Hypothetical question for ASA pilots

[viper548]

Viper,

Actually there are quite a few Skywest pilots who favor DOH. Maybe not among the recently hired, but there are a lot. It seems like you have your carreer at SKW all mapped out, but a reality check might be in order. Everyone is going to have to give a little. Another thing to keep in mind is that Skywest Airlines did not buy ASA, Skywest INC. the holding company did. A small but extremely important difference.

Also what's floating around the crew lounges and what SGU has in mind are completely different scenarios.

Take care.

Pretty much everyone on the SAPA website and the captains I fly with think percentile is the way to go. I know everyone will have to give a little. Personally, I'd like to keep the groups seperate until necessary. When integration becomes necessary, what I think is fair is percentile with either 2 year fences or drop the fences for 50 ASA pilots/month. I'm not looking for a windfall, but on the other hand, I don't think I should lose senority either.

 

[viper548]

The MIL pilots here have learned the hard way.

What happens if you tell them you can't work one of your days off because you have MIL duty? How can they deduct time from your paycheck if you're unavailable for JR man? Is that for lineholders as well as reserve?

I usually re-schedule my reserve days to my days off so I don't have to miss any of my trips.

 

[sweptback]

I believe a percentile integration would be fair to all pilots. DOH would favor ASA because SkyWest has had a very recent hiring boom. I have 400 below me, and I've been at SkyWest for 9 months. I figure I'm at about the 81st percentile. I don't think ASA has hired as much recently, so it would be a greater proportion of ASA pilots going in front of me instead of behind me. What I care the most about is getting the base I want as an FO, upgrade time and getting the base I want as a Capt. Fences help there, but they wouldn't stay up forever.

I don't know anyone at SKW that favors DOH.

There have been pilots at ASA that have been employed for 2-2.5 years that would be about the 75-80th percentile. It would sure suck for them to be junior to guys still on probation.

A percentage integration, while good for SkyWest, would unfairly punish FOs due to the fact that ASA hired only one class for about 15 months in 2003-early 2004. It would also punish relatively new FOs that should have a lot more under them, but don't due to people no-showing class and leaving after being here just a few months.

I am completely for a fence system. While I would enjoy relocating to one of the SKYW bases, I do not believe I am entitled to it nor should I displace a SKYW pilot in any way. Even after the fences go down there still probably should be some sort of favoritism to a SKYW pilot for a UA base, unless ASA starts flying for UA too. I can't imagine any SKYW pilot actually wants ATL, so I'm sorry we don't have much to offer in that regard.

That being said, a percentage-based integration would hurt the current captains at ASA very little, as they would keep their seat in any integration, so I fully expect DOH to not happen based on that fact. Yes, a DOH integration would be best, but a percentage integration would appease the captain side enough I believe.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I believe a percentile integration would be fair to all pilots. DOH would favor ASA because SkyWest has had a very recent hiring boom. I have 400 below me, and I've been at SkyWest for 9 months.

I don't know anyone at SKW that favors DOH.

Well yippiddity doo. You and your 9 months, which came at the expense of ASA's growth in our DFW hub, isn't going to water many eyes at ASA. Very candidly you are not even off your probationary year and you want to jump ahead of a couple hundred pilots at ASA - lots of luck.

Career expectations are the same, if not better at ASA. We had more 70 seaters and the strategically important hub that SkyWest wanted to ensure its survival. Your hope for a windfall as a result of a happy accident will not happen. The process is designed so that windfalls don't happen.

You might as well get back in line scooter.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Viper,

Actually there are quite a few Skywest pilots who favor DOH.

Take care.

Yep - Skywest has been around longer. So be it.

 

[viper548]

Well yippiddity doo. You and your 9 months, which came at the expense of ASA's growth in our DFW hub, isn't going to water many eyes at ASA. Very candidly you are not even off your probationary year and you want to jump ahead of a couple hundred pilots at ASA - lots of luck.

Career expectations are the same, if not better at ASA. We had more 70 seaters and the strategically important hub that SkyWest wanted to ensure its survival. Your hope for a windfall as a result of a happy accident will not happen. The process is designed so that windfalls don't happen.

You might as well get back in line scooter.

Our recent growth is attributed to UAL flying. Career expetctations at ASA may be better for DL flying, but certainly not for UA flying. I fly the UA system about 80% of the time. I'm not looking to JUMP in front of a couple hundered pilots at ASA. I'm hoping to not be on reserve again.
ASA has done a bit of hiring recently too. I don't think I would be negatively affected by DOH integration, but a lot of our JR captains would.

 

[Willy21]

Like people have said before, we can all come up with what we think is fair, but when it comes down to it we will do what somebody in the G.O. tells us to. I hate that but I fear that it will happen that way. It is out of our hands.

