HS-125 Pay

[CapnVegetto]

What do you guys thing proper FO pay should be east/west coast? 40-45K + bennies?

Got a buddy that was just hired with 1800 hours, no time in type, starting at $45K a year. Sent to initial training. At 6 month recurrent, he gets a type and pay goes to $50K.

 

[matchthehatch]

Guys, I'm with Hawker F/O on this one. You go to most folks in places like AL, GA, west TX, etc. demanding 95 or 100K a year to fly a Hawker, you're going to get laughed at. 95K or 100K is very realistic in NY, DC or CA because of the cost of living. But not in somewhere like Montgomery, AL. A $250,000 house in MGM is 3 or 4 bdroms in a NICE part of town whereas a $250,000 house in San Diego is a shack in the ghetto. Believe it or not, COL and area of the country DOES determine what you make. I don't make $70K or even $60K flying a CE-500. So I'm underpaid? Well, I've got a 3 BR house on a golf course, a country club membership, a car that's paid for, clothes on my back, food on my table, and a pretty kicka$$ surround sound system. I think I'm doin' pretty dam-n alright personally. But a lot of folks will say I'm underpaid. Could I stand to be making more? Yup. Will I be looking to make more? Yup. My boss can either give me raises when due, or out go the resumes. But at the same time, I can't be demanding something ridiculous, because then I'm no different from the management scumbags that the airline guys villify.

I can always look to make more money, but all I want is to be fair, for myself and my employer. It's called integrity people. If you're getting a job in Los Angeles or NYC, then you dam-n well better negotiate $90K or $100K up there because that's what it's going to take to pay the bills. If you find someone that's willing to pay you $100K to fly a Hawker, then hell yeah.....more power to ya. But if you walk around DEMANDING things like that in parts of the country where it's not necessary to live comfortably, then you're going to be looking for a job for a long time.

None of my business, but are you providing for a family? Children? I find it quite difficult to support my family in the SE at my industry average Beechjet salary. When I negotiate a salary (which I will be doing very soon), thoughts such as sending my children to college, paying soccer registration fees, and insurance bills are foremost on my mind. Without these liabilities, I'd be happy with a lower salary.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

ahhh.. to be young, dumb, full of ___ , and have a "kickA$$ surround sound system"....

I love it!

 

[h25b]

None of my business, but are you providing for a family? Children? I find it quite difficult to support my family in the SE at my industry average Beechjet salary. When I negotiate a salary (which I will be doing very soon), thoughts such as sending my children to college, paying soccer registration fees, and insurance bills are foremost on my mind. Without these liabilities, I'd be happy with a lower salary.

Yep... You said it all. With my above industry average salary it's still VERY difficult to keep ends meeting trying to keep my wife at home and raising 2 kids. We simply could not do it on 41K (or whatever). Dance classes, school tuition, mortgage, iinsurance, heating oil, and all of the other things that go along with it can make things pretty tight at the end of the month. I had one conversation during a job search with a certain aviation director that called me about his open position. (this is a pretty well known company located in the BWI area) It was a Beechjet job and he asked what I would require for compensation to which I replied with my figure. He said that his position would be a "significant paycut." I politely thanked him and volunteered not to waste any more of his time.

I'm sure he found someone... But I'm sure that someone had no other responsibilities other than him/herself.

 

[matchthehatch]

Dance classes, school tuition, mortgage, iinsurance, heating oil, and all of the other things that go along with it can make things pretty tight at the end of the month.

Dance classes...don't forget the recital outfits, the professional pictures in their recital outfits, then you have to freakin' buy tickets to the recital. I'm feeling very poor all of a sudden.

 

[h25b]

Dance classes...don't forget the recital outfits, the professional pictures in their recital outfits, then you have to freakin' buy tickets to the recital. I'm feeling very poor all of a sudden.

Hilarious.

We just had a recital last Monday. I can honestly say that I wasn't very happy about laying down a hundred bucks for the outfit and dance shoes, but I can also honestly say that last Monday I thought it was the best hundred bucks I ever spent along with the $60/mo. for her lessons. Baby formula alone costs me about $100/mo. !!! Aviation is quickly becoming a profession for only single people with no kids.

 

[CapnVegetto]

Listen guys, my father has averaged less than 80K over a 30 year government career, and not only has he provided for a wife and family, he's done it quite well. Always had a roof over our head, food on the table, vacations, a boat, cars, and sent his worthless kid to college. When I was a kid, I did karate lessons, hunting, fishing, played golf, football, basketball, soccer, baseball, all that stuff.

Don't tell me that you can't provide a great life for your family on $70-$80K a year because I've lived it. He didn't always make that either. Started out as a Park Ranger with the Corps of Engineers 30 years ago on next to nothing, WITH A YOUNG WIFE AND BABY (me). When I was in grade school & high school in the 80's and 90's, most of the time he was in the $40K-$65K range or so. He's topped out at GS-14 pay after 30 years with a wonderful retirement.

Sounds to me like some of you guys need to learn how to budget your money and live within your means. Don't feed me this crap, because I've seen otherwise personally for the last 3 decades. I may be young and dumb, but I've got 2 parents that seem to have figured out pretty darn well how to provide for a family with a sub $90K salary. And NO, my mother never worked.

