HS-125 Pay

[olde english800]

Anyone want to chime in with a reasonable response: looking to upgrade in a Hawker 800 XP with a Fortune 230 company that operates a managed flight department. What kind of pay should I negotiate? Can someone PM me NBAA number or other salary survey numbers? Thanks!

 

[HawkerF/O]

Anyone want to chime in with a reasonable response: looking to upgrade in a Hawker 800 XP with a Fortune 230 company that operates a managed flight department. What kind of pay should I negotiate? Can someone PM me NBAA number or other salary survey numbers? Thanks!

If you are a new PIC, 60K min. and just for 6 months, year at the most. 75K would be a pretty fair # flying 91 and 135. What you are going to have working against you is if the Boss talks to the Mgmt company and asks what pilots are getting paid. They'll low ball him with 135 pay figures and you'll be looking greedy. Now, you are just flying 200 hours a year and have a free schedule when not working, no office duties, etc, I think 60K would be fair.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

60K sounds about 30K+ low for a Hawker 800 captain.

I would not suggest that "first year lower pay" thing to get in the door. Too many pilots do that. Its called Low Balling yourself. Nobody is going to magically give you a 30% pay raise after a year...hence the initial magic wears off and you are a grumpy underpaid charter pilot. congratulations.

4 years ago I checked out an 800XP PIC job in the NJ area. 135 managed 2 pilot aircraft, no Hawker experience here and the initial offer was 80K - and that was considered low. I know the NJ/NY area is pricy but 60K is dog$hit PIC money no matter where you are. Dont even think about it.

 

[HawkerF/O]

That's fair. If you are talking aboot working on either coast, there is going to be a premimun for the cost of living. But I feel that if you are talking aobut doing this out of Omaha, NE 60K off the bat is decent money. Walking in the door with 80K demands outside either coast and I think you'll be looking for work for a long time.

60K sounds about 30K+ low for a Hawker 800 captain.

I would not suggest that "first year lower pay" thing to get in the door. Too many pilots do that. Its called Low Balling yourself. Nobody is going to magically give you a 30% pay raise after a year...hence the initial magic wears off and you are a grumpy underpaid charter pilot. congratulations.

4 years ago I checked out an 800XP PIC job in the NJ area. 135 managed 2 pilot aircraft, no Hawker experience here and the initial offer was 80K - and that was considered low. I know the NJ/NY area is pricy but 60K is dog$hit money no matter where you are. Dont even think about it.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

That's fair. If you are talking aboot working on either coast, there is going to be a premimun for the cost of living. But I feel that if you are talking aobut doing this out of Omaha, NE 60K off the bat is decent money. Walking in the door with 80K demands outside either coast and I think you'll be looking for work for a long time.

All depends on how much you think you're worth I guess?

Walk in and lowball the job, you will get it every time at the average dirtbag outfit.

I will take my chances and go high.

80K for an 800XP PIC is certainly not asking a lot no matter where you live.....

this isn't Netjets were talking about is it?

 

[135fr8r]

I'm with a Fortune 300 Company(who is making money out the ass) who flies all part 91. We are a midsize flight dept, and all pilots average 550-600 hrs. per year. I have been with this company for 2 years, and am at 60K. At the time I took the job, I needed work in a bad way, but I am now looking elsewhere.

 

[hawkercpt]

It really depends on what part of the country and how much (135/91) flying you'll be doing. $60k is low for an XP PIC anywhere.

 

[witchdoctor]

PIC no less than 90K unless you are in NJ or NY or CA, anything less than that and you are cheating yourself.

 

[English]

60k? You gotta be kidding! 135 citation drivers make more than that!

 

[HawkerF/O]

There is a large difference in what you think you are worth and what your employer thinks you are worth. I don't know where these 85 and 90K figures are coming from, but the way you guys talk it's the norm through out the country and that is just not the case. As previously mentioned, both coasts you could find 90K, but in the middle of the country Kansas, a just upgrading new Captain is not having the kind of $ thrown at him, especially 135.

 

[HMR]

$60K? Are you kidding?

Hawker F/O- No offense, but you might be a little (okay, ALOT) underpaid.

I know of at least two companies in the midwest who pay new-hire, mid-size jet (Astra) captains $95-100K (plus bennies) to start. I was able to verify the payscale recently when one of them offered me a job.

$60K for mid-size PIC is bad anywhere.

Nobody is going to magically give you a 30% pay raise after a year...hence the initial magic wears off and you are a grumpy underpaid charter pilot. congratulations.

Been there, still have the tie and epaulettes in a box somewhere.

