I can't flight instruct

[dcramer16]

I will be finishing up my training with ATP Flight School pretty soon and have been thinking about whats next. I DON'T WANT TO FLIGHT INSTRUCT. Not because I'm too good for it, not because the low pay. I am not good at teaching. Some people can do it and some can't. I don't want to be an instructor just for the hours and screw up a bunch of students just so I can get my hours. If I am going to instruct, I want to be a great instructor, and teach, not just log hours. I will be finishing up with something like 150 Multi, 240TT, 90PIC. What are my options as far as getting a job and building up hours to move on to the regionals. I know I can instruct and be moved on to the regionals in a couple months, but how many students will I fail?? I hear jobs with the forest service are good out of training jobs. Does anyone else have any suggestions and/or links to these jobs sites. Thanks

 

[jc3]

You could always dish out another 30 G's for a type rating, but you don't want that label. Unless you have an inside gig somewhere it will be hard to find a time building job that pays well. If it even pays.

 

[thowe21]

dude suck it up and do the time like the rest of us, I thought I was horrible and it turned out to be a great experience, and when you get 1200 TT then apply somewhere

 

[dcramer16]

Like I said, it has nothing to do with me being all high and mighty to be a "lowly" flight instructor. I would love to be a flight instructor to build hours, but only if I feel confident in being a good teacher. I know my stuff, I just have a hard time explaining it. To be a good teacher you have to be good at teaching, I am not a good teacher. That is why I am looking for an alternative. I can get a job as an instructor, but I would feel awful being an instructor that is only there to build hours. I know of a couple instructors that suck at being teachers but do it anyways just to get the hours. I don't want to do that because it isn't fair to the students.

 

[CaptETWes]

With all do respect to the poster above, you don't need 1200TT. Most of the regionals will take you with less than that. Eagle is 500TT/100MEL, for example. Furthermore, even though most airlines post minimums that doesn't mean they have to abide by their own prescribed minimum times. They usually don't these days. Moral of the story, there's nothing wrong with sending resumes to places even though you don't meet their "minimums." And yes, in case you are wondering, I benefitted from this practice with regards to MEL time. Mine advertised 250, I had less than half that. As long as you've got a solid # of MEL hours, I'd say you'll start being marketable to most regionals around 700-800TT. But, the more the merrier. Good luck.

 

[sleddriver77]

If you can't instruct, how do you plan on ever becoming a captain? New FO's are usually gonna need a little help getting the "feel" of a new airplane, even after training and IOE. About the only thing you'd be able to do with that low of total time is pull banners or drop skydivers, and even that may be difficult to secure with a given company's insurance requirements. Give instructing a shot. Instructing can often be a challenge to the instructor: "How can I get this complete idiot (and it'll feel that way sometimes) to understand this simple and obvious (to you) concept??" Believe it or not, by finding ways to convey the concept to a complete amateur, you will better understand it yourself. Go ask a guy who's been flying 135 or 121 for a few years if he remembers the equation for figuring pivotal altitude for eights-on-pylons. Betcha he won't. You lose what you don't use, but the more you've gone over it, (ie, taught it) the longer it'll stick with you. Also, students may inadvertantly find new and exciting ways to potentially wreck the airplane with your sweet cheeks aboard. Keeps you on your toes, helps avoid complacency.

I realize that you stated that you are not "above" instructing, the pay, etc etc. That may or may not be true; people come up with some strange ways of rationalizing things. (As any good CFI knows.) Perhaps you ARE perfectly capable of instructing, but have no confidence in your ability? That lack of confidence is not something you want to take to an airline. Perhaps it is a percieved or real lack of knowledge on your behalf that makes you feel unprepared to instruct? That's gonna shine thru during any airline interview. The interview board may well ask you to describe for them the National Airspace System, the fuel system for whatever you've been flying, or how to read a chart. As you correctly stated, instructing IS the quickest way to the total time required to progress in this field. It WILL make you a more competant pilot, and as long as you put a little effort in to it, you may not be as bad at it as you think you'll be.

Oh yeah..And if it really is just your attitude, nobody'll want to fly with you anyway.

Good luck.

 

[Aerosurfer]

BANNER TOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Fun Flying in a taildragger and quick hours most instructors could only dream of (750 hours in 6 months) Plus it builds great stick and rudder skills!!!

 

[CaptETWes]

oh, and I do agree that instructing is very valuable if you understand that even though you are relatively inexperienced, too, you will always be learning while you teach. I was hesitant at first like you, but after a few flights it started to become fun and the teaching almost became second nature. I only needed to instruct full-time for 1.5 years. My advice is that you try it out and the worst thing is you go do something else...unless ATP makes you sign a contract. In that case, be very careful.

