How to save the Airline Industry

[castle bravo]

I dont know if you you dropped out of high school but the only thing we support in the US is the dairy farmer. Its called CAPITALISM,,,jeez read a book. What you speak of would be a form of SOCIALISM. not good

Take yet another look at AMTRAK!!!!

 

[castle bravo]

I think if you take a look a the big picture an exec does effect the lives of others. Because they have the "authority" to run the company they way they want (to a certain degree).


John Dasburg had the "authority to run" right to Burger King's open arms.
Richard Anderson had the "authority to run" right to United Health Care. When the going gets rough, management "runs" all right......

 

[Yank McCobb]

LOL,,.

Yep...I'm LOL

At a jacka$$ who works for one of the extreme bottom feeders in YIP.

Who cares what you think. It's obvious WHY you think the way you do. Everyone here should just let you go on your merry way. You are what you are and you think what you think and noone gives a crap.

So keep those auto parts moving, and keep those pilots in line. Jacka$$.

 

[Huck]

I remember when Exec Jet got 737's - they needed to hire some captains off the street until the line guys could get some time in the plane and upgrade.

So they advertised for 737 captains: $136,000 a year to start.

What is important is that Warren Buffet owned the company. I would argue that this salary was as close to a "free market" amount you could find. Imagine what they would have paid had Buffet owned 777's....

By the way, I just finished my international loft for the MD11 here at Fedex. One of 7 (that's seven) lofts I have to pass AFTER my checkride. It was Hong Kong, Subic, Beijing - headsets on, plates out, real time, and a "dummy" seatfiller captain so I had to do all the headwork. And this is just to get to IOE! "Yank and bank" my a$$....

 

[Clyde]

LOL,,,what, you dont feel that a guy should get paid $240,000 a year to work 8 days a month? If your an exec at a corp and you make 240 a year your a$$ workes 80 hours a week and you probably graduated from Harvard. Well good news,,,neither does natural economic forces. A re-alignment BACK into reality is underway for Legacy pilots as we speak. Your comment is probably gonna get ya blasted by some crusty, clockin a quarter mil, but livin off 30k of it because of the train reck a career in this industry leaves behind. I mean come on guys a quarter mil to yank and bank? We're not brain surgeons. If you need proof just read any thread in here.

$240K/yr and only working 8 days a month? Wow, where can I find a job like that? Last year, I worked an average of 16 days a month and only brought home $105K.

I'm glad you protest making so much and flying so little, someone needs to fly the trash out of KYIP and you sound like the ideal person to do it. Besides, we want pilots who are going to raise the bar, not lower it.

Think about that as you fly your Part 91 deadhead back to KYIP after being on duty for 14 hours and awake for 30+ hours.

 

[Mr Zog]

I dont know if you you dropped out of high school but the only thing we support in the US is the dairy farmer. Its called CAPITALISM,,,jeez read a book. What you speak of would be a form of SOCIALISM. not good

How does regulation equate to Socialism? I am not saying go back to the 70's, but there has to be some kind of medium. The airline industry abroad is heavily subsidized. How can US carriers compete? Answer, they can't. Capitalism only works in an environment free of barriers. That is not the case in the airline industry. If we let the airlines "evolve" the way you like and remove all regulations (allowing a true free market), in 10-15 years we all will be flying Air China or Korean Airlines from ABQ to BNA. In fact, last week the Fed appeared before Congress on the ongoing currency situation in China. The government of China is arbitraily devaluing their currency to help their economy and giving them an unfair advantage in trade. This is the type of market we (the airline industry) cannot compete in.

Oh, and by the way. I was a double major in college, not that it matters. And one of the majors was Economics. In fact, you helped pay for my education. So, belated thanks.

 

[Freight Dog]

The fundamental problem in our industry is the lack of accountability.

You have CEO's and upper management running off with $$$$$ while employee groups take paycuts, lose retirement, etc.

Sorry, but there should be NO bonuses for the management unless the airline posts a profit. As long as the unions give in to the b.s. of 'saving the airline' by taking paycuts, this downward spiral will continue. The issue is not the employees, it's the corporate America rejects running our airlines coupled with unwillingness of the employee groups to call the management bluff and dare them to shut down.

 

[TAZ MAN]

The bottom line is there is too much competition. Too many seats on too many carriers not charging enough. The LCC's for now are doing there own thing in their own markets with a few exceptions. Sort of like how regulation was. Now you have the legacies competing with each other. If one doesn't go along with a hike in fares then no one raises prices. What other industry doesn't raise their prices when their cost of supplies go up. When concrete goes up, my contractor charges me more. Always. Peculiar how we don't charge more when oil rises. It wouldn't be a load of money. Probably 10 bucks a passenger. But with all this competition its that narrow. Really insane.