 

[Lead Sled]

When it comes to salaries, you are worth whatever you negotiate. Very few employers will tell you that you're not asking for enough. EVERY job I've ever had (except for that one with a major) I've negotiated my starting pay up from what was offered. Do your homework, find out what the true numbers really are, and go for it. In our department's case we collected 4 or 5 different surveys and made the appropriate adjustments for location and had a very logical presentation. Result? A couple of even happier pilots. Asking for a salary number from a website isn't going to cut it.

'Sled

 

[Gulfstream 200]

There is a large difference in what you think you are worth and what your employer thinks you are worth. I don't know where these 85 and 90K figures are coming from, but the way you guys talk it's the norm through out the country and that is just not the case. As previously mentioned, both coasts you could find 90K, but in the middle of the country Kansas, a just upgrading new Captain is not having the kind of $ thrown at him, especially 135.

I agree, you're out of the loop or just very desperate to stay exactly where you are and are afraid to ask for more and not get the position. If thats worth it, then great...

but 60K for an 800XP PIC is WAY WAY low. no matter where the job is. King Air 200 guys can make that, if not more.

And whats the difference between a "new" PIC and another? We are talking PICs, not the BS "co-captain" thing right? Old or New, PICs have the responsibility and sign for the aircraft. I hope that "new so less money" thing wasn't thrown at you when you interviewed

 

[icefr8dawg]

FO Pay?

What do you guys thing proper FO pay should be east/west coast? 40-45K + bennies?

 

[CapnVegetto]

Guys, I'm with Hawker F/O on this one. You go to most folks in places like AL, GA, west TX, etc. demanding 95 or 100K a year to fly a Hawker, you're going to get laughed at. 95K or 100K is very realistic in NY, DC or CA because of the cost of living. But not in somewhere like Montgomery, AL. A $250,000 house in MGM is 3 or 4 bdroms in a NICE part of town whereas a $250,000 house in San Diego is a shack in the ghetto. Believe it or not, COL and area of the country DOES determine what you make. I don't make $70K or even $60K flying a CE-500. So I'm underpaid? Well, I've got a 3 BR house on a golf course, a country club membership, a car that's paid for, clothes on my back, food on my table, and a pretty kicka$$ surround sound system. I think I'm doin' pretty dam-n alright personally. But a lot of folks will say I'm underpaid. Could I stand to be making more? Yup. Will I be looking to make more? Yup. My boss can either give me raises when due, or out go the resumes. But at the same time, I can't be demanding something ridiculous, because then I'm no different from the management scumbags that the airline guys villify.

I can always look to make more money, but all I want is to be fair, for myself and my employer. It's called integrity people. If you're getting a job in Los Angeles or NYC, then you dam-n well better negotiate $90K or $100K up there because that's what it's going to take to pay the bills. If you find someone that's willing to pay you $100K to fly a Hawker, then hell yeah.....more power to ya. But if you walk around DEMANDING things like that in parts of the country where it's not necessary to live comfortably, then you're going to be looking for a job for a long time.

 

[CapnVegetto]

What do you guys thing proper FO pay should be east/west coast? 40-45K + bennies?

Got a buddy that was just hired with 1800 hours, no time in type, starting at $45K a year. Sent to initial training. At 6 month recurrent, he gets a type and pay goes to $50K.

 

[matchthehatch]

Guys, I'm with Hawker F/O on this one. You go to most folks in places like AL, GA, west TX, etc. demanding 95 or 100K a year to fly a Hawker, you're going to get laughed at. 95K or 100K is very realistic in NY, DC or CA because of the cost of living. But not in somewhere like Montgomery, AL. A $250,000 house in MGM is 3 or 4 bdroms in a NICE part of town whereas a $250,000 house in San Diego is a shack in the ghetto. Believe it or not, COL and area of the country DOES determine what you make. I don't make $70K or even $60K flying a CE-500. So I'm underpaid? Well, I've got a 3 BR house on a golf course, a country club membership, a car that's paid for, clothes on my back, food on my table, and a pretty kicka$$ surround sound system. I think I'm doin' pretty dam-n alright personally. But a lot of folks will say I'm underpaid. Could I stand to be making more? Yup. Will I be looking to make more? Yup. My boss can either give me raises when due, or out go the resumes. But at the same time, I can't be demanding something ridiculous, because then I'm no different from the management scumbags that the airline guys villify.

I can always look to make more money, but all I want is to be fair, for myself and my employer. It's called integrity people. If you're getting a job in Los Angeles or NYC, then you dam-n well better negotiate $90K or $100K up there because that's what it's going to take to pay the bills. If you find someone that's willing to pay you $100K to fly a Hawker, then hell yeah.....more power to ya. But if you walk around DEMANDING things like that in parts of the country where it's not necessary to live comfortably, then you're going to be looking for a job for a long time.