 

[belchfire]

If you don't want to be an instructor you can't be a Captain...especially with the number of places that are hiring low time people with no turbine experience. Trust me, when you get to the left seat you will instruct, weather you like it or not.

You might try to find some kind of aerial survey outfit that operates part 91...banner towing, traffic watch, that kind of stuff.

I never got my CFI either, just didn't want to. Did some of the things that I and others have mentioned.

Got to the left seat in a Jetstream and found out that I was an instructor, at least part time. After a while I got pretty good at passing on what folks needed to know about staying alive in the jball and got good feedback from some of my FO's.

 

[dcramer16]

Ok, this is all great advice. I had an instructor that didn't give a s**t about how much I knew or didn't know, all he cared about was his hours. He hated instructing but did it because there was no other way to build hours. I felt very let down. I just don't want to do that to someone else. If I did instruct I would bust my a$$, but I don't want my lack of teaching skills (not lack of knowlege) to ruin a student. I know my stuff, VERY WELL. I am very confident as a pilot, just not confident as a teacher.

 

[COOPERVANE]

It does take some practice. Your first student will probably not get as much from you as your later ones. But remember, to a student with 5 hours, you are a sky god. Just don't make stuff up if you don't know it. Say "I don't know" and look it up with your student. Follow a syllabus and you'll be fine. I thought I would be terrible also, but turned out to be a pretty good instructor. It was a very rewarding and great learning experience for me.

One of my friends BOUGHT a 172 and hung flyers around lots of airports wanting to split time in it for $40.00/hour. He was swamped with people wanting to fly with him. Since he was an instructor, he logged PIC and the "other" guy logged PIC sole manipulator received. Just like at ATP.

While I was doing endless loops in the pattern, and going to the same 5 airports every day, he was criss-crossing the country, logging real time in the ATC system learning about weather, etc. Then he sold it for more than he bought it for. Not a bad deal. He built all his time that way. If I had the resources, I might consider that track.

Good luck and don't worry. Enjoy whatever you do

 

[indianboy7]

Ok, this is all great advice. I had an instructor that didn't give a s**t about how much I knew or didn't know, all he cared about was his hours. He hated instructing but did it because there was no other way to build hours. I felt very let down. I just don't want to do that to someone else. If I did instruct I would bust my a$$, but I don't want my lack of teaching skills (not lack of knowlege) to ruin a student. I know my stuff, VERY WELL. I am very confident as a pilot, just not confident as a teacher.

My question is how do you know you're not a good teacher????

If you've never taught, then you don't know. Teaching, much like flying and sex is something that's learned over time. It is very common for new instructors to over or under teach their first few students....just the name of the game. I know a few people with the same mindset that you have. They got their instructor's licenses and ended up being some of the best damn instructors i've ever seen.

I say give it a shot. You may be good at it. If you get tired of it, or are really bad enough to get your license yanked (which takes a lot, by the way), then you have many other roads to explore. Instructing is probably one of the easiest entry level flying jobs to get into with very little experience.

If you're as motivated as you say you are, then I doubt you'll have a problem.

Oh, and what sleddriver said about captains being instructors is very very true. Instructing teaches patience and observance. I have flown with a couple of captains that never instructed. They possessed neither of these traits. It really sucked, because instead of treating me like a professional pilot who knows what I'm doing, these captains spent all their time ordering me around because they weren't familiar with my flying techniques. They weren't comfortable enough in their own skin to relinquish a little bit of control and see what happens.

I say get your instructor licenses and give it a shot....the banner tow season's almost up anyway. :beer: imp:

 

[CaptETWes]

COOPERVANE, you should be flogged for that avatar. Is that your flavor? It's so horrible I can't...stop...looking...at...it.

Back on topic, definitely admit when you don't know something. It shows most students it's OK even when you've got lots of hours that they shouldn't be afraid to look things up. That reiterates my statement that you'll learn as much from your students as they will from you. I wouldn't change my instructing time for any other route.

Cheers

 

[COOPERVANE]

You don't like my girlfriend?

 

[CaptETWes]

You don't like my girlfriend?

of course I do...there's plenty to go around imp:

 

[DrProc]

When I was an F/O I could almost always tell if the captain had spent any time as an instructor. It'll help you out immensely in the left seat.

 

[hawkerflyer]

I DON'T WANT TO FLIGHT INSTRUCT.

