If Delta had asked this, woudl the pilot have accepted?

[Hair-on-Fire]

I think Song is a great product! It blows Jetblue out of the water! .

Yea, look how it blew them out of the water.

 

[Dizel8]

I wouldn't go down that road!!

Random date.

JetBlue - SEA to BOS $119
Alaska - SEA to BOS $409
AA - SEA to BOS $549

Your need a new search engine

SEA-BOS on AA: $196
SEA-BOS on jbu: $198

However, we both know that really isn't the point, since fare fluctuates from day to day, the point is, that it isn't a single airline keeping the fares low, sadly, all airline are guilty of it. Overheard in the board room: "Who cares if we lose money, look at the marketshare"!

 

[Publishers]

The fact is that the industry was going to change. It was inevitable. You can continue the whine without the cheese but this is the new generation and the new industry. In the old days, you saw that older grey haired four stripper sitting up there in an aircraft made by one of 10 manufacturers with all kinds of varibles of service levels and pricing.
Today,, you get on your Boeing or Airbus, all is pretty much the same and you go to another airport where you get treated like the crap you went through at the first one.

You can bitch about the change, but, from a passenger perspective, it is not the same either.

 

[kassel737]

$89 for A Capt.and $53 for an FO, sounds like what it cost to fly on JB to LA. Let me get this right, the EMB-190 ia a hundred seat plane and they pay this. No plan a or b, 5 year contract, and a paltry 3% match. It is what it is.

 

[Dizel8]

Yep!!

Why are you not also upset at Midex and their pay on the 717 or U with a 12 year A-320 pilot making $125?

Take at look at some of the payscales on that site , I bet it could keep your panties in a wad for days!

 

[holdon]

Well, why don't these JB pilots get a union on property and raise their wages. Any union. Oh, that's right. They have a 4 or 5 year contract and the company would just get rid of them. So much for a profession.

That's it, A Union is the Answer!! Man, that ALPA sure does go to bat for it's constituents. Bring um on (but don't shoot until you see the whites of their eyes)

 

[kassel737]

Obviously you don't mind the expressjet wages to fly the 190.

 

[Dizel8]

Obviously you don't mind the expressjet wages to fly the 190.

Kassel, since you are so smart, why don't you tell the class, what the solution is? Clearly, it isn't neccesarily unionizing, because that hasn't helped lately.

So let's hear from you, what should pilots be doing, how can we all raise our wages?

 

[kassel737]

Get some type of organized group to say we are not working for the BS wages they are paying. Union? I don't care what you get. Without a union it is somewhat more difficult to get everyone on the same page. Tell me though, why do they have a five year contract? What is the purpose? Is it to intimidate pilots to not form a union? It's been done before.

 

[Dizel8]

Oh you mean like the UALPA, they really told management didn't they or the union at UAL? Heck, let's see what happens at NWA and DAL?

The five year contract has been discussed ad naseum, do a search!

 

[Captain Overs]

I've got an idea. Instead of using "Flashy" colors and other things why not just give good service at a reasonable price? I don't care how much entertainment choices I have and the color of my plane. If the gate agents and FA's are rude it's a bad experience.

 

[jbucpt]

Get some type of organized group to say we are not working for the BS wages they are paying. Union? I don't care what you get. Without a union it is somewhat more difficult to get everyone on the same page. Tell me though, why do they have a five year contract? What is the purpose? Is it to intimidate pilots to not form a union? It's been done before.

so what your saying is we should become organized i.e. DELTA, USAIR, NORTHWEST,UNITED so management cannot dictate or force us to accept changes in workrules/payrates/retirement benefits etc,etc.

i think your head has been in the sand for the last 3 years.........

 

[kassel737]

It's better than taking it in the rear willingly.

 

[Green]

Yep!!

Why are you not also upset at Midex and their pay on the 717 or U with a 12 year A-320 pilot making $125?

Take at look at some of the payscales on that site , I bet it could keep your panties in a wad for days!

To be fair to AAA they took three pay cuts to arrive at the 125/hr mark. They were on the verge of liquidation several times. When the company was growing and profitable (like JB currently is) the AAA pilots would have never settled/been comfortable with 125/hr to fly the A-320...