None of my business, but are you providing for a family? Children? I find it quite difficult to support my family in the SE at my industry average Beechjet salary. When I negotiate a salary (which I will be doing very soon), thoughts such as sending my children to college, paying soccer registration fees, and insurance bills are foremost on my mind. Without these liabilities, I'd be happy with a lower salary.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

ahhh.. to be young, dumb, full of ___ , and have a "kickA$$ surround sound system"....

I love it!

 

[h25b]

None of my business, but are you providing for a family? Children? I find it quite difficult to support my family in the SE at my industry average Beechjet salary. When I negotiate a salary (which I will be doing very soon), thoughts such as sending my children to college, paying soccer registration fees, and insurance bills are foremost on my mind. Without these liabilities, I'd be happy with a lower salary.

Yep... You said it all. With my above industry average salary it's still VERY difficult to keep ends meeting trying to keep my wife at home and raising 2 kids. We simply could not do it on 41K (or whatever). Dance classes, school tuition, mortgage, iinsurance, heating oil, and all of the other things that go along with it can make things pretty tight at the end of the month. I had one conversation during a job search with a certain aviation director that called me about his open position. (this is a pretty well known company located in the BWI area) It was a Beechjet job and he asked what I would require for compensation to which I replied with my figure. He said that his position would be a "significant paycut." I politely thanked him and volunteered not to waste any more of his time.

I'm sure he found someone... But I'm sure that someone had no other responsibilities other than him/herself.

 

[matchthehatch]

Dance classes, school tuition, mortgage, iinsurance, heating oil, and all of the other things that go along with it can make things pretty tight at the end of the month.

Dance classes...don't forget the recital outfits, the professional pictures in their recital outfits, then you have to freakin' buy tickets to the recital. I'm feeling very poor all of a sudden.

 

[h25b]

Dance classes...don't forget the recital outfits, the professional pictures in their recital outfits, then you have to freakin' buy tickets to the recital. I'm feeling very poor all of a sudden.

Hilarious.

We just had a recital last Monday. I can honestly say that I wasn't very happy about laying down a hundred bucks for the outfit and dance shoes, but I can also honestly say that last Monday I thought it was the best hundred bucks I ever spent along with the $60/mo. for her lessons. Baby formula alone costs me about $100/mo. !!! Aviation is quickly becoming a profession for only single people with no kids.

 

[CapnVegetto]

Listen guys, my father has averaged less than 80K over a 30 year government career, and not only has he provided for a wife and family, he's done it quite well. Always had a roof over our head, food on the table, vacations, a boat, cars, and sent his worthless kid to college. When I was a kid, I did karate lessons, hunting, fishing, played golf, football, basketball, soccer, baseball, all that stuff.

Don't tell me that you can't provide a great life for your family on $70-$80K a year because I've lived it. He didn't always make that either. Started out as a Park Ranger with the Corps of Engineers 30 years ago on next to nothing, WITH A YOUNG WIFE AND BABY (me). When I was in grade school & high school in the 80's and 90's, most of the time he was in the $40K-$65K range or so. He's topped out at GS-14 pay after 30 years with a wonderful retirement.

Sounds to me like some of you guys need to learn how to budget your money and live within your means. Don't feed me this crap, because I've seen otherwise personally for the last 3 decades. I may be young and dumb, but I've got 2 parents that seem to have figured out pretty darn well how to provide for a family with a sub $90K salary. And NO, my mother never worked.

 

[CapnVegetto]

None of my business, but are you providing for a family? Children? I find it quite difficult to support my family in the SE at my industry average Beechjet salary. When I negotiate a salary (which I will be doing very soon), thoughts such as sending my children to college, paying soccer registration fees, and insurance bills are foremost on my mind. Without these liabilities, I'd be happy with a lower salary.

Naah, I don't. But you're right, at this point I'm happy. However, when I do have a wife and family, I won't be spending my money on 'kicka$$ surround sound systems' and the like. That money will go towards other things. No more new golf clubs every time I start to hit one a little bad. No more hunting trips to South Dakota on a whim, (like the one I'm taking next week). No more new box of Titleist ProV1's whenever I want them. No more eating out whenever I'm in the mood for expensive food. No more blowing a ton of money putting on college football parties for my friends every weekend.