NOBODY EVER WANTS TO FLIGHT INSTRUCT. Don't use the excuse "I'm not good at it" either. Sounds like yet another example of how everyone wants to be cut loose to fly commercial with 200 hours. If you can wing that rare Citation or King Air right seat gig, more power to you. But just suck it up and make the most of the exposure. I'd hire a low-time flight instructor over a low-time gear swinger anyday. They're usually more confident and also display a certain level of maturity.

 

[Moustache]

BANNER TOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Fun Flying in a taildragger and quick hours most instructors could only dream of (750 hours in 6 months) Plus it builds great stick and rudder skills!!!

And quite boring, you will never want to fly after that.

 

[kingairyahoo]

look...some people are NOT cut out to teach...period...end of story.

kuddos to this guy for realizing that and not wanting to dump a bunch of mediocre students in the system with just enough knowledge to pass the dam test.

think back to your own training, ill guarantee you knew (probably personally) of at LEAST one CFI who we all knew shouldnt have been there. ill also guarantee you at least KNEW of one CFI who thouroughly enjoyed his (or her) job...and probably learned more from the latter in 5 minutes than in 3 days with the former.

i dont think we talking about the type of person that thinks of themselves "bigger" than instructing. this is merely knowing yourself well enough to realize you arent cut out for it.

dont get me wrong, IT AINT EASY!!! there will be many roadblocks along the way, many jobs denied because you dont have the CFI rating. many chances for advancement denied because you dont have a CFI.

but, it can be done...trust me

 

[dcramer16]

Thanks KINGAIRYAHOO, it seems like you're the only one that knows what I'm talking about. Thanks everyone else too. I didn't know it was common for new instructors to feel "inadequate". After reading all your responses, I think it would be a good idea to try it out and see if I get better at it. What the heck, if I'm not good at it, then I can look into other options. If I get better at it, all the better. But what about when I'm trying it out? While I am finding out I'm not good at teaching, am I also messing up another student? "Sorry you didn't pass your checkrides, at least now I know I'm not a good instuctor. Just buy more time and do it all over again."

 

[pgcfii2002]

It does take some practice. Your first student will probably not get as much from you as your later ones. But remember, to a
One of my friends BOUGHT a 172 and hung flyers around lots of airports wanting to split time in it for $40.00/hour. He was swamped with people wanting to fly with him. Since he was an instructor, he logged PIC and the "other" guy logged PIC sole manipulator received. Just like at ATP.


Is that legal????

 

[Turkey Shoot]

Thanks KINGAIRYAHOO, it seems like you're the only one that knows what I'm talking about. Thanks everyone else too. I didn't know it was common for new instructors to feel "inadequate". After reading all your responses, I think it would be a good idea to try it out and see if I get better at it. What the heck, if I'm not good at it, then I can look into other options. If I get better at it, all the better. But what about when I'm trying it out? While I am finding out I'm not good at teaching, am I also messing up another student? "Sorry you didn't pass your checkrides, at least now I know I'm not a good instuctor. Just buy more time and do it all over again."

I would have to believe that pretty much sums it up for all of us. The first 100 hours of dual given are as much a learning experience for you as your student.

As far as being a good instructor, remember back to those instructors you didn't get along with, don't be like them. Make sure you know your stuff, don't be afraid to drag out the FAR/AIM in front of your students. It makes you human and not above them in their eyes.

Not many us wanted to instruct, but I gave quite a few hours of dual and signed off a bunch for check rides. Had a 93% pass rate and and more than a few students request me. I hated instructing but I put 110% into it. As far as I am concerned, it resulted in me learning much of myself and of others. One of the greatest things I learned was, everybody makes the same mistakes over and over. As much as they push CRM in airlines now, you know dang good and well, if those guys did it and got killed, I am just as likely to if I don't take this stuff to heart. very good life lesson that applies everywhere to include marriage. *cough*

Good luck on the instruction, it can be very rewarding overall to yourself in knowledge of aviation and more importantly, people.

 

[ERJFO]

Ok, this is all great advice. I had an instructor that didn't give a s**t about how much I knew or didn't know, all he cared about was his hours. He hated instructing but did it because there was no other way to build hours. I felt very let down. I just don't want to do that to someone else. If I did instruct I would bust my a$$, but I don't want my lack of teaching skills (not lack of knowlege) to ruin a student. I know my stuff, VERY WELL. I am very confident as a pilot, just not confident as a teacher.

Thats how I was... I was and am a good pilot but I hated instructing and just did it to build time. Costed my students tons of extra time and money. I figured out the worse they did the more we flew. Ditch your morals.

(Kidding)

Everyone feels like you do at first. The Forest Service pilots that spot fires and do ecological observations normally have 1000+ hours... More than most RJ FO's atleast. Banner towing is a brainless job and recruiters know it. Unless you can get hooked up with a charter gig or cloud seading operation there really isn't a good job out there for you with 250ish hours besides instructing.

