I haven't stopped laughing yet!!

[typhoonpilot]

Dondk

You're right about ALPA being for the big guys and more accurately for the senior pilots at the big guys. The reason that ALPA/APA has tried to have limits on the number of RJs at the regionals is to help the profession. The more jets flown at the major level the more jobs there will be at higher pay/better working conditions for all professional pilots. Unfortunately the economics of the marketplace are not allowing that to happen. In the end we all lose.

Nobody at a major wants to take jobs from the regional pilots, more accurately they would prefer that the regional pilots get an opportunity, if they so desire, to get to the major airlines. In the
end that is what the scope clauses are about. Remember, that is wasn't that long ago that the so called major/national airlines had lots of 100 seat and fewer jets. At one time USAirways had 45 FK-28s and 20 something BAe 146s.

In this particular situation no pilots at the regional would get furloughed, quite to the contrary. The respective regionals would be getting more RJs to fly with only half the aircraft manned by USAirways pilots. So the regionals would almost definitely have to hire more pilots. I agree though, that the agreement should specify a method of furloughing, should that happen. Certainly no regional pilot on the property the day the agreement is signed should be furloughed as a result of a USAirways furloughee coming to work at that regional.

GNS2005

Thank you for maintaining a level headed discussion. When seniority is discussed tempers flare very easily.

"Another option would be to arrange a separate airline operation with the regional partners and staff the planes only with USAir furloughees. Everyone would be in the same boat, seniority would allow you guys to sit as F/O's and CPT's and fly together, then as things progress, begin to merge that operation into current regional operations at the parent regional. Smoother transition and less of a shock to the system. Just a thought. "

That is a great thought and it occured to us as well. USAirways group owns a non-operational certificate that this idea could easliy be implemented under. Unfortunately, management isn't willing to go that route. When this all started three years ago we had hoped to get the regional jets either on the mainline under group 4 pay rates ( FK-28 ) or at the wholly owneds. Then your idea came up and as with the other two it wasn't what management wanted to do. Again, they don't want to front the money for the aircraft.

Now all we are left with is the current scenario. Again, in regards to the seniority issue, think of it this way. What if your airline bought another airline that included 40 aircraft but only enough pilots to staff 20 of those aircraft ? There would be a fair and equitable seniority integration in which the lists were merged. The pilots at your airline would benefit from the additional flying the 20 aircraft represented and the merged pilots would continue on under the new company. If I was working at your airline, I would really like a deal like that.

"I respect that they are fighting for you guys, I just think that interests would be better served by approaching the regional partners with a more traditional seniority based solution, such as keeping your numbers at USAir, getting your pay for longevity at the major and going into new hire status like all other new hires. "

In the end, that may be the agreement.


typhoonpilot

 

[dondk]

typhoonpilot

Well put...


Again only adding my .02...

Recently I spoke with a TSA pilot who was considering this SJ/RJ offer by the MEC. His take on it was very similar to your take with a few exceptions... Yes, the regionals will get more equipment and hence more opportunities, the cost according to this pilot was 15% of current TSA pilots who would have to be furloughed UNTIL the equipment met the staffing. Is 15% worthy? according to this individual, yes as the growth and opportunities for the group as a whole would outweigh the 15% on the street...

No one has many SJ/RJ's just sitting around, so there would have to be some concessions on both sides, even at the good rate of 4 a month it would take months to make a dent for the Airways furloughee's. Those contract operators who do have orders, some are for the 700/900 RJ's, not the 40-50 seaters that are the current issue.

When you mention that no one at the majors want to take jobs from the regionals I do not completely agree. Just look at flow-through and flow back agreements. Most flow-through agreements are limited, while the flow back are not as limiting. Granted this is BOTH the regional and major management pulling some of the strings.

I just find it difficult to swallow when Airways has treated there respective regionals both wholly owned and contract carriers with disdain. Now with the chips down so to speak it is a different atmosphere. For the regionals, they do need Airways for survival, the question though will be at what cost.

Again my .02, I feel for all parties as I really do not see a clear winner here, not that there has to be one either.

 

[eddie]

This deal doesn't seem to make sense for anyone but usairways pilots.

Here's what I've gotten from reading this thread.

1) A contract carrier will put up the cash that wolf is unwilling or unable to come up with, to buy jets with usairways paint.

2) To have the privilege of flying under those colors, that carrier will be required to hire furloughed usairways pilots instead of using the normal means of hiring pilots.

3) This company will be paying the new pilots longevity at their old company instead of 1st year new hire pay they should be getting.

4) There may be a hollow if not laughable offer of preferential hiring of pilots from this contract carrier into usairways in the future.

Please let me know if I have misunderstood something here.

I was furloughed last fall, now I'm a new hire at a new company and I would have loved to walk in to a captain slot. I guess since I didn't work for usairways I'll have to wait my turn.

 

[Andy Neill]

What you are missing is the 50% growth (or lack of furlough) opportunity for the company pilots, and faster upgrade opportunities. The existing pilots would also have a stack of USAir pilots under them to take the reserve lines. The price (corruption of the seniority system) for these bennies, however, is too great for most pilot groups.