 

[CF34-3B1]

Our recent growth is attributed to UAL flying. Career expetctations at ASA may be better for DL flying, but certainly not for UA flying. I fly the UA system about 80% of the time. I'm not looking to JUMP in front of a couple hundered pilots at ASA. I'm hoping to not be on reserve again.
ASA has done a bit of hiring recently too. I don't think I would be negatively affected by DOH integration, but a lot of our JR captains would.

There was plenty of SKYW growth over the past year or 2 at DFW.

Some of us were actually here to see it.

 

[homerjdispatch]

And wasnt there some growth for ASA in SLC? SKYW is no longer in DFW, but ASA is still in SLC...Who got more growth in the end?

 

[Texx]

And wasnt there some growth for ASA in SLC? SKYW is no longer in DFW, but ASA is still in SLC...Who got more growth in the end?

Since you seem to sit behind a desk, ASA didn't expand into SLC, they relocated part, a very small part, of their opertaion to SLC.

 

[Tomct]

Yeah Homer, you better check those facts. If we opened up SLC with the resourses that we had in DFW, then you could say that! But right now, don't even try it! We had about 30-40 aircraft based in big D and I think that we have a Whopping 17 based in SLC. BIG DIFFERENCE!! I hope that we grow to that size in SLC, but who knows.

CF- Aren't you going to ATLAS?

Viper- Well man, I hate to say it, but that is why SENORITY has it's priorities! Nine months is not a lot, but someday it will put you further down the road. Good Luck

Twotter- I might have to agree with you on that. Percentage wise, I don't think that it would be so bad, so long as DOH would rule your travel bennies, Vacation....etc. Who Knows!

 

[No.W.]

Percentage integration seems fair for all involved. I chose to come to SkyWest and by the luck of the draw I am at the purchasing company. I have been here almost three years and don't think it would be unfair to expect to hold the same seniority I do now relative the rest of the group. My QOL is at a certain level, it is NOT an unfair expectation to hope it remains that way. I've already been furloughed once from another carrier...I have a LITTLE taste of how rough things can get in this industry. Any integration is going to tough, but, come on, a percentage integration that results in the same relative seniority for all seems fair. I am not asking for an INCREASE in my seniority, I am just asking for assurances that my QOL will remain about the same. I am NOT some brand-spanking new FO...and have been at SkyWest long enough to have some control over my schedule, that means a whole lot to me. It is unfair to ask me to give that up, just as it would be unfair to ask an ASA pilot to give up the same kind of control over there. A percentage integration would not perfectly avoid these kinds of "concessions" but it still seems the best to me. Again, I am not looking to abrogate seniority, I am just looking for the fairest deal possible.

 

[Willy21]

With the way things are growing why not DOH with a 5 year fence. That would give everybody that is at either company as of Sep 05 a chace to make it to the left seat or at worst case be a very senior FO. I also want to point out that Skywest Inc. not Skywest did the purchasing. I know that is splitting hairs but it might make a difference.

 

[C.Warrior]

When everyone feels screwed, you will know that it has been a successful merge. I think the ASA/SkyWest guys not get ahead of yourself. Comair & ASA never merged, and that would have been a lot easier to do than the current situation.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Like people have said before, we can all come up with what we think is fair, but when it comes down to it we will do what somebody in the G.O. tells us to.

Wow, on what planet?

We will do what a Federal Mediator, or a Judge tells us. The G.O. does not decide seniority integration issues.

And I don't know that I would try to shove some ratio integration up the butts of a bunch of ASA pilots that are already spun up to strike. We are ready to strike over the way we are treated currently. If we become junior to some 2 year SkyWest Captain you just watch how fast we shut this place down.

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

Wow, on what planet?

We will do what a Federal Mediator, or a Judge tells us. The G.O. does not decide seniority integration issues.

And I don't know that I would try to shove some ratio integration up the butts of a bunch of ASA pilots that are already spun up to strike. We are ready to strike over the way we are treated currently. If we become junior to some 2 year SkyWest Captain you just watch how fast we shut this place down.

Better go look at the book again. It is up to the carrier to honor the new list. ALPA will compel them using all available means. BTW, does everybody see the real fins behind the fins? This IS the RJDC. Can't help but be

glad to be gone

 

[viper548]

Willy, I agree a 5 year fence would work for 95% of the pilots. There are some trying to get into SAN and SBA that have to wait for people to die before they can get in.

 

[Palerider957]

Wow, on what planet?

We will do what a Federal Mediator, or a Judge tells us. The G.O. does not decide seniority integration issues.