The only way for this to work its way out is to consolidate or let a few go out of business. It really is that simple. I vote for consolidation. But no matter which way it goes, more jobs will be lost for a while. Deregulation will only succeed with a few legacies. If all the pilots worked for free, the business still wouldn't have made a profit.

Some of the management is bad, but some is ok and they are still losing their asses.

Good luck to us all.

 

[pipejockey]

The bottom line is there is too much competition. Too many seats on too many carriers not charging enough.

I agree with the "not charging enough". But I don't understand all these people saying there are too many seats, meaning excess capacity. Load factors are at record breaking levels. I remember flying in 2000, and 2001 and I would often have an empty seat beside me. Forget it now! If the airlines can't make any money with the overwhelming demand we are seeing these days, they will never turn a profit until oil hits 30 a barrel or everyone works for free. And as far as I'm concerned we are all but working for free compared to what we should be earning.

 

[TAZ MAN]

I agree with the "not charging enough". But I don't understand all these people saying there are too many seats, meaning excess capacity.

Supply and demand. If too much supply, create the demand. Create the demand by offering lower priced seats. I worked for an airline one time that sold the entire seating capacity for a summer at half price. Completely filled the airline but went bankrupt in June of THAT summer. If they didn't sell the seats for that price they would have gone bankrupt sooner.

The problem with the legacies is that if they get any smaller with such extreme competition they will not be able to compete as much. They wouldn't have as many markets to offer and may not be appealing to the frequent flyer who is their bread and butter.

Consolidation is the key. It would provide fewer competition but hold onto market share. The problem is that any two airlines that marry will have some overlapping in their routes and will need fewer airplanes and employees. AWA and USair for example. they make the announcement and almost in the same breath say there are 50 more airplanes than they need.

Or have a United, Delta, NWA or of the like go under you will have a few hundred airplanes worth of routes reduced from capacity. No matter how its done...its the only long term fix in the industry. Sad but true.

Again, I think the likelihood is consolidation. Nationally its far more accepting to stomach. If this USair/AWA has any legs to it, you will see more consolidation to come. Delta and NWA would be a great merger for the passenger. But any merger is tough on its employees.

Good luck to us all.

 

[skykid]

Edit: ps: I have a hard enough time swallowing that I am now going to pay for some United guys pension.

Willow, educate yourself a bit before you make false comments like the one above.

 

[WillowRunVortex]

Yep...I'm LOL

At a jacka$$ who works for one of the extreme bottom feeders in YIP.

Who cares what you think. It's obvious WHY you think the way you do. Everyone here should just let you go on your merry way. You are what you are and you think what you think and noone gives a crap.

So keep those auto parts moving, and keep those pilots in line. Jacka$$.

First of all, if you would bother to look at my profile, I dont fly freight anymore pinweed. Secondly I dont know of ANY operator that uses the 80 series for freight. Third, If one wants to see the true jacka$$, go through your previous post's. Most are jacka$$ like comments,,,I bet your the type of captain I fly with that makes 6 figures and yet scowers the cabin for an old newspaper,,,all while the F/A's are laughing at ya.

Someone else posted about my 240/year comments. If you would bother to see how this thread started it would be in the proper context for you. There are plenty of 400 drivers out there that are a finacial sap on the companies at the moment, salary/productivity, wise.

As far as the PBGC goes, I know it is paid by other companies that are paying insuarance, MY COMPANY, which still bugs me.

 

[pilotyip]

Vortex, you sound like pilotyip, must be something in the water at YIP

 

[WillowRunVortex]

Vortex, you sound like pilotyip, must be something in the water at YIP

Thats what they keep saying. Want to know what it is?

A HEALTHY DOSE OF REALITY!!!

Although that airport has its own set of problems,,,keeping it real isnt one of them.

 

[MooseBoy]

So our tax dollars are supposed to "prop-up" unprofitable business? Thats what regulation was,,,,NO THANKS!

Edit: ps: I have a hard enough time swallowing that I am now going to pay for some United guys pension.

Hey Jack***,

Looks like the right even has you scared. Why don't you do some of your own research so you don't sound like an idiot.

Money PBGC Takes In and Pays Out
PBGC is not funded by general tax revenues. PBGC collects insurance premiums from employers that sponsor insured pension plans, earns money from investments and receives funds from pension plans it takes over. PBGC pays monthly retirement benefits, up to a guaranteed maximum, to about 518,000 retirees in 3,479 pension plans that ended. Including those who have not yet retired and participants in multiemployer plans receiving financial assistance, PBGC is responsible for the current and future pensions of about 1,061,000 people.