It's called budgeting people. I'm living this way now because I've earned it. I lived in a tiny apartment and ate Ramen noodles paying off student loans, flight school loans and my car. I'm not quite 30, and have ZERO debt, except for living expenses. I've gotten to this point by budgeting my money and being smart with it. I've worked every year since I was 16. I drive an 8 year old Explorer that I take care of. I got rid of my debt by living in a smaller place, not buying a new car every other year like some people, and doing without stuff to pay it off quickly. I had a great teacher, (or nagger) though....my mother. It's amazing what you can do with a little willpower and smart money management.

 

[matchthehatch]

No surround sound here (unfortunately). No plasma TV. No country club. A 10 year old compact car and a US made minivan for my wife. Haven't taken a vacation since before my children were born almost 5 years ago. Bet Pops didn't pay $5000 per year for health insurance or $100 for 2 prescriptions. Government job. Good for him. A wonderful way to go. Pension right? I'm struggling to put anything into my Roth. No pension here, although I'll suggest that to my boss and see how that goes over. Besides, I thought we were talking about making 60K, not 80?

I meant you no disrespect. My point is this: Salary negotiations mean something totally different to a mother or father than they do to a 20-something who is single. Trust me. We do a dang fine job of budgeting, but thanks for the advice.

 

[CapnVegetto]

No surround sound here (unfortunately). No plasma TV. No country club. A 10 year old compact car and a US made minivan for my wife. Haven't taken a vacation since before my children were born almost 5 years ago. Bet Pops didn't pay $5000 per year for health insurance or $100 for 2 prescriptions. Government job. Good for him. A wonderful way to go. Pension right? I'm struggling to put anything into my Roth. No pension here, although I'll suggest that to my boss and see how that goes over. Besides, I thought we were talking about making 60K, not 80?

I meant you no disrespect. My point is this: Salary negotiations mean something totally different to a mother or father than they do to a 20-something who is single. Trust me. We do a dang fine job of budgeting, but thanks for the advice.

I mean no disrespect either. I do very much agree with your point. I just get kinda pi$$ed off at some of the people on this board that will whine and bitch about being underpaid unless you're flying a dam-n Seneca for $100K a year. $80K a year is a pretty dam-n good living in frickin non-metropolitan America. It's sure not in New York City, but it is in Arkansas. And I, for one, see no problem with starting at $65 or $70K in a Hawker, especially if they're going to drop $35K or so on you for a type rating. If you're experienced, typed, etc. then things are different. You're not going to cost that $35K, therefore you command a much higher salary at the onset of employment due to your qualifications. It's the same in EVERY single industry out there. What does every single want ad for engineers, managers, accountants, paralegals, salesmen, etc say??? "Salary based upon experience." Why should aviation be any different? It's fair, and it's right. A 3000 hour non-typed guy hired is NOT worth the same as an 8000 hour type rated current PIC. If this hurts someone's feelings or ego....tough. It's the dam-n truth. Has been for years.

You're right about some things for sure though. You'll never get rich working for the government, but they have taken DAM-N good care of him. All his health care, etc. was paid in full. FANTASTIC pension. He retires in January, at 65% salary for the rest of his life. If he dies first, my Mother still gets it till she goes. Not to mention the fact that he's invested very well. All in all, about the only thing that's going to change is that he doesn't have to go to work. Must be nice!

 

[h25b]

Listen guys, my father has averaged less than 80K over a 30 year government career, and not only has he provided for a wife and family, he's done it quite well. Always had a roof over our head, food on the table, vacations, a boat, cars, and sent his worthless kid to college. When I was a kid, I did karate lessons, hunting, fishing, played golf, football, basketball, soccer, baseball, all that stuff.

Don't tell me that you can't provide a great life for your family on $70-$80K a year because I've lived it. He didn't always make that either. Started out as a Park Ranger with the Corps of Engineers 30 years ago on next to nothing, WITH A YOUNG WIFE AND BABY (me). When I was in grade school & high school in the 80's and 90's, most of the time he was in the $40K-$65K range or so. He's topped out at GS-14 pay after 30 years with a wonderful retirement.

Sounds to me like some of you guys need to learn how to budget your money and live within your means. Don't feed me this crap, because I've seen otherwise personally for the last 3 decades. I may be young and dumb, but I've got 2 parents that seem to have figured out pretty darn well how to provide for a family with a sub $90K salary. And NO, my mother never worked.

