I haven't stopped laughing yet!!

[Rottweiller]

I thought I had just about heard it all when today our MEC advised us that they turned down an offer (in about a micro second I should think) from USAir.

It appears, not just us I might add, that USAir approached us to use some of our RJ's to do regional flying for them. The kicker? Use our aircraft but staff them with THIER furloughed crews which equals us furloughing as we don't have equipment for some to fly!! They then revamped this to ask if they could put direct Captains in so they could have current PIC.

They say this is a way for them to stay viable and compete with other airlines as they are having difficulties getting RJ's on the property.

Now I tend to believe and support our MEC whole heartedly but has anyone else heard of this? If you ask me this takes some guall even to ask in the first place

 

[reepicheep]

Rottweiller:

I fly for US Airways, and yes our MEC is exploring this concept. Intel. varies widely on how likely it is we'll see it. The general idea is US Airways makes a deal with the regional for X number of SJ's and then our furloughees fly half the new jets. and the regionals' pilots fly the other half. It's known, somewhat cynically, as J4J aka "Jets For Jobs". It is not meeting with much enthusiasm among our furloughees, or the wholly-owned who understandably are hesitant to hitch their star to a fading airline.

 

[gns2005]

They've approached several airlines...

The biggest issue is just as you've stated, they want to forget all about the seniority system and jump right into a CPT slot. If the USAir MEC would approach the regionals with some semblence of respect it might have a fighting chance, but they go in thinking they are doing us a favor by letting us give the USAir furloughees a job until they go back to mainline.

Would the USAir pilots agree to go to the bottom of the seniority list as new hires as long as they can hold their current USAir numbers? That would be the best way to do this, give respect to the current employees without trying to climb over them to get into the left seat, the furloughees have paying flying jobs and are still on the USAir seniority list. What's wrong with that? Why would ANYONE hire a street captin, pay for his type then say "it's OK to leave when they call you back and we'll train more of our guys at our own expense".

That's just me, but I'd sire like to hear what current furloughees or line pilots for USAir think about all this hubub.

Thanks,
gns2005

 

[LearLove]

now you see

Now do you guys see what the Wholly Owned guys have been dealing with for the past 8 or more years. Sure you guys can come here take my job and number while your at it why don't feel up my girlfriend and kick my dog - whatever. Bebe doesn't have a clue.

 

[typhoonpilot]

The jets for jobs deal that is being talked about is a win-win situation for the regionals in question and the furloughed pilots of USAirways. Why ?

See reepicheep's post where he mentions that the USAirways furloughees only fly(staff) half of the new jets at the regional. So who will fly the other half?, the current regional pilots. In this scenario the regional pilots will move up faster and the USAirways furloughees will get jobs until they are recalled. That recall, by the way, could be as long as ten years for the most junior furloughee. ( If USAirways even survives that long ).

Lets take Mesa as an example. Right now they can't get any more code share RJs for use with USAirways because of the 70 aircraft limit. If the deal is signed, lets say they get 40 more over the next few years. 20 of those would be staffed by current/new Mesa pilots and the other 20 by USAirways furloughees. It would seem an aweful lot of Mesa pilots would upgrade because of that deal while captains on the property would get better schedules, bases, etc. When USAirways recalls those furloughees the aircraft remain and there is even more upwards movement by the Mesa pilots.

As for the seniority issue, the majority of the furloughees were hired early 1999 through mid 2000. I imagine that most of the regional captains were hired before that.

I am sorry a deal couldn't be made to have these aircraft flown by the wholly owned subsidiaries, but Wolf just isn't willing to front the money for the airplanes.

Yes, I am a USAirways pilot. At least until I can find a good job elsewhere.

 

[gns2005]

Fine for the company, but it still tries to side step the tried and true seniority issue and there is no provisions for the Express carriers to receive any sort of help should the situation reverse itself or should USAir ever get in a position to begin hiring again.

The situation would still be win-win if the USAir pilots started from the beginning like every other pilot. You guys chose to work for a failing company and many of our guys choose to stay at a functioning regional. Why should one, or many of you, come in as Captain before many of our qualified guys. You start as new hire F/O's like everyone else and this thing flies through everytime and everyone is happy.

I am sorry you guys got furloughed, but honestly, it doesn't make you higher and mightier than any current pilot at another airline, even the regionals. This whole thing would be moot if the USAir pilots agreed to become new hire F/O's and stopped trying to weasle Captain's slots out of the regional. If you'll be there for ten years, you'll be a Captain in turn anyway so what's the problem with waiting your turn?

