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Anyone want to chime in with a reasonable response: looking to upgrade in a Hawker 800 XP with a Fortune 230 company that operates a managed flight department. What kind of pay should I negotiate? Can someone PM me NBAA number or other salary survey numbers? Thanks!
 

HawkerF/O

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olde english800 said:
Anyone want to chime in with a reasonable response: looking to upgrade in a Hawker 800 XP with a Fortune 230 company that operates a managed flight department. What kind of pay should I negotiate? Can someone PM me NBAA number or other salary survey numbers? Thanks!
If you are a new PIC, 60K min. and just for 6 months, year at the most. 75K would be a pretty fair # flying 91 and 135. What you are going to have working against you is if the Boss talks to the Mgmt company and asks what pilots are getting paid. They'll low ball him with 135 pay figures and you'll be looking greedy. Now, you are just flying 200 hours a year and have a free schedule when not working, no office duties, etc, I think 60K would be fair.
 

Gulfstream 200

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60K sounds about 30K+ low for a Hawker 800 captain.

I would not suggest that "first year lower pay" thing to get in the door. Too many pilots do that. Its called Low Balling yourself. Nobody is going to magically give you a 30% pay raise after a year...hence the initial magic wears off and you are a grumpy underpaid charter pilot. congratulations.

4 years ago I checked out an 800XP PIC job in the NJ area. 135 managed 2 pilot aircraft, no Hawker experience here and the initial offer was 80K - and that was considered low. I know the NJ/NY area is pricy but 60K is dog$hit PIC money no matter where you are. Dont even think about it.
 
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HawkerF/O

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That's fair. If you are talking aboot working on either coast, there is going to be a premimun for the cost of living. But I feel that if you are talking aobut doing this out of Omaha, NE 60K off the bat is decent money. Walking in the door with 80K demands outside either coast and I think you'll be looking for work for a long time.
Gulfstream 200 said:
60K sounds about 30K+ low for a Hawker 800 captain.

I would not suggest that "first year lower pay" thing to get in the door. Too many pilots do that. Its called Low Balling yourself. Nobody is going to magically give you a 30% pay raise after a year...hence the initial magic wears off and you are a grumpy underpaid charter pilot. congratulations.

4 years ago I checked out an 800XP PIC job in the NJ area. 135 managed 2 pilot aircraft, no Hawker experience here and the initial offer was 80K - and that was considered low. I know the NJ/NY area is pricy but 60K is dog$hit money no matter where you are. Dont even think about it.
 

Gulfstream 200

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HawkerF/O said:
That's fair. If you are talking aboot working on either coast, there is going to be a premimun for the cost of living. But I feel that if you are talking aobut doing this out of Omaha, NE 60K off the bat is decent money. Walking in the door with 80K demands outside either coast and I think you'll be looking for work for a long time.


All depends on how much you think you're worth I guess?

Walk in and lowball the job, you will get it every time at the average dirtbag outfit.

I will take my chances and go high.

80K for an 800XP PIC is certainly not asking a lot no matter where you live.....

this isn't Netjets were talking about is it?
 
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135fr8r

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I'm with a Fortune 300 Company(who is making money out the ass) who flies all part 91. We are a midsize flight dept, and all pilots average 550-600 hrs. per year. I have been with this company for 2 years, and am at 60K. At the time I took the job, I needed work in a bad way, but I am now looking elsewhere.
 

hawkercpt

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It really depends on what part of the country and how much (135/91) flying you'll be doing. $60k is low for an XP PIC anywhere.
 

witchdoctor

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PIC no less than 90K unless you are in NJ or NY or CA, anything less than that and you are cheating yourself.
 

English

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:eek: 60k? You gotta be kidding! 135 citation drivers make more than that!
 

HawkerF/O

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There is a large difference in what you think you are worth and what your employer thinks you are worth. I don't know where these 85 and 90K figures are coming from, but the way you guys talk it's the norm through out the country and that is just not the case. As previously mentioned, both coasts you could find 90K, but in the middle of the country Kansas, a just upgrading new Captain is not having the kind of $ thrown at him, especially 135.
 

HMR

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$60K? Are you kidding?

Hawker F/O- No offense, but you might be a little (okay, ALOT) underpaid.

I know of at least two companies in the midwest who pay new-hire, mid-size jet (Astra) captains $95-100K (plus bennies) to start. I was able to verify the payscale recently when one of them offered me a job.

$60K for mid-size PIC is bad anywhere.

Gulfstream200 said:
Nobody is going to magically give you a 30% pay raise after a year...hence the initial magic wears off and you are a grumpy underpaid charter pilot. congratulations.
Been there, still have the tie and epaulettes in a box somewhere.;)
 

Lead Sled

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When it comes to salaries, you are worth whatever you negotiate. Very few employers will tell you that you're not asking for enough. EVERY job I've ever had (except for that one with a major) I've negotiated my starting pay up from what was offered. Do your homework, find out what the true numbers really are, and go for it. In our department's case we collected 4 or 5 different surveys and made the appropriate adjustments for location and had a very logical presentation. Result? A couple of even happier pilots. Asking for a salary number from a website isn't going to cut it.

'Sled
 

Gulfstream 200

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HawkerF/O said:
There is a large difference in what you think you are worth and what your employer thinks you are worth. I don't know where these 85 and 90K figures are coming from, but the way you guys talk it's the norm through out the country and that is just not the case. As previously mentioned, both coasts you could find 90K, but in the middle of the country Kansas, a just upgrading new Captain is not having the kind of $ thrown at him, especially 135.


I agree, you're out of the loop or just very desperate to stay exactly where you are and are afraid to ask for more and not get the position. If thats worth it, then great...

but 60K for an 800XP PIC is WAY WAY low. no matter where the job is. King Air 200 guys can make that, if not more.

