IBT 1108 Executive Board Announcement

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

Explain the exact process that makes it binding?

It was signed by our president and each individual employee.

That makes it a written contract.

We have not had a vote since the contracts went in to effect.

We are going to have a pilot representative who will be involved in the voting process.

Kinda sounds like that "seat at the table" you keep telling us we should want.

 

[slowtation capt]

It was signed by our president and each individual employee.

That makes it a written contract.

We have not had a vote since the contracts went in to effect.

We are going to have a pilot representative who will be involved in the voting process.

Kinda sounds like that "seat at the table" you keep telling us we should want.

And if they change something without your vote, what then?

 

[V1 Rotate]

Can you give some examples over the last few years where management made a decision and you all got together and voted to change it.
How is this done?

Did you have a vote before your sick days were taken away or is it still being discussed and when will the vote take place?

We didn't have a voting process until the Pilot Agreement came out. Actually an improvement over what we already had when it came to changes in work rules.

 

[ProFracPilot]

And if they change something without your vote, what then?

They can sue the company for breach of contract.

And I'm sure the company would be happy to fund the legal team required for an employee to defend his or her (individual) contract.

Which begs the question: I wonder if all of those individual contracts read alike? Or maybe there's a little sumthin'-sumthin' in some, but not others?

Maybe they're all posted on yammer for everyone to read [emoji53]

 

[V1 Rotate]

They can sue the company for breach of contract.

And I'm sure the company would be happy to fund the legal team required for an employee to defend his or her (individual) contract.

Which begs the question: I wonder if all of those individual contracts read alike? Or maybe there's a little sumthin'-sumthin' in some, but not others?

Maybe they're all posted on yammer for everyone to read [emoji53]

If Flexjet blatantly breaches our agreement I don't think we'd have a hard time finding a lawyer that would be willing to represent such a sure-fire case.

 

[ProFracPilot]

If Flexjet blatantly breaches our agreement I don't think we'd have a hard time finding a lawyer that would be willing to represent such a sure-fire case.

This is a serious question: Is it ONE agreement, or is it 400+ individual agreements?

 

[jetwash]

We didn't have a voting process until the Pilot Agreement came out. Actually an improvement over what we already had when it came to changes in work rules.

Did the pilots vote for the agreement? If so what percent voted for and how much voted against?
I assume it passed since it is now in effect. When does it come up for renewal?

 

[slowtation capt]

Did the pilots vote for the agreement? If so what percent voted for and how much voted against?
I assume it passed since it is now in effect. When does it come up for renewal?

I don't see a renewal date on it, until the company decides that they want to issue you a new one.

I guess this would be their vote for it; "if another crewmember does not sign a Crewmember Emplyment Agreement their seniority will not be protected which may positively impact your seniority."

Why is it, "Upon upgrade to Captain, the First Officer will enter the Captain pay scale based upon hire date minus one year. Example: 4 year First Officer upgrades to Captain. The First Officer will start the Learjet Captain pay scale at Year 3."?

 

[slowtation capt]

This is a serious question: Is it ONE agreement, or is it 400+ individual agreements?

My guess, there are multiple; "....who have signed a Crewmember Employment Agreement substantially identical to this Agreement and vote on the proposed modification."

 

[Club ORD FO]

It was signed by our president and each individual employee.

Do you really have a signed copy? If so that's the first I've heard of it. I mailed in my signed page but never got anything back.

 

[slowtation capt]

If Flexjet blatantly breaches our agreement I don't think we'd have a hard time finding a lawyer that would be willing to represent such a sure-fire case.

Would you have a hard time paying for it though; "The Company and You will share the payment of the arbitrator's fee equally."

 

[Club ORD FO]

Why is it, "Upon upgrade to Captain, the First Officer will enter the Captain pay scale based upon hire date minus one year. Example: 4 year First Officer upgrades to Captain. The First Officer will start the Learjet Captain pay scale at Year 3."?

That's a carry over from an old thing they did long ago. From what I've been told, in the early day (like, year zero) when you upgraded to captain you started at year 1 captain. Everyone was upgrading fast so that was fine. Then there was a wait for upgrade so they made it current years of service minus 1. It's a silly old thing, don't pay any attention to it. Hopefully they will get rid of it for simplicity sake.

Did the pilots vote for the agreement? If so what percent voted for and how much voted against?
I assume it passed since it is now in effect. When does it come up for renewal?

There was no vote. We were told we could choose to sign or not to sign. I don't know if anybody didn't sign. There is no renewal, its ongoing.

This is a serious question: Is it ONE agreement, or is it 400+ individual agreements?

One agreement for everyone.

 

[ProFracPilot]

My guess, there are multiple; "....who have signed a Crewmember Employment Agreement substantially identical to this Agreement and vote on the proposed modification."

Thanks SC.

You have all signed your very own, individual, employment agreement. They appear to be "substantially identical", but perhaps no two are alike.

Ok.

The folks defending this agreement seem to believe it is a legal and binding contract. And I would probably agree with you.

However, I think it is also safe to assume that if you find the other party to the agreement has failed to uphold any part of the agreement, you are on your own to defend it. There's absolutely nothing collective about it, nor does it have the protections, that a collective agreement has.

Just so long as everyone understands this extremely important difference for the sake of the ongoing debate.

Carry on.

 

[doh]

It says we are at will employees in the agreement.

 

[jetwash]

That's a carry over from an old thing they did long ago. From what I've been told, in the early day (like, year zero) when you upgraded to captain you started at year 1 captain. e.