 

[jbucpt]

To be fair to AAA they took three pay cuts to arrive at the 125/hr mark. They were on the verge of liquidation several times. When the company was growing and profitable (like JB currently is) the AAA pilots would have never settled/been comfortable with 125/hr to fly the A-320...

thats $125+63 over 70 hours.....if the AAA pilots along with their ALPA Brothers had any business or economic sense i.e. southwest/jetblue, they would not have GIVEN IT ALL BACK AND LOST THEIR JOBS when the economy went south..............

 

[kassel737]

So basically the pilot group had to whore itself to make what it deserves?

 

[a320drivr]

Who was the idiot pilot in the recent meeting that told David we should give up premium pay and restrict lines to 70 hrs to help the company out due to high fuel costs. You dont speak for me and I would guess about 99% of the pilot group. Mgmt. had an oppurtunity to hedge a ton of fuel but chose not to. Why arent they answering to anyone.

 

[zkmayo]

Yes, that comment got my attention too. I thought 'Man this guy doesnt speak for me or anyone I know.' Im glad that David's response was what it was.

 

[Patriot328]

Yes, that comment got my attention too. I thought 'Man this guy doesnt speak for me or anyone I know.' Im glad that David's response was what it was.

I'd have taken that numbnuts out back for a comment like that, but what if David's response wasn't what it was? If things turn bad for y'all, his answer might be "that sounds like a good idea".

thats $125+63 over 70 hours.....

FWIW, eyeballing CAL's pay scales, you'll have to fly 100hrs in a month at JB's 12yr CA rate to catch up to a 12 yr CAL NB CA if he flew NOTHING but the 737-300s and -500s, not including any inevitable -8,900 flying during the month which pays more.

That's true for almost every pay rate and longevity. It varies from 90-ish to 100hrs, depending on seat and year. Where is doesn't compare is first year at CAL. Terrible.

...with a 12 year A-320 pilot making $125?

United didn't necessarily lower the bar... it could be said they fell flat on their faces while tripping over jB's.

 

[Falconjet]

Bar isn't being lowered, it HAS been lowered.

I took a quick peek at 5 year numbers for 320 Cpt's at JB vs. UAL. And the FO numbers. Both within a couple of bucks.

Wouldn't appear that JB is the one "lowering the bar".

Very enlightening.

I disagree. If you compare current jB (and everybody else's for that matter) wages with those of the legacies 4+ years ago, you can see clearly that they are much lower now. Thus, the bar HAS been lowered. Sure the jB guys aren't lowering it now, they did that when the went to work for jB and accepted those wages back when other companies were paying better, OR after getting furloughed after 911.

jB guys cannot sit here and say "look our rates are the same or better than yours now, so we're not lowering the bar". All that does is prove that the bar HAS been lowered down to your level. Congrats, mission complete.

Is it the jB guys fault? Is it ALPA's fault? Is it the companies fault? Yes and No for each. The market has changed because of so many things, but the fact remains that when the bottom feeders of yesterday are now on top, the bar HAS been lowered.

jB guys are just as culpable as anybody else in this trend, despite their protestations to the contrary.

FJ

 

[B6Driver]

I take full credit for all my choices at JetBlue And what anybody made 4+ years ago, well, need I even answer that?

 

[DIAMONDDD]

B6 should take credit for the demise of Eastern and possibly Pan Am.

 

[Dizel8]

jB gus are just as culpable as anybody else in this trend, despite their protestations to the contrary.
FJ

Absolutely, but the emphasis should be "as culpable as everyone else". A small company, now and at the time, cannot be expected nor accused of dictating the terms of say the U or the UAL contract, just like Airtran is not the reason why DAL is where they are currently at.

History has recorded plenty of pilots willingly acepting lower pay, in the expectance of greater rewards. Today, people are tripping all over themselves trying to get on with SWA, a change that has happened only recently. Same could be said for those now joining FDX and UPS, only a few years back, they saw people leaving for the pax carriers.

What is the problem, what is the solution? Heck if I know, but if it involves me giving up my job and my stability at jetblue, because someone thinks I should take a fall for the "profession" and choke the golden goose for all its eggs, then sorry no, that will not happen.