 

[CapnVegetto]

None of my business, but are you providing for a family? Children? I find it quite difficult to support my family in the SE at my industry average Beechjet salary. When I negotiate a salary (which I will be doing very soon), thoughts such as sending my children to college, paying soccer registration fees, and insurance bills are foremost on my mind. Without these liabilities, I'd be happy with a lower salary.

Naah, I don't. But you're right, at this point I'm happy. However, when I do have a wife and family, I won't be spending my money on 'kicka$$ surround sound systems' and the like. That money will go towards other things. No more new golf clubs every time I start to hit one a little bad. No more hunting trips to South Dakota on a whim, (like the one I'm taking next week). No more new box of Titleist ProV1's whenever I want them. No more eating out whenever I'm in the mood for expensive food. No more blowing a ton of money putting on college football parties for my friends every weekend.

It's called budgeting people. I'm living this way now because I've earned it. I lived in a tiny apartment and ate Ramen noodles paying off student loans, flight school loans and my car. I'm not quite 30, and have ZERO debt, except for living expenses. I've gotten to this point by budgeting my money and being smart with it. I've worked every year since I was 16. I drive an 8 year old Explorer that I take care of. I got rid of my debt by living in a smaller place, not buying a new car every other year like some people, and doing without stuff to pay it off quickly. I had a great teacher, (or nagger) though....my mother. It's amazing what you can do with a little willpower and smart money management.

 

[matchthehatch]

No surround sound here (unfortunately). No plasma TV. No country club. A 10 year old compact car and a US made minivan for my wife. Haven't taken a vacation since before my children were born almost 5 years ago. Bet Pops didn't pay $5000 per year for health insurance or $100 for 2 prescriptions. Government job. Good for him. A wonderful way to go. Pension right? I'm struggling to put anything into my Roth. No pension here, although I'll suggest that to my boss and see how that goes over. Besides, I thought we were talking about making 60K, not 80?

I meant you no disrespect. My point is this: Salary negotiations mean something totally different to a mother or father than they do to a 20-something who is single. Trust me. We do a dang fine job of budgeting, but thanks for the advice.

 

[CapnVegetto]

No surround sound here (unfortunately). No plasma TV. No country club. A 10 year old compact car and a US made minivan for my wife. Haven't taken a vacation since before my children were born almost 5 years ago. Bet Pops didn't pay $5000 per year for health insurance or $100 for 2 prescriptions. Government job. Good for him. A wonderful way to go. Pension right? I'm struggling to put anything into my Roth. No pension here, although I'll suggest that to my boss and see how that goes over. Besides, I thought we were talking about making 60K, not 80?

I meant you no disrespect. My point is this: Salary negotiations mean something totally different to a mother or father than they do to a 20-something who is single. Trust me. We do a dang fine job of budgeting, but thanks for the advice.

I mean no disrespect either. I do very much agree with your point. I just get kinda pi$$ed off at some of the people on this board that will whine and bitch about being underpaid unless you're flying a dam-n Seneca for $100K a year. $80K a year is a pretty dam-n good living in frickin non-metropolitan America. It's sure not in New York City, but it is in Arkansas. And I, for one, see no problem with starting at $65 or $70K in a Hawker, especially if they're going to drop $35K or so on you for a type rating. If you're experienced, typed, etc. then things are different. You're not going to cost that $35K, therefore you command a much higher salary at the onset of employment due to your qualifications. It's the same in EVERY single industry out there. What does every single want ad for engineers, managers, accountants, paralegals, salesmen, etc say??? "Salary based upon experience." Why should aviation be any different? It's fair, and it's right. A 3000 hour non-typed guy hired is NOT worth the same as an 8000 hour type rated current PIC. If this hurts someone's feelings or ego....tough. It's the dam-n truth. Has been for years.

You're right about some things for sure though. You'll never get rich working for the government, but they have taken DAM-N good care of him. All his health care, etc. was paid in full. FANTASTIC pension. He retires in January, at 65% salary for the rest of his life. If he dies first, my Mother still gets it till she goes. Not to mention the fact that he's invested very well. All in all, about the only thing that's going to change is that he doesn't have to go to work. Must be nice!

 

[h25b]

Listen guys, my father has averaged less than 80K over a 30 year government career, and not only has he provided for a wife and family, he's done it quite well. Always had a roof over our head, food on the table, vacations, a boat, cars, and sent his worthless kid to college. When I was a kid, I did karate lessons, hunting, fishing, played golf, football, basketball, soccer, baseball, all that stuff.

Don't tell me that you can't provide a great life for your family on $70-$80K a year because I've lived it. He didn't always make that either. Started out as a Park Ranger with the Corps of Engineers 30 years ago on next to nothing, WITH A YOUNG WIFE AND BABY (me). When I was in grade school & high school in the 80's and 90's, most of the time he was in the $40K-$65K range or so. He's topped out at GS-14 pay after 30 years with a wonderful retirement.