And I don't know that I would try to shove some ratio integration up the butts of a bunch of ASA pilots that are already spun up to strike. We are ready to strike over the way we are treated currently. If we become junior to some 2 year SkyWest Captain you just watch how fast we shut this place down.

Correct! "And the streets will floooooowwww with the blood of non-believers!!!" (Beavis).

 

[Tomct]

Stay on target.....STAY on target!

 

[No.W.]

That kind of rhetoric gets us no where, fins. I understand your frustration, I really do. It is true that ASA is "spun up to strike". I like the idea of a 5 year fence...that would work for me personally. I would still prefer the percentage integration. Threatening to "shut this place down" while not an empty threat, is also not an effective bargaining tactic. I have been there, I know how ed off we can get when things are not going out way. However, if it really comes down to it, do you want to make this a war? Why can't we just negotiate an agreement that evenly benefits, and in some ways screws both sides. I don't have unrealistic expectations, I know it some way I am going to get screwed, that is unavoidable. However, I am still going to push for what I desire in a decent, professional way, devoid of hostile threats. We all know you guys could strike, you don't have to remind us with that kind of "FU" rhetoric.

N

 

[~~~^~~~]

That kind of rhetoric gets us no where, fins.

..... you don't have to remind us with that kind of "FU" rhetoric.

N

It isn't rhetoric. If you were to bump ASA's 6 and 7 year employees down to the status of SkyWest's 24 month employees I know that most simply would not show up for work the next day. Most of ASA's 6 year employees already have contingency plans, or another job, lined up. For us, walking away from the left seat, a schedule and 6 years is difficult. Walking away from a loss of more than half your years of service is easy, in fact it is a sign of intelligence. For people like me, who spent 36 months on reserve, that was hard time and I will never walk away from that time in service, nor should anyone have to.

Argueably - ASA, SkyWest and Comair already act as operationally integrated carriers - at least to the extent that Delta maintains operational control over where we fly, what and when. So you guys are saying that DOH does not make sense when your filling up your airplane at our gate and vice versa?

Mergers are not about windfalls. Read up on some mergers:

Republic - Hughes Airwest
Northwest - Republic
Alaska - Jet America
Seaboard - Flying Tigers
Federal Express - Flying Tigers
Braniff - Panagra
Allegheny - Lake Central
Allegheny - Mohawk
US Airways - Shuttle

Find me a single merger where the G.O. decided seniority integration issues. That is not how the process works.

Read up on what Arbitrators like Richard Bloch and George Nicolau have written in reaching their decisions. Date of Hire is the most relevant fact.

ALPA has more time negotiating in front of Federal Arbitrators than most of us have total flight time. If you think that an ad hoc merger committee is going to succeed in stripping an ALPA unit of 80% of its seniority, it isn't going to happen.

We need to merge to avoid whipsaw and threats of "replacement." But, put up a 40 year fence if you want. I don't want your airplanes, or your flying. But candidly I'm offended at some of the junior SkyWest guys who think that they can pillage the life raft that SkyWest just bought.

Ironically, Fins is holding up his can of "no shark" and ready to repel all boarders.

~~~^~~~

 

[michael707767]

Well yippiddity doo. You and your 9 months, which came at the expense of ASA's growth in our DFW hub, isn't going to water many eyes at ASA. Very candidly you are not even off your probationary year and you want to jump ahead of a couple hundred pilots at ASA - lots of luck.

hmm, and your growth at ASA did not come at the expense of Delta pilots at the DFW and ATL hubs?

 

[~~~^~~~]

hmm, and your growth at ASA did not come at the expense of Delta pilots at the DFW and ATL hubs?

Some probably did. Why did the Delta pilots vote for it? Why didn't they put all the flying on one list?

If I were a Delta pilot, I would have stapled the ASA / Comair guys and built a fence to keep them at their current cost structure. All three MECs would have agreed and the NMB would have stamped it. Delta would have been able to build a rational fleet plan instead of being forced by mainline scope to buy a bunch of 50 seat jets. 70 seaters pull 40% more revenue with around 15% more costs.

Delta still needs the rational fleet plan and will get it by running right through your swiss cheese scope section, in bankruptcy, or with the agreement of the Delta pilots (the DAL pilot group ratified the other changes, probably will these too.)

Certainly I'm not gloating. My buddies got slam dunked at the 2000 ALPA Board of Director's meeting by the Delta MEC. Ironically, had we gotten what we wanted, there would be at least another 4,000 Delta pilots, no one would have been furloughed and Delta would have the right airplane in its' fleet. I wish we had a healthy mainline - like a rising tide raises all boats.

~~~^~~~

 

[410dude]

Some probably did. Why did the Delta pilots vote for it? Why didn't they put all the flying on one list?

