How to save the Airline Industry

[PCL_128]

No,,,we did it to ourselves,,,well United started with the unprecedented pay scales in the 90's,,,which most airlines matched,,,now look. Complete schambles. I dont hear any of those guys on the radio now pipin up with "owner operator"

Yeah, I don't suppose any of UAL's problems might be related to failed merger attempts, dozens of aircraft types, poor customer service, etc... Nah, it must be those few pilots at the top of the list making $250k/yr.

Really, how much management kool-aid are they serving over at YIP nowdays? You sound more like Lorenzo than a line pilot.

 

[WillowRunVortex]

Yay for me, I have no sense of self-worth!

I can look at your profile and see where your comments stem from

 

[WillowRunVortex]

Yeah, I don't suppose any of UAL's problems might be related to failed merger attempts, dozens of aircraft types, poor customer service, etc... Nah, it must be those few pilots at the top of the list making $250k/yr.

Really, how much management kool-aid are they serving over at YIP nowdays? You sound more like Lorenzo than a line pilot.

The most conservative airline in the industry is ready to file Bk. NWA,,,what is your explanation there.

 

[Mr Zog]

So our tax dollars are supposed to "prop-up" unprofitable business? Thats what regulation was,,,,NO THANKS!

Edit: ps: I have a hard enough time swallowing that I am now going to pay for some United guys pension.

Ohh, I am sorry. I did not know the airline industry was a free-market. Someone please send a memo to BA, Air France, Quantas, Air China, Singapore Airlines, Cathay, etc. All are subsidized by their respective governments....

 

[PCL_128]

The most conservative airline in the industry is ready to file Bk. NWA,,,what is your explanation there.

NWA is going to file bankruptcy just so they can get rid of pension and scope and drastically cut the pay, benefits, and working conditions of all the employee groups. Management is too lazy to fix their worthless business model. It's much easier to pay a bunch of lawyers to take them into CH. 11 so they can balance the books on the backs of the workers. Delta will soon do the same (sorry General, but I think you know it's true). For goodness sake, just look at USAir. If every pilot in the company worked for free with no benefits the airline would still be losing money. THIS IS NOT A LABOR PROBLEM. THIS IS A MANAGEMENT PROBLEM. PLEASE DEVELOPE SOME SELF-RESPECT!!!!

 

[WillowRunVortex]

Ohh, I am sorry. I did not know the airline industry was a free-market. Someone please send a memo to BA, Air France, Quantas, Air China, Singapore Airlines, Cathay, etc. All are subsidized by their respective governments....

I dont know if you you dropped out of high school but the only thing we support in the US is the dairy farmer. Its called CAPITALISM,,,jeez read a book. What you speak of would be a form of SOCIALISM. not good

 

[WillowRunVortex]

NWA is going to file bankruptcy just so they can get rid of pension and scope and drastically cut the pay, benefits, and working conditions of all the employee groups. Management is too lazy to fix their worthless business model. It's much easier to pay a bunch of lawyers to take them into CH. 11 so they can balance the books on the backs of the workers. Delta will soon do the same (sorry General, but I think you know it's true). For goodness sake, just look at USAir. If every pilot in the company worked for free with no benefits the airline would still be losing money. THIS IS NOT A LABOR PROBLEM. THIS IS A MANAGEMENT PROBLEM. PLEASE DEVELOPE SOME SELF-RESPECT!!!!

Where did all the money that nobody had go? its big business,,,gimme gimme gimme,,look at GM same thing. Everyone gets overpaid ,until one day someone actually looks into the coffers and goes ah hold on a minute, theres nothin in here.

 

[PCL_128]

look at GM same thing. Everyone gets overpaid ,until one day someone actually looks into the coffers and goes ah hold on a minute, theres nothin in here.

Sigh... GM is the same situation as the airlines and so is Ford. It's bad management and bad business that's causing these problems, not overpaid workers. GM hasn't produced a decent car in years. Ford's latest offerings to try to compete with Chrysler's big hits fell completely flat. GM and Ford make boring, low quality cars that are overpriced. I say again, this is not about labor costs. This is about lazy and inept management.

 

[WillowRunVortex]

Sigh... GM is the same situation as the airlines and so is Ford. It's bad management and bad business that's causing these problems, not overpaid workers. GM hasn't produced a decent car in years. Ford's latest offerings to try to compete with Chrysler's big hits fell completely flat. GM and Ford make boring, low quality cars that are overpriced. I say again, this is not about labor costs. This is about lazy and inept management.

The expenses for an airline are as follows:

#1- Fuel

#2- Labor costs

#3- Everything else

which is it with this business model shall we (are able to) fix?