BTW- I understand that USAir will subsidise your pay to match your current USAir payscale, so who cares if you're F/O at the regional, you're making more than any of our Captain's anyway.

gns2005

 

[typhoonpilot]

GNS 2005

Wow, where do I begin. First you have been given some serious misinformation. "BTW- I understand that USAir will subsidise your pay to match your current USAir payscale, so who cares if you're F/O at the regional, you're making more than any of our Captain's anyway. " That isn't going to happen and as far as I know hasn't even been talked about. The pilots would be paid based on their USAirways date of hire at the Regional pay scale. I.E. a three year USAirways pilot gets 3rd year Mesa pay for whatever position he holds.

About the seniority issue, I know this is a touchy subject. Seniority is everything in our careers. The USAirways pilots are giving up routes and airplanes at the expense of the junior pilots and to the advantage of the Regional airlines. This has been going on for over a decade. During the early 1990s when USAir parked all their F-28s and gave those routes to Henson/Piedmont and other regional carriers there certainly was no uproar from the regional pilots who were upgrading/getting hired while no jobs were given to furloughed USAir pilots. It is the same thing this time, but this time the USAirways MEC is trying to help the junior ( furloughed ) pilots by getting some job guarantees.

How you can view this as " sidestepping seniority " is very one sided. The USAirways pilots are giving up seniority by allowing the regionals to fly these aircraft ! Remember, the purpose of regionals was to be a stepping stone to the major airline career. The more aircarft that are flown at the regional level the fewer major airline jobs will be available. This is an attack against our profession by greedy corporate officers. But I digress. These protocols that are being discussed are in effect a quasi flowthrough. So the seniority is very fair.

Further, as part of the deals being discussed I have heard that if and when USAirways hires again the regionals that sign on to the plan will have a very good preferential hiring deal. Not that I am saying that is worth much, I certainly wouldn't want to get hired by USAirways again, but things could change.

Finally, no one here said that USAirways pilots feel " higher and mightier " than the Regional pilots. The USAirways pilots are just trying to get jobs for their ALPA brothers and sisters who are getting furloughed. It is the first time in a long time that they have acted like a real union.

Typhoonpilot

 

[dondk]

typhoonpilot

I understand both points, but I want to add my .02 here...

Specifically..
"The USAirways pilots are just trying to get jobs for their ALPA brothers and sisters who are getting furloughed. It is the first time in a long time that they have acted like a real union. "

ALPA is for the BIG guys not us regionals. If you look at most scope clause's it is to prevent the growth of a regional. To use Mesa as an example, they now have code share with 3 carriers for RJ's, and that does NOT include there own colors OR Freedom Air. Why is that? Could it be due to the restrictions the Scope clause has on them? They grow by going around the system or clause.

These Scope clauses were put there by ALPA to "protect" the SAME people who now want to come back and take the jobs or aircraft from the same regionals they wanted protection from. Where is the ALPA protection for the regional guys who may get furloughed? This it too one sided, I agree that I would like to see all of the ALPA brothers and sisters gainfully employed, but I am not too sure I would be willing to see that at my expense. or my regional brothers and sisters expense.

To use and adage, they made thier bed and now they must sleep in it...

 

[gns2005]

You make good points typhoon. I understand both sides of the situation and the business side as well. I guess the biggest issue is now the industry is changing and the regionals are becoming a large player in thousands of markets, unfortunately at the expense of the large national and major airlines in some cases. We're slave labor comparitively and businesses enjoy cheap labor and higher yields as long as they can get it.

Anyway, most of us weren't even in the game back when the F28's were retired and that was a USAir decision, not the regionals, even though they benefitted, the major partners drive the market and the flying, so we kind of just do what we're told.

As far as ALPA, I agree that they are trying to help, but I think they are shooting the moon too much and it would be a little more well received should they ask for more traditional job terms. I also agree that at this point the regionals should man up and make their own union with regional interests in mind. Again, another discussion.

Thanks for clarifying the pay issue, we've been having this discussion internally and after a while facts are definitely convaluted.

I guess in final analysis, if USAir MEC wasn't put in a position to try to arrange jobs for their pilots based on poor management decisions from USAir, then things might be different. I respect that they are fighting for you guys, I just think that interests would be better served by approaching the regional partners with a more traditional seniority based solution, such as keeping your numbers at USAir, getting your pay for longevity at the major and going into new hire status like all other new hires.

You would obviously be shown your way towards East Coast RJ ops seeing as most of you will be very well qualified in jet ops

Another option would be to arrange a separate airline operation with the regional partners and staff the planes only with USAir furloughees. Everyone would be in the same boat, seniority would allow you guys to sit as F/O's and CPT's and fly together, then as things progress, begin to merge that operation into current regional operations at the parent regional. Smoother transition and less of a shock to the system. Just a thought.

Again, thanks for the info and good luck on the job hunt.

gns2005

 

[reepicheep]

There has been no mention of making pilot whole at US Airways wages if they fly for the regional.

Most of the furloughees I talk to don't think they're ever going to be recalled by US Airways; the talk is more like when are they filing Ch.11 and how is the inevitable fragmentation going to play out?