And whats the difference between a "new" PIC and another? We are talking PICs, not the BS "co-captain" thing right? Old or New, PICs have the responsibility and sign for the aircraft. I hope that "new so less money" thing wasn't thrown at you when you interviewed
 

icefr8dawg

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FO Pay?

What do you guys thing proper FO pay should be east/west coast? 40-45K + bennies?
 

CapnVegetto

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Guys, I'm with Hawker F/O on this one. You go to most folks in places like AL, GA, west TX, etc. demanding 95 or 100K a year to fly a Hawker, you're going to get laughed at. 95K or 100K is very realistic in NY, DC or CA because of the cost of living. But not in somewhere like Montgomery, AL. A $250,000 house in MGM is 3 or 4 bdroms in a NICE part of town whereas a $250,000 house in San Diego is a shack in the ghetto. Believe it or not, COL and area of the country DOES determine what you make. I don't make $70K or even $60K flying a CE-500. So I'm underpaid? Well, I've got a 3 BR house on a golf course, a country club membership, a car that's paid for, clothes on my back, food on my table, and a pretty kicka$$ surround sound system. I think I'm doin' pretty dam-n alright personally. But a lot of folks will say I'm underpaid. Could I stand to be making more? Yup. Will I be looking to make more? Yup. My boss can either give me raises when due, or out go the resumes. But at the same time, I can't be demanding something ridiculous, because then I'm no different from the management scumbags that the airline guys villify.

I can always look to make more money, but all I want is to be fair, for myself and my employer. It's called integrity people. If you're getting a job in Los Angeles or NYC, then you dam-n well better negotiate $90K or $100K up there because that's what it's going to take to pay the bills. If you find someone that's willing to pay you $100K to fly a Hawker, then hell yeah.....more power to ya. But if you walk around DEMANDING things like that in parts of the country where it's not necessary to live comfortably, then you're going to be looking for a job for a long time.
 

CapnVegetto

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icefr8dawg said:
What do you guys thing proper FO pay should be east/west coast? 40-45K + bennies?

Got a buddy that was just hired with 1800 hours, no time in type, starting at $45K a year. Sent to initial training. At 6 month recurrent, he gets a type and pay goes to $50K.
 

matchthehatch

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CapnVegetto said:
Guys, I'm with Hawker F/O on this one. You go to most folks in places like AL, GA, west TX, etc. demanding 95 or 100K a year to fly a Hawker, you're going to get laughed at. 95K or 100K is very realistic in NY, DC or CA because of the cost of living. But not in somewhere like Montgomery, AL. A $250,000 house in MGM is 3 or 4 bdroms in a NICE part of town whereas a $250,000 house in San Diego is a shack in the ghetto. Believe it or not, COL and area of the country DOES determine what you make. I don't make $70K or even $60K flying a CE-500. So I'm underpaid? Well, I've got a 3 BR house on a golf course, a country club membership, a car that's paid for, clothes on my back, food on my table, and a pretty kicka$$ surround sound system. I think I'm doin' pretty dam-n alright personally. But a lot of folks will say I'm underpaid. Could I stand to be making more? Yup. Will I be looking to make more? Yup. My boss can either give me raises when due, or out go the resumes. But at the same time, I can't be demanding something ridiculous, because then I'm no different from the management scumbags that the airline guys villify.

I can always look to make more money, but all I want is to be fair, for myself and my employer. It's called integrity people. If you're getting a job in Los Angeles or NYC, then you dam-n well better negotiate $90K or $100K up there because that's what it's going to take to pay the bills. If you find someone that's willing to pay you $100K to fly a Hawker, then hell yeah.....more power to ya. But if you walk around DEMANDING things like that in parts of the country where it's not necessary to live comfortably, then you're going to be looking for a job for a long time.

None of my business, but are you providing for a family? Children? I find it quite difficult to support my family in the SE at my industry average Beechjet salary. When I negotiate a salary (which I will be doing very soon), thoughts such as sending my children to college, paying soccer registration fees, and insurance bills are foremost on my mind. Without these liabilities, I'd be happy with a lower salary.
 

Gulfstream 200

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ahhh.. to be young, dumb, full of ___ , and have a "kickA$$ surround sound system"....

I love it!


:D
 

h25b

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matchthehatch said:
None of my business, but are you providing for a family? Children? I find it quite difficult to support my family in the SE at my industry average Beechjet salary. When I negotiate a salary (which I will be doing very soon), thoughts such as sending my children to college, paying soccer registration fees, and insurance bills are foremost on my mind. Without these liabilities, I'd be happy with a lower salary.

Yep... You said it all. With my above industry average salary it's still VERY difficult to keep ends meeting trying to keep my wife at home and raising 2 kids. We simply could not do it on 41K (or whatever). Dance classes, school tuition, mortgage, iinsurance, heating oil, and all of the other things that go along with it can make things pretty tight at the end of the month. I had one conversation during a job search with a certain aviation director that called me about his open position. (this is a pretty well known company located in the BWI area) It was a Beechjet job and he asked what I would require for compensation to which I replied with my figure. He said that his position would be a "significant paycut." I politely thanked him and volunteered not to waste any more of his time.

I'm sure he found someone...:rolleyes: But I'm sure that someone had no other responsibilities other than him/herself.
 

matchthehatch

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h25b said:
Dance classes, school tuition, mortgage, iinsurance, heating oil, and all of the other things that go along with it can make things pretty tight at the end of the month.

Dance classes...don't forget the recital outfits, the professional pictures in their recital outfits, then you have to freakin' buy tickets to the recital. I'm feeling very poor all of a sudden.
 
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