 

[BoredToDeath]

Too Little Too Late

The US AIRWAYS MEC should have never been as short sighted in the first place to restrict RJ/SJ flying to a mere 70 planes. When the CRJ first came out the turboprop started it's slow retirement. It seems that every airline except for Airways was smart enough to start replacing turboprops. Now look at us screaming for jets. Its like trying to put a Band-Aid on a shark bit. The WOs should have had as many RJs by now that at least Comair has, that might have at least saved this company from losing the customers that it had.

Jets for Jobs is a farse! Don't think for a minute that these guys won't try to keep their positions at the top of your seniority list and at a better pay rate at your contract carrier once this Titanic finally sinks to the bottom. That BS about how they don't want super senoirity is just that, BS. When they want to upgrade their furloughees to Capt. before your FOs there something wrong.

Do what the WOs (PDT, ALG, PSA) did. Tell them to POUND SAND!

Have A Nice Day.

 

[typhoonpilot]

Dondk

I don't know the situation at TSA, but I don't understand how this agreement would result in the furlough of 15% of their pilots. The additional jets should provide more jobs both in the short term and the long term, not fewer jobs . You are right about the rate of delivery and the time for jobs to be available for all the USAirways furloughees it is quite a few years from the projections I have seen. In the meantime the respective regional should have a net growth. The only way TSA would have to furlough is if they are replacing two turboprops for one jet. Again, I would say that an agreement shouldn't allow the furlough of any active regional pilot on the day the deal is signed and no USAirways furloughee should be hired until all of that regionals furloughees have been recalled.

Eddie

Your summation is pretty good but I don't agree with saying it doesn't make sense for anyone but USAirways pilots. It makes a lot of sense for the regionals. They get more jets to fly which should be good for everybody on their list. In the case of Skywest, which is one of the possible regionals they get a new codeshare partner and a place for their ordered RJs to be flown. As I am told that the ones targeted for the United codeshare are in jeopardy. When and if all the USAirways furloughees are recalled the jets remain and the remaining regional pilots move up again.

Andy Neill

I don't see how this corrupts the seniority system. It is just like I said in my last response. Think of it as the regional buying another airline and having to take the pilots with the deal and giving them a fair and equitable seniority integration. No corruption there.

Bored to Death

The wholly owneds were where the majority of USAirways pilots would like to have seen the RJs go, barring them going on the mainline. A flowthrough should have been done years ago, but we can't cry over spilt milk. I sure don't cry about not being offered a job at Henson when they took over the FK-28 routes. Unfortunately this whole thing will be the death of the wholly owneds as they won't be able to compete without jets.

 

[Marko Ramius]

Another option would be to arrange a separate airline operation with the regional partners and staff the planes only with USAir furloughees. Everyone would be in the same boat, seniority would allow you guys to sit as F/O's and CPT's and fly together, then as things progress, begin to merge that operation into current regional operations at the parent regional. Smoother transition and less of a shock to the system. Just a thought.
gns2005

gns2005,

While I'm not involved in any of this, I see this as the potential wild card. If people think that the only upside exists that exists to this deal is for the UsAirways furloughees, wait and see how they'll feel if another carrier is started. Ostensibly, Wolf doesn't have the money to buy the aircraft, so doing something like putting the aircraft on the old Potomic Air or one of the WO's certificate doesn't work for him. With all of the subsidiaries, I assume Mesa's pilot contract is liberal at best when it comes to alter ego operations. What's to stop Ornstein from using the Freedom Air certificate and staffing with UsAirways furloughees? I'm sure that a side letter could be signed with USALPA to deal with CRJ700/900 issues in that case. When the UA/UsAirways merger was still going strong, there was talk of UsAirways giving on of the WO's (PSA I think) DOT certificate to Johnson so that he could start up DcAir without going through the app process. What's to stop Wolf from selling one of the WO's certificates to an airline like TSA with an agreement that they will use it to fly RJ's staffed completely by UsAirways furloughees? Any such deal, will ultimately cause more heartache than the current J4J deal, because every USX carrier will ultimately suffer a big loss of flying due to it. Obviously this doesn't apply to Skywest. They aren't
a USX carrier, and at present don't have much concrete to worry about until they see the outcome of the UA/UALALPA scope clause grievances.

Management doesn't care about any seniority arguments. They will typically give the two parties a chance to work it out amicably, after that they just do what it takes to get their revenue. Look at AA/TWA. Painful as it is, the best thing to do is probably keep negotiating and try to find a common ground. The management at US and USX are out to get their SJ's one way or another. I don't think anyonewants to see "plan B," come into play.

 

[Caveman]

The absolute gall of mainline pilots never ceases to amaze me. They mistakenly believe that the rest of the industry exists soley to improve the conditions at mainline. Every other pilot working anywhere else must abrogate their own careers on the off chance some mainline might throw them a bone and give them a job, someday, maybe. BS. I have a job and it's a good one. Sorry about your furloughs but it isn't my fault you picked a lousy company. I will welcome you at my comnpany after you apply, after you interview, and after you go to the bottom of our seniority list. Anything else is unacceptable.