Have you asked dear old dad some general cost of living questions about how things were when he was raising you??? I have and here's what I found out. He said just the other day that he had no clue how people can raise a family these days. When I grew up his company paid 100% of his health care premiums with ZERO (NO) out-of-pocket cost when visiting the doctor's office. He has a secure pension which is non-existant these days. Gasoline has always been dirt cheap (with the exception of the oil embargo period) and it never took much at all to heat the home in the winter. My parent's bought their home (in which they still reside) for $32,000 and it's now worth about $250,000. Going to a private school was unheard of and these days most public schools are horrible (of course, it all depends on where you live). Which brings us to saving for college. It took about $8,000/yr. for my brother and I to each attend a state university (room, board, tuition...). Have you seen what it will take to educate a kid 18 yrs. from now ??? WOW !

So I respect your parent's achievement for raising an obviously intelligent, together, and contributing member of the workforce. However, things are a bit different today and it takes a significantly greater amount of money to raise children in a Leave it to Beaver type household. At least that's what my old man tells me...

 

[CapnVegetto]

Have you asked dear old dad some general cost of living questions about how things were when he was raising you??? I have and here's what I found out. He said just the other day that he had no clue how people can raise a family these days. When I grew up his company paid 100% of his health care premiums with ZERO (NO) out-of-pocket cost when visiting the doctor's office. He has a secure pension which is non-existant these days. Gasoline has always been dirt cheap (with the exception of the oil embargo period) and it never took much at all to heat the home in the winter. My parent's bought their home (in which they still reside) for $32,000 and it's now worth about $250,000. Going to a private school was unheard of and these days most are horrible (of course, it all depends on where you live). Which brings us to saving for college. It took about $8,000/yr. for my brother and I to each attend a state university (room, board, tuition...). Have you seen what it will take to educate a kid 18 yrs. from now ??? WOW !

So I respect your parent's achievement for raising a obviously intelligent, together, and contributing member of the workforce. However, things are a bit different today and it takes a significantly greater amount of money to raise children in a Leave it to Beaver type household. At least that's what my old man tells me...

Thanks for the compliments. I will admit I haven't a clue about the differences today. But I've just always been able to live within my means, and I would hope that a wife and kids wouldn't change that. My folks were just smart. Have you looked into PACT for college tuition? It saved my folks a TON. I qualified for a small academic scholarship b/c of my ACT score too. Flying was paid by loans and delivering a LOT of pizza. That job SUCKS by the way. Last house they bought was $200K or so, but that was without me. House before that was $120K. That was in 1989. We lived in the south the whole time, so heating couldn't have been near as much as it would be in the yankee north.

I suppose they had some things going in their corner, but at the same time, we weren't living frugally and scrapping for every penny. I had a pretty darn great childhood, and my folks never worried about money. We sure weren't rich, but we never hurt for anything, and I consider myself very lucky to have been able to do a lot. I know I'll find out first hand one of these days, and I hope I can do it half as well as they did.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Captn' :

The old 100K is now 200K.

I like that you speak highly of your parents and had a good childhood - thats refreshing to hear these days....but the old days are gone. 80K does not raise a family in 90% of America anymore. Simply cant be done - not if you want to own a house. New to todays budgets are college savings of about $400/month per kid, MUCH higher 401K/IRA requirements needed (no pensions like yer pappy had), skyrocketing medical costs, etc....this is the difference.

Sure you skip all that and say "I budget good" but hows that for living? Sorry janey, no college money, daddy was a pilot.....nice. And dont give me that $hit about delivering pizza....reality is school will cost 250K+ by the time our kids go. Not Harvard man, thats 500K...just a run of the mill school.....thats not pizza money.

Retirement? whos funding that? your employers pension? (run that by a 40yr old UAL or DAL guy) If you are not saving $1000 a month (minimum) by your mid 30s you might not make it. Im not talking luxury condo in Boca retirement, Im talking basic 70% of current salary retirement. Oh yeah --Social Security-- will be there just like it is your folks huh? - that mentality will put you in a Fridgidaire box when you turn 65.

Medical costs? seen the alarming rate that 99% of companies are jacking thier medical costs to? how long until the family of 4 pays $10,000+/yr for thier share of the medical plan -- I bet inside of 10 years from now.

And location, remember, its 2005, and you may wind up looking for a job outside of Arkansas someday...where 125K does not even buy you the golf club membership, nevermind the house on the course.

Im not slamming you, a surround sound TV and a cold beer in your hand is great - but its no more than living for today...

good luck.

 

[rice]

Hey G200,

You want to come across the way next week and negotiate with the boss for me?:laugh:
Now if only one of you guys could come up with those Stanton #'s I was looking for on another thread (900B/GIV pay for PIC in NY/NJ/CT) I might be able to show him how badly my 2006 raise needs to be in the double digits.
Thanks







kidding.[/quote]

 

[semperfido]

won't your boss share them with you?