What about going from year 8 Lear Captain to the Challenger?

Do you go to year 8 CL300 Captain or start at Year 1 CL300 Captain pay?


That was what Kenn did to the Flight Options pilots before the CBA. When you went up to another aircraft you went down to year 1 pay in that aircraft.

They called it " slide to parity" we called it " slide to poverty".
That is another reason that the FO pilots do not want to go back to the way it was before the contract.

 

[Club ORD FO]

What about going from year 8 Lear Captain to the Challenger?

Do you go to year 8 CL300 Captain or start at Year 1 CL300 Captain pay?

No nothing weird happens there. If you are year 8 captain (ha! like we have any year 8 captains), you would go to year 8 challenger.

 

[jetwash]

No nothing weird happens there. If you are year 8 captain (ha! like we have any year 8 captains), you would go to year 8 challenger.

That was a big problem at Flight Options before the contract.

When the contract came in we had many pilots get a 40 or 45% pay increase over the life of the contract. Mainly due to Kenns little game with pay rates. That is just one of the things that we are trying to inform you about.

When we hear criticism about our contract and pay rate we realize that you did not really understand what it was really like before the CBA. This "lousy" CBA gave many pilots a huge pay increase and we expect a lot more in the next one.

 

[V1 Rotate]

Do you really have a signed copy? If so that's the first I've heard of it. I mailed in my signed page but never got anything back.

I made copies of each page, including Page 12 that has Deanna's signature on it.

 

[doh]

I made copies of each page, including Page 12 that has Deanna's signature on it.

And does it not say you are an at will employee?

 

[FR8DOG777]

So honest question here, what happens when RICCI decides to discard like he has chosen to ignore cba, loa's and scope clauses and waits for lawsuits to be drawn out? How much financial backing do you think our combined pilot groups can muster to fight this?

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

That was a big problem at Flight Options before the contract.

When the contract came in we had many pilots get a 40 or 45% pay increase over the life of the contract. Mainly due to Kenns little game with pay rates. That is just one of the things that we are trying to inform you about.

When we hear criticism about our contract and pay rate we realize that you did not really understand what it was really like before the CBA. This "lousy" CBA gave many pilots a huge pay increase and we expect a lot more in the next one.

Wait, your pay was worse before this CBA?

I am sure you expect more in your next contract, and I sure as heck hope you get it.

You guys are worth more than the contract the IBT sold you on.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

38% increase was a big jump for us!

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

And does it not say you are an at will employee?

Yes it does.

More pilots were fired when I had a job under a CBA than here at FJ.

Are you saying that no pilots get fired at FO? You can show up to work and fly in your birthday suit and not get fired? No, wait you guys can get fired just like us. You just have a union that will do like every other union and pick and choose who's job they feel like fighting for.

 

[dime line]

And does it not say you are an at will employee?

(b) If the Employment Period is terminated by either Party for any reason other than a termination by the Company without Cause, then You will be entitled to receive only (i) ..............

Page 7, Para B

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

38% increase was a big jump for us!

Seriously, your pay went up 38% and that got you to where you are now?

Wow

 

[jetwash]

Seriously, your pay went up 38% and that got you to where you are now?

Wow

Some close to 45% pay increase over the 5 years.

So in 2009 at the height of the great recession getting a CBA with a 45% pay increase was acceptable from where we started.

To match the Flex pay it would have had to have been closer to 80% and Kenn was not going to go for that.

In the second contract we are aiming for a lot more unless Kenn is put back in the drivers seat and plays his games with all of our pays ( your included )

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

Thanks SC.

You have all signed your very own, individual, employment agreement. They appear to be "substantially identical", but perhaps no two are alike.

Ok.

The folks defending this agreement seem to believe it is a legal and binding contract. And I would probably agree with you.

However, I think it is also safe to assume that if you find the other party to the agreement has failed to uphold any part of the agreement, you are on your own to defend it. There's absolutely nothing collective about it, nor does it have the protections, that a collective agreement has.

Just so long as everyone understands this extremely important difference for the sake of the ongoing debate.

Carry on.

Grasping at straws to try to show that our management team plays favorites.

Everyone's agreement was the same.

That part is in there so that we still get a vote after the agreement has been modified by a vote. If it said identical than it would be open to interpretation.

Guys, the IBT is going over this document word for word to give these union pushers anything to cause us to doubt our management team. They want us not to trust management, but instead trust them.

The IBT doesn't want to help us. They want you paying dues to them. Some of their pilots (as they have posted on FI) want to use this to take our jobs.

Don't let their manipulative mind games get to you.

They don't care about us. They are lying.

They want our money.

 

[dime line]

(4) Additional Employment Conditions. During the Employment Period, You will be(expected to abide by all Company policies, procedures, operations manuals, employee handbooks and guidelines that are subject to change without notification from time to time as directed by the Company officials. In addition ..........................

So this is a contract that sounds very fluid

Page 7, Para 4

 

[dime line]

Seriously, your pay went up 38% and that got you to where you are now?

Wow

Lets remember where your pay was when you got your raise after the Netjets contract

Wow

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

(4) Additional Employment Conditions. During the Employment Period, You will be(expected to abide by all Company policies, procedures, operations manuals, employee handbooks and guidelines that are subject to change without notification from time to time as directed by the Company officials. In addition ..........................

So this is a contract that sounds very fluid

Page 7, Para 4

So FO can't update their FOM without union approval?

Things do change from time to time.

Are you saying FJ shouldn't be allowed to open additional domiciles if they choose?