Sounds to me like some of you guys need to learn how to budget your money and live within your means. Don't feed me this crap, because I've seen otherwise personally for the last 3 decades. I may be young and dumb, but I've got 2 parents that seem to have figured out pretty darn well how to provide for a family with a sub $90K salary. And NO, my mother never worked.

Have you asked dear old dad some general cost of living questions about how things were when he was raising you??? I have and here's what I found out. He said just the other day that he had no clue how people can raise a family these days. When I grew up his company paid 100% of his health care premiums with ZERO (NO) out-of-pocket cost when visiting the doctor's office. He has a secure pension which is non-existant these days. Gasoline has always been dirt cheap (with the exception of the oil embargo period) and it never took much at all to heat the home in the winter. My parent's bought their home (in which they still reside) for $32,000 and it's now worth about $250,000. Going to a private school was unheard of and these days most public schools are horrible (of course, it all depends on where you live). Which brings us to saving for college. It took about $8,000/yr. for my brother and I to each attend a state university (room, board, tuition...). Have you seen what it will take to educate a kid 18 yrs. from now ??? WOW !

So I respect your parent's achievement for raising an obviously intelligent, together, and contributing member of the workforce. However, things are a bit different today and it takes a significantly greater amount of money to raise children in a Leave it to Beaver type household. At least that's what my old man tells me...

 

[CapnVegetto]

Have you asked dear old dad some general cost of living questions about how things were when he was raising you??? I have and here's what I found out. He said just the other day that he had no clue how people can raise a family these days. When I grew up his company paid 100% of his health care premiums with ZERO (NO) out-of-pocket cost when visiting the doctor's office. He has a secure pension which is non-existant these days. Gasoline has always been dirt cheap (with the exception of the oil embargo period) and it never took much at all to heat the home in the winter. My parent's bought their home (in which they still reside) for $32,000 and it's now worth about $250,000. Going to a private school was unheard of and these days most are horrible (of course, it all depends on where you live). Which brings us to saving for college. It took about $8,000/yr. for my brother and I to each attend a state university (room, board, tuition...). Have you seen what it will take to educate a kid 18 yrs. from now ??? WOW !

So I respect your parent's achievement for raising a obviously intelligent, together, and contributing member of the workforce. However, things are a bit different today and it takes a significantly greater amount of money to raise children in a Leave it to Beaver type household. At least that's what my old man tells me...

Thanks for the compliments. I will admit I haven't a clue about the differences today. But I've just always been able to live within my means, and I would hope that a wife and kids wouldn't change that. My folks were just smart. Have you looked into PACT for college tuition? It saved my folks a TON. I qualified for a small academic scholarship b/c of my ACT score too. Flying was paid by loans and delivering a LOT of pizza. That job SUCKS by the way. Last house they bought was $200K or so, but that was without me. House before that was $120K. That was in 1989. We lived in the south the whole time, so heating couldn't have been near as much as it would be in the yankee north.

I suppose they had some things going in their corner, but at the same time, we weren't living frugally and scrapping for every penny. I had a pretty darn great childhood, and my folks never worried about money. We sure weren't rich, but we never hurt for anything, and I consider myself very lucky to have been able to do a lot. I know I'll find out first hand one of these days, and I hope I can do it half as well as they did.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Captn' :

The old 100K is now 200K.

I like that you speak highly of your parents and had a good childhood - thats refreshing to hear these days....but the old days are gone. 80K does not raise a family in 90% of America anymore. Simply cant be done - not if you want to own a house. New to todays budgets are college savings of about $400/month per kid, MUCH higher 401K/IRA requirements needed (no pensions like yer pappy had), skyrocketing medical costs, etc....this is the difference.

Sure you skip all that and say "I budget good" but hows that for living? Sorry janey, no college money, daddy was a pilot.....nice. And dont give me that $hit about delivering pizza....reality is school will cost 250K+ by the time our kids go. Not Harvard man, thats 500K...just a run of the mill school.....thats not pizza money.

Retirement? whos funding that? your employers pension? (run that by a 40yr old UAL or DAL guy) If you are not saving $1000 a month (minimum) by your mid 30s you might not make it. Im not talking luxury condo in Boca retirement, Im talking basic 70% of current salary retirement. Oh yeah --Social Security-- will be there just like it is your folks huh? - that mentality will put you in a Fridgidaire box when you turn 65.

Medical costs? seen the alarming rate that 99% of companies are jacking thier medical costs to? how long until the family of 4 pays $10,000+/yr for thier share of the medical plan -- I bet inside of 10 years from now.

And location, remember, its 2005, and you may wind up looking for a job outside of Arkansas someday...where 125K does not even buy you the golf club membership, nevermind the house on the course.

Im not slamming you, a surround sound TV and a cold beer in your hand is great - but its no more than living for today...

good luck.

 

[rice]

Hey G200,

You want to come across the way next week and negotiate with the boss for me?:laugh:
Now if only one of you guys could come up with those Stanton #'s I was looking for on another thread (900B/GIV pay for PIC in NY/NJ/CT) I might be able to show him how badly my 2006 raise needs to be in the double digits.
Thanks







kidding.[/quote]

 

[semperfido]

won't your boss share them with you?