 

[dcramer16]

Thats how I was... I was and am a good pilot but I hated instructing and just did it to build time. Costed my students tons of extra time and money. I figured out the worse they did the more we flew. Ditch your morals.

Thats terrible. No seriously, thats really bad. You sound like my last instuctor.

 

[dcramer16]

Nevermind. Just read the rest of your post and saw you were kidding.

 

[indianboy7]

Thanks KINGAIRYAHOO, it seems like you're the only one that knows what I'm talking about. Thanks everyone else too. I didn't know it was common for new instructors to feel "inadequate". After reading all your responses, I think it would be a good idea to try it out and see if I get better at it. What the heck, if I'm not good at it, then I can look into other options. If I get better at it, all the better. But what about when I'm trying it out? While I am finding out I'm not good at teaching, am I also messing up another student? "Sorry you didn't pass your checkrides, at least now I know I'm not a good instuctor. Just buy more time and do it all over again."

dcramer...it sounds like you're dead set on failing as an instructor...so I have changed my opinion. Go fly traffic watch, tow banners, or find a gig flying circles around the grand canyon. An instructor is only as good as he wants to be and it doesn't sound like you want to be a good instructor. Good luck with your endeavors......imp:

 

[Cardinal]

If you've never taught, then you don't know..... I know a few people with the same mindset that you have. They got their instructor's licenses and ended up being some of the best dang instructors i've ever seen.

Oh, and what sleddriver said about captains being instructors is very very true. Instructing teaches patience and observance. I have flown with a couple of captains that never instructed. They possessed neither of these traits. It really sucked, because instead of treating me like a professional pilot who knows what I'm doing, these captains spent all their time ordering me around because they weren't familiar with my flying techniques. They weren't comfortable enough in their own skin to relinquish a little bit of control and see what happens.

A big +1

I was a very reluctant CFI, FO that saw the good bad and ugly, airline captain, and line check airman. I don't like to talk much, so I extrapolated that that made me a bad instructor. Groaned most mornings as I rolled out of bed to go do 5 more intro flights and explain VORs. But I gave it my all, made some (read: bunches of) mistakes but me and my students learned a heck of alot. Had more than a few students comment on the quality/enjoyment of instruction. Every time I heard that I was blown away, cause I felt like I was struggling big time, and not meeting my ideal of the perfect instructor. Apply and devote yourself to it, and you'll be amazed with the results. Incidentally, a few years down the road I've discovered that nearly my whole life revolves around teaching, whether flying the line, doing IOE, helping FOs prepare for upgrade, working with kids at church, running a study group, teaching the girlfriend to drive a clutch, you name it. It'll make you a better person, as well as a better pilot.

 

[kingairyahoo]

i can agree with this...

Instructing teaches patience and observance.

...but not this...

I have flown with a couple of captains that never instructed. They possessed neither of these traits. It really sucked, because instead of treating me like a professional pilot who knows what I'm doing, these captains spent all their time ordering me around because they weren't familiar with my flying techniques. They weren't comfortable enough in their own skin to relinquish a little bit of control and see what happens.

...all of those traits can be attributed to a big ego'd ex-CFI just as easily

 

[ceo_of_the_sofa]

I don't know. For me it was more of a drive to be in the right seat, because my first instructor (a fat slob in his mid-30s) just didn't give a sheet. And at the same time he was getting paid for flying. Imagine that!

If the Feds think you can teach, you can teach. Two, three weeks later it will come to you. That, or you'll never fly again.

Try it, you've got this far.

 

[GreatView]

Teaching students will teach you so much about flying and give you great confidence in your flying skills (because you will have to take over the controls on a few occasions). This will be the same when you become a captain of a larger a/c with new hire f/o's. Many need help when the first start......

Don't say that you "won't" or "can't" do something without first trying. You are truly limiting your career potential right from the start and you don't even have 300 hours. Many of us didn't want to begin where we did, but we did because we HAD to. When I began flying there were NO flying jobs except flight instructing (back in 91') unless you had an immense number of hours. Now, all you need are 500+ Total and you can get on with a regional. Many of us would have given our newborns for that opportunity back then (just kidding...but not really).

Really....I think you are short-changing yourself and setting your "bar" really low for the future if you are unwilling flight instruct now this early in the game. Just think, you'll gain valuable experience instructing and get-paid to build your hours. As a matter of fact, you'll get the best quality instructing hours right there at ATP since you will be flying outside of the traffic pattern. Take advantage of their program and get your regional minimums in 1 year or less and you won't regret it.....

Best of luck to you bro....