This is straight from their website.

 

[castle bravo]

First of all, if you would bother to look at my profile, I dont fly freight anymore pinweed. Secondly I dont know of ANY operator that uses the 80 series for freight.


Sounds like NK.

 

[capt. megadeth]

LOL,,,what, you dont feel that a guy should get paid $240,000 a year to work 8 days a month? If your an exec at a corp and you make 240 a year your a$$ workes 80 hours a week and you probably graduated from Harvard. Well good news,,,neither does natural economic forces. A re-alignment BACK into reality is underway for Legacy pilots as we speak. Your comment is probably gonna get ya blasted by some crusty, clockin a quarter mil, but livin off 30k of it because of the train reck a career in this industry leaves behind. I mean come on guys a quarter mil to yank and bank? We're not brain surgeons. If you need proof just read any thread in here.

Did you get an F in English? You don't make any sense.
Yeah, I am sure all the execs work 80 hours a week. Maybe on the golf course.

 

[capt. megadeth]

No,,,we did it to ourselves,,,well United started with the unprecedented pay scales in the 90's,,,which most airlines matched,,,now look. Complete schambles. I dont hear any of those guys on the radio now pipin up with "owner operator"

Last I checked, the pilots are not the ones who set the ticket prices well below what they should be. Yeah, we did it to ourselves. You really need to put the crack pipe down. By the way, how do you afford drugs on our pathetic pilot pay?

 

[capt. megadeth]

Unfortunately, I think the execs lose sight of this and focus on "shareholder" value and Wall Street instead.

I think it's more like, the execs lose sight of everything but their GREEDY LITTLE SELVES. They don't give a $hit about anyone but themselves.....not their employees, not their shareholders, not anyone. Look at all the slimeballs out there. Orensteen (or whatever that $hitheads name is), Kozlowski (hi, I need a $6,000 shower curtain while I am stabbing everyone in the back) and countless others. If they actually had a conscience, they would not give themselves a raise while basically blackmailing everyone else into pay cuts.

 

[SWA GUY]

The Board of Directors approve the executive's compensation package. Which is a contract negotiated and signed before the exec goes to work.

Maybe the judgement of the BOD needs to be questioned.

 

[capt. megadeth]

The Board of Directors approve the executive's compensation package. Which is a contract negotiated and signed before the exec goes to work.

Maybe the judgement of the BOD needs to be questioned.

Of course! They are all on eachother's boards.....that's how it gets approved. It's all part of their good ole boys club.

 

[Publishers]

You all are making points that are based on less than probably 2% of the total number of public companies in the United States. The average middle manager or even senior probably works about 55 hours a week and travels a good deal. He may get three weeks vacation but most do not take it all. Obviously in the NE or CA wages are above the rest of the country. Many of them take their fudiciary responsibilities quite seriously and feel some responsiibility for the welfare of their employee group.

While we can all point to the weather and danger, the fact is that a pilot of a commercial airliner has a pretty good life and is in less danger than a long haul trucker.

 

[jarhead]

Of course! They are all on eachother's boards.....that's how it gets approved. It's all part of their good ole boys club.

You are aware are you not, that board members are elected by the owners of the comapny? That would be the share holders, and nothing stops anyone from buying stock in a publicly traded company. The BOD hires the top dogs, and if they screw up, the shareholders can vote them out at the annual meeting.

 

[Yank McCobb]

I think it's more like, the execs lose sight of everything but their GREEDY LITTLE SELVES. They don't give a $hit about anyone but themselves.....not their employees, not their shareholders, not anyone. Look at all the slimeballs out there. Orensteen (or whatever that $hitheads name is), Kozlowski (hi, I need a $6,000 shower curtain while I am stabbing everyone in the back) and countless others. If they actually had a conscience, they would not give themselves a raise while basically blackmailing everyone else into pay cuts.

Now WHICH airline was it you are starting a new career with? And WHICH airline is the one you REALLY want to spend your career with?

What do you reckon THOSE "execs" would think of your "analysis"?

(Of course you will say you meant execs at "other" companies...)

 

[pipejockey]

The average middle manager or even senior probably works about 55 hours a week and travels a good deal.

People need to realize that when talking about a manager who works 55 hours a week, we are talking about the time he gets to the office in the morning to the time he leaves in the afternoon. So you can't merely compare that with how much a pilot flies. We are basically at work from the time we arrive at the airport until the time we leave the airport.

