard to quite and go somewhere else because they make it so hard with the no pay or low pay during training, super low first year pay and go to the end of the line hiring. Once you ahve been somewhere for alittle bit it is just about impossible to go somewhere else.

 

[nonstop]

According to you? A multimillion dollar retirement for a blue collar job? Are you insane? With the technology today, the money should go to the aircraft engineers. Much of your salary in this industry in this salary better be in the enjoyment of the flying.

LOL... as soon as I get to stop practicing single engine non-precision approaches in the simulator I'll agree with that. In the mean time, all the engineers have done is stifle our career progression by removing a required crew member position (FE's). If anything the training has become more difficult because you not only have to learn how to not rely on automation, you have to learn how to rely on it as well.

As to the guy asking "why not quit your job if you're not happy?" I'd suggest staying in the military. If you have to ask that question you have no idea what you're getting into in the real world. Broken promises, dead ends, lost pensions are the norm here my friend... unfortunately it's not isolated to the airlines either.