Because you are a COMMUTER PILOT and they are a MAJOR AIRLINE PILOT!

 

[michael707767]

If I were a Delta pilot, I would have stapled the ASA / Comair guys and built a fence to keep them at their current cost structure. All three MECs would have agreed and the NMB would have stamped it. Delta would have been able to build a rational fleet plan instead of being forced by mainline scope to buy a bunch of 50 seat jets. 70 seaters pull 40% more revenue with around 15% more costs.

Oh yeah, and the MECs of CMR and ASA would have accepted a staple. You are dreaming.

Incedently, what makes you think we still would not have had scope problems had ASA and CMR been stapled to DALs list? That does not change scope. Delta would have still been allowed to outsource flying to Skywest, for example. I don't think there is anything we could have given up to get Delta to change the scope to say all flying done by the pilots of the combined DAL/ASA/CMR list.

The 50 seater is a dog. It will be replaced by 70 seaters. I have no doubt the number of 70 seaters is going to go up.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Because you are a COMMUTER PILOT and they are a MAJOR AIRLINE PILOT!

Ok, how do you define COMMUTER and MAJOR AIRLINE PILOTS? Where is the line?

1. E120
2. CRJ200
3. ATR72
4. CRJ700
5. E170
6. E190
7. B717
8. B737
9. Narrowbody
10. Heavy

Does the line stay in one place, or does it move around based on someone's opinion? If so, who's opinion?

I thought we were flying the same passengers with the same brand and tickets under the same operational control. Its a phony distinction which serves no purpose than to lower our profession.

If you ever wonder why Commuter Pilots replace Mainline Pilots it is because Mainline Pilots define a lower class of pilot, then agree to deals to outsource flying to them.

 

[410dude]

Ok, how do you define COMMUTER and MAJOR AIRLINE PILOTS? Where is the line?

1. E120
2. CRJ200
3. ATR72
4. CRJ700
5. E170
6. E190
7. B717
8. B737
9. Narrowbody
10. Heavy

Does the line stay in one place, or does it move around based on someone's opinion? If so, who's opinion?

I thought we were flying the same passengers with the same brand and tickets under the same operational control. Its a phony distinction which serves no purpose than to lower our profession.

If you ever wonder why Commuter Pilots replace Mainline Pilots it is because Mainline Pilots define a lower class of pilot, then agree to deals to outsource flying to them.

It's because commuter pilots undercut and backstab mainline pilots due to commuter pilots having SJS.

 

[PCL_128]

hmm, and your growth at ASA did not come at the expense of Delta pilots at the DFW and ATL hubs?

Big difference. ASA's growth was a result of DAL scope that allowed that growth. You voted for a contract that allowed it, so don't complain about the results. On the other hand, ASA pilots and their CBA does not have any control over the DL code, so they had no choice in losing flying to SKYW.

 

[No.W.]

Hey Fins,
I guess I didn't make myself clear, I am not looking for windfall, I am only looking to maintain my QOL at its current level. That includes the same general upgrade time, the same general schedule quality, etc. I am currently SLC based, as there are a few ASA pilots also based in SLC, I am not sure any kind of fence would work to help me maintain my schedule where its at right now...this is the primary reason I have chosen to bypass upgrade and enjoy a little relative seniority as an FO. I want that to continue to be a viable choice. I see pure DOH as a downer for me. Fences may work, I haven't seen any concrete proposals yet, so you gotta humor me on that one. I am sensitive to the "FU" rhetoric right now, not just from you, so I didn't mean to single you out. I am just getting tired of it. It can be assumed we are all frustrated. It can also be assumed that we all know a merger is NEVER a pleasant thing. My point is, let's end the rhetoric and talking down to each-other, and do something PRODUCTIVE; Like get off these freaking boards

As far as your guys walking away if they get screwed in this process, you're right, that would be valid. I don't think you guys are going to get screwed that bad, though. I expect some aspect of my life will be set-back, you should expect the same. I have already experienced one furlough, it cost me lots of money and was a very stressful time. I'm geared up for more. You CAN'T fault me, however, for WANTING to maintain my QOL. I would be offended if you did. I've put in some time here as well, and paid some dues as well. We all have our stories. We all chose this industry. I have set my expectations accordingly. I'll repeat it again, status quo for QOL. That is my simple expectation/desire.
N

 

[michael707767]

Big difference. ASA's growth was a result of DAL scope that allowed that growth. You voted for a contract that allowed it, so don't complain about the results. On the other hand, ASA pilots and their CBA does not have any control over the DL code, so they had no choice in losing flying to SKYW.

did I complain? No, I fully realize we did it to ourselves. But, you guys have to realize that when you go to work for a company who's sole purpose is to provide a service for another company, you will never have control over your destiny.