 

[pilotyip]

Funny we never seem to blame the flying public and their economic choices, the Internet revolution that provides instant access to everyone fares, and the obsolete model of living off of first class fares. Instead we blame management, other people, and inability of the unions to stop the change in air travel. The New World is here, it is unstoppable and $125-$150 a year for flying pax is still a good job. Jet Blue is a good job; a good company and pilots from the BK legacy are applying at Jet Blue in large numbers. I meet them at the Air Inc job fair in ATL last weekend and them were in the Jetblue line.

 

[B777]

When I first wrote this thread, my intentions were not to bash B6 and its pilots or any other company for that matter. I was simply presenting my opinion that the Song product is better than the Jetblue product. I was strictly talking products. It does not do the whole pilot community any good to blame B6 for DAL' woes. It's time to stick together and not be divided. Before Jetblue, there was Valujet in ATL which became Airtran. I remember when they first started they were selling tickets for $29 one way! And also before Jetblue is Spirit Airlines. And even before all of these there was and still is Southwest. What started all of this is deregulation, which is exatly why it was enacted, to bring competetion.

As another pilot had mentioned, the days of earning $300K and having a pension are gone, it's time to think about your 401K. However you do have to draw a line somewhere. And to me, I find something wrong with the idea of a captain flying 767 overseas making the same amount as flying a 737 domestically or a 717.

Going back to my original thread, what are your suggestion on what DAL can do in order to compete against B6, FL, NK, WN and yet still pay the pilots what they earn today?

 

[FurloughedTwice]

Here are the numbers if everyone is still interested. It's hard to tell what you will actually make though because I'm sure the lines are built over 70 hours.


A320CA EMBCA A320FO EMBFO
1st 110 71 51 37
2nd 113 72 56 40
3rd 116 74 61 42
4th 118 76 67 44
5th 121 77 72 46
6th 123 79 73 47
7th 126 80 74 48
8th 128 82 74 49
9th 131 84 75 49
10th 133 85 76 51
11th 136 87 76 52
12th 139 89 76 53


Each hour above 70/mo paid at 150%

 

[smellthejeta]

Funny we never seem to blame the flying public and their economic choices, the Internet revolution that provides instant access to everyone fares, and the obsolete model of living off of first class fares. Instead we blame management, other people, and inability of the unions to stop the change in air travel. The New World is here, it is unstoppable and $125-$150 a year for flying pax is still a good job. Jet Blue is a good job; a good company and pilots from the BK legacy are applying at Jet Blue in large numbers. I meet them at the Air Inc job fair in ATL last weekend and them were in the Jetblue line.

Speaking as part of the flying public...

My trips are leisure. That means I go if I feel like it. The cheaper the fares are, the more often I fly. So am I to be blamed because I can go to expedia and see a side by side listing of all of the fares and flight times, and then pick which one best suits my perferences? Truth is, leisure travel has a price point. You either deliver the product at a price the consumer is willing to pay, or your product won't sell. Yer right about the good jobs at $100k+. Anybody who can make that kind of money is still in a position to live the good life.

 

[Falconjet]

There have been all kinds of posts about blaming the customers (at least partially) for the woes of the industry. Riddle me this though. Everybody seems to feel like the market is so price sensitive that people will stop flying if the prices are raised. So Delta, United, NW and AA keep lowering their fares and they still are losing money.

When are some of these folks going to have the balls to actually raise fares and give it a shot? What do they have to lose? More money, almost impossible to imagine, but what the hey. The employees have given back about 50% of their wages, and the cost of gas continues to soar, and the managers shrug their shoulders and say there is nothing they can do except cut wages more.

How about raising the fares? As a customer I don't want to pay more but you know what, if I need to fly somewhere I will pay what it costs. If I were so price sensitive I would simply drive. Raising fares might not work, but then again it doesn't seem anybody has tried, might as well give it a shot.

I guess that is too complex and idea for the rocket scientists running the legacy carriers these days.

FJ

 

[pilotyip]

Falconjet again you miss the point. NWA tried raising fares, ridership took an instand dive, then NWA dropped the fare increase them because no one matched them. Now if everyone gets together and raises the fares, ridership nationwide will drop and there will be fewer pilot jobs. Low end fare people fly because it is cheaper than driving. If fares goes up the marginal customer drives or does not take the trip.

 

[Dizel8]

If I were so price sensitive I would simply drive.
FJ

Several posters have shown that to be the more expensive option, not only in time but cost as well.