 

[PCL_128]

The #1 and #2 expenses for an airline are:

#1- Fuel

#2- Labor costs

which is it with this business model shall we (are able to) fix?

There's your problem, you're thinking like pinheaded management again. There are two sides to the equation: expenses and revenue. It's impossible to cut expenses to the point of saving the airlines, so the only solution is to increase revenue. Now you can debate how best to increase revenue, but however you do it, it must be done. No matter how many times they come at us for concessions they will never make the airline profitable.

Every time they get cost cuts they go right back to the fare wars. Every time they cut the frontline employee's pay then they're pi$$ing off the people that deal directly with the customers. Terrible employee morale does not translate to good customer service. Bad customer service translates to even worse revenue streams. Look at Southwest. They pay their pilots the highest narrowbody rates in the country. They get tons of days off and great benefits. They're the most heavily unionized airline in the country. So why are they not in the crapper like everyone else? Because their management team has a collective IQ of more 100! They have a good business model and understand that treating their employees well pays off tenfold.

You've got to think outside of the box and stop repeating the management talking points. None of the airlines will ever survive if they don't fix their business model instead of attacking labor.

 

[WillowRunVortex]

There's your problem, you're thinking like pinheaded management again. There are two sides to the equation: expenses and revenue. It's impossible to cut expenses to the point of saving the airlines, so the only solution is to increase revenue. Now you can debate how best to increase revenue, but however you do it, it must be done. No matter how many times they come at us for concessions they will never make the airline profitable.

Every time they get cost cuts they go right back to the fare wars. Every time they cut the frontline employee's pay then they're pi$$ing off the people that deal directly with the customers. Terrible employee morale does not translate to good customer service. Bad customer service translates to even worse revenue streams. Look at Southwest. They pay their pilots the highest narrowbody rates in the country. They get tons of days off and great benefits. They're the most heavily unionized airline in the country. So why are they not in the crapper like everyone else? Because their management team has a collective IQ of more 100! They have a good business model and understand that treating their employees well pays off tenfold.

You've got to think outside of the box and stop repeating the management talking points. None of the airlines will ever survive if they don't fix their business model instead of attacking labor.

Ah thank you and I got ya,,,guess what, the public is paying what it is willing to pay for airfare NOW. Anything more and guess what seat/miles go down,,,DRASTICALLY. Sorry but SWA and and the low costs will tell you they are doing just fine thank-you. So raising faires isnt an option! And a industry wide agreement is a Federal Offense.

 

[Crash Pad]

So there I was...

Final approach one engine on fire, shooting an approach down to Cat II mins, my captain is dead... Took a bird strike right in the face... Tower clears me to land but reminds me that landing in a tornado is not a good idea...

"Darn the tornado I have to get this thing on the ground!" I can hear the screams from behind me... all 50 pax are in some stage of panic!

Sound familiar... I don't understand how you can think some pilots could be overpaid. The amount of training and skill to pilot a modern jet from ATL to ORD is unimaginable.

You also have to remeber the top physical condition you have to stay in to keep your medical. I don't know about the rest of the pilots on this board but I train with Lance Armstrong on my days off just to meet the medical requirements.

Don't get me started on schedule... Just last week I only had three days off... That means that I was working for four days. Try and find a doctor or a CEO who is gone for that amount of time. Good luck!

Oh and speaking of responsability. Sure a CEO has to answer to hundreds of share holders or decide to layoff 100,000 workers... I along with a captain am responsible for 50 passengers... on a full flight. One screw up... just one little thing like pushing the push to talk at the wrong time and everyone dies.

YOU WANT ME ON THAT WALL.... YOU NEED ME ON THAT WALL

 

[rptrain]

and you a$$hole, you're lucky to be here!

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

Is that so? How many lives is that "exec" responsible for when he goes to work? How many approaches to mins in pouring rain and howling winds with 400 people sitting behind him does he do each year? How many medical exams and checkrides does he have to do each year to hang on to his livelihood? How many years did he have to make $15k/yr while "paying his dues" while he waited for that executive job?

I think if you take a look a the big picture an exec does effect the lives of others. Because they have the "authority" to run the company they way they want (to a certain degree). A pilot is responsible for their ship, etc. (which if something bad happens could effect the entire company). The exec is responsible for the entire organization so therefore they do effect the lives of others good or bad - and recently mostly bad! An exec's decision impacts the employees, the vendors/people who do business with them, and the customers. Unfortunately, I think the execs lose sight of this and focus on "shareholder" value and Wall Street instead.

 

[castle bravo]

So our tax dollars are supposed to "prop-up" unprofitable business? Thats what regulation was,,,,NO THANKS!

Edit: ps: I have a hard enough time swallowing that I am now going to pay for some United guys pension.

Just take a close look at AMTRAK!!!