Speaking for myself, I am on duty anywhere from 12 to 16 hours a day. Looking over my last trip, I was out for 22 days, and worked 12 of those days (if only cargo moved on the weekends there wouldn't be a waste of 10 days there) at an average of 14 hours on duty each day is 168 hours for the month. The manager at 55 hours a week comes out to 220 for the month, but he is at home most everynight and isn't in some noisy crappy hotel every weekend like I am. So when people say pilots don't work as much as management, I don't buy it!!

 

[WillowRunVortex]

People need to realize that when talking about a manager who works 55 hours a week, we are talking about the time he gets to the office in the morning to the time he leaves in the afternoon. So you can't merely compare that with how much a pilot flies. We are basically at work from the time we arrive at the airport until the time we leave the airport.

Speaking for myself, I am on duty anywhere from 12 to 16 hours a day. Looking over my last trip, I was out for 22 days, and worked 12 of those days (if only cargo moved on the weekends there wouldn't be a waste of 10 days there) at an average of 14 hours on duty each day is 168 hours for the month. The manager at 55 hours a week comes out to 220 for the month, but he is at home most everynight and isn't in some noisy crappy hotel every weekend like I am. So when people say pilots don't work as much as management, I don't buy it!!

This thread was originaly geared toward Legacy passenger carrying airlines. I dont think you will find much argument that the freight lifestyle sucks.

 

[Clyde]

This thread was originaly geared toward Legacy passenger carrying airlines. I dont think you will find much argument that the freight lifestyle sucks.

The freight lifestyle is very good. I turned down opportunities at two major PAX carriers after being hired at Brown, and that was pre-9/11.

My criteria on choosing a career-carrier was based on past and present financial numbers, expected growth, and what type of company overall.

A good number of my friends never applied to UPS, FedEx, or ABX because they didn't want to fly the backside of the clock. The past couple of years though, I have been hearing a lot more pax carriers on center frequencies during the middle of the night than I used to hear. Also, I find it much easier to start work in the early evening and check into the hotel at 0630 than to get that 0330 wake-up call and fly all day. Plus, we don't divert because of sick or unruly passengers in the back of the airplane. You can have that glamour.

As far as my opinion goes, the freight lifestyle is a very hard one to beat in this industry. It's tough, no argument there, but the benefits, schedule, and compensation more than make up for it. The paycheck always hits the bank on time, my pension is fully-funded, and the company makes billions of dollars quarterly.

I'll take the boxes and freight any day (or night) of the week.

 

[doh]

Please tell me you are kidding......

There are not many 200K guys out there......all of that compensation is just loaded on the back end of their careers. Countless years of being away from their family......responsibility of passenger's lives and conract negotiation after negotiation...plus the whole cough routine and checkrides every six months.

You my friend are a TOOL

AMEN!

 

[WillowRunVortex]

The freight lifestyle is very good. I turned down opportunities at two major PAX carriers after being hired at Brown, and that was pre-9/11.

UPS is a very good company. But some people would consider the grave yard shift an unacceptable longterm lifestyle. Although Ive not worked for UPS, I have flown trips for them. The whole getting into SDF at midnight trying to get 3 0r 4 hours of sleep then on the crew van to the plane at 4 or 5 am thing just is not sustainable. Least it wouldnt be for me. I have lost my share of sleep getting to where I am trust me. I find I am happiest bright eyed and bushy tailed with a full nights sleep under my belt. Although I dont have a problem with early morn departures,,,I just go to bed earlier the previous eve.

 

[Clyde]

UPS is a very good company. But some people would consider the grave yard shift an unacceptable longterm lifestyle. Although Ive not worked for UPS, I have flown trips for them. The whole getting into SDF at midnight trying to get 3 0r 4 hours of sleep then on the crew van to the plane at 4 or 5 am thing just is not sustainable. Least it wouldnt be for me. I have lost my share of sleep getting to where I am trust me. I find I am happiest bright eyed and bushy tailed with a full nights sleep under my belt. Although I dont have a problem with early morn departures,,,I just go to bed earlier the previous eve.

Willow,

Noted, and very well put. The backside of the clock flying is very tough, and not for everybody. The middle of the night sort is rough and no matter how long you have been doing it, it's never the most fun out there. I have more respect for people who know it's tough and stay away from it, than for those who take the job and complain about it their whole lives. The latter can make a long trip even longer.

I do find some challenges on the pax side as well. Personally, I don't want to have to deal with the traveling public. That's just a personal preference. Second, like I mentioned earlier, I think it's tougher to start my day very early in the morning and fly all day when the traffic is heavier and the sun is in my face. You guys are not without challenges either.

But, eat right, exercise often, and sleep when you can and both types of shifts are very manageable. Personally, I think the people-pilots have it tougher than I do.