How to save the Airline Industry

[ABXbooger]

I don't fly people, but I just got off a pax carrier flight...oh my god how are you guys not making more money than god?

People everywhere, carriers giving away seats...30+ people in line at the Starbucks and the gate agent announcing we should go and buy food in the terminal before we get on board because there isn't going to be enough.

Amazing...

 

[Hardknock]

management

 

[boeingdriver213]

Not just management, but maybe a little bit of greed on the part of some pilots of previous not so distant times...(here it comes)

 

[Mr Zog]

It's simple, the price of a ticket from NY to London in the early 70's is the same as it is today. Meanwhile everything else costs 5 times more. Since everything else costs more and is fixed, the only place to cut costs is labor. It doesn't take an economist to figure it out.

What caused the downfall of the industry? In my opinion, "Deregulation" in a quasi-regulated industry.

 

[WillowRunVortex]

Not just management, but maybe a little bit of greed on the part of some pilots of previous not so distant times...(here it comes)

LOL,,,what, you dont feel that a guy should get paid $240,000 a year to work 8 days a month? If your an exec at a corp and you make 240 a year your a$$ workes 80 hours a week and you probably graduated from Harvard. Well good news,,,neither does natural economic forces. A re-alignment BACK into reality is underway for Legacy pilots as we speak. Your comment is probably gonna get ya blasted by some crusty, clockin a quarter mil, but livin off 30k of it because of the train reck a career in this industry leaves behind. I mean come on guys a quarter mil to yank and bank? We're not brain surgeons. If you need proof just read any thread in here.

 

[PCL_128]

If your an exec at a corp and you make 240 a year your a$$ workes 80 hours a week and you probably graduated from Harvard.

Is that so? How many lives is that "exec" responsible for when he goes to work? How many approaches to mins in pouring rain and howling winds with 400 people sitting behind him does he do each year? How many medical exams and checkrides does he have to do each year to hang on to his livelihood? How many years did he have to make $15k/yr while "paying his dues" while he waited for that executive job?

The comparison just doesn't work. That exec may work long hours, but he does it in the comfort of his big corner office at a computer monitor all day making decisions that probably aren't really going to affect much of anything (I wonder whether we should stick with the pretzels or switch to peanuts? Hmmmm, such tough decisions.) He left Harvard or Yale and probably went straight into a job that pays $50-75k/yr with full benefits and a company car. If he loses his job he'll get a severance package worth a year's salary and benefits and he'll probably pick up a job that pays even more than the previous one. Sorry, no comparison to the wide-body Captain making $200k.

I mean come on guys a quarter mil to yank and bank? We're not brain surgeons. If you need proof just read any thread in here.

You're pathetic. What's it like to go through life with such a low opinion of yourself and your profession?

 

[WillowRunVortex]

It's simple, the price of a ticket from NY to London in the early 70's is the same as it is today. Meanwhile everything else costs 5 times more. Since everything else costs more and is fixed, the only place to cut costs is labor. It doesn't take an economist to figure it out.

What caused the downfall of the industry? In my opinion, "Deregulation" in a quasi-regulated industry.

So our tax dollars are supposed to "prop-up" unprofitable business? Thats what regulation was,,,,NO THANKS!

Edit: ps: I have a hard enough time swallowing that I am now going to pay for some United guys pension.

 

[boeingdriver213]

Except the United guys pension you will be paying for is a fraction of what he spent his whole career working for.

 

[WillowRunVortex]

Is that so? How many lives is that "exec" responsible for when he goes to work? How many approaches to mins in pouring rain and howling winds with 400 people sitting behind him does he do each year? How many medical exams and checkrides does he have to do each year to hang on to his livelihood? How many years did he have to make $15k/yr while "paying his dues" while he waited for that executive job?

The comparison just doesn't work. That exec may work long hours, but he does it in the comfort of his big corner office at a computer monitor all day making decisions that probably aren't really going to affect much of anything (I wonder whether we should stick with the pretzels or switch to peanuts? Hmmmm, such tough decisions.) He left Harvard or Yale and probably went straight into a job that pays $50-75k/yr with full benefits and a company car. If he loses his job he'll get a severance package worth a year's salary and benefits and he'll probably pick up a job that pays even more than the previous one. Sorry, no comparison to the wide-body Captain making $200k.



You're pathetic. What's it like to go through life with such a low opinion of yourself and your profession?

I used to use the "Im resposible for peoples lives too" thingo, seriously. But the fact is that an exec for a corp has little ol ladys as share holders that depend on him for their profit share for groceries that week,,,,same thing. and as far as the drop your pencil theory goes (office). We basically have a better office now than most execs. and no its not all we can do to keep the plane in the air. AND after 1st yr probation were Dam_ near 50,000, way more by year 5. Face it we're spoiled brats and the whole world has finally realized it.

 

[jjetpilot]

Please tell me you are kidding......

There are not many 200K guys out there......all of that compensation is just loaded on the back end of their careers. Countless years of being away from their family......responsibility of passenger's lives and conract negotiation after negotiation...plus the whole cough routine and checkrides every six months.

You my friend are a TOOL

 

[PCL_128]

I used to use the "Im resposible for peoples lives too" thingo, seriously. But the fact is that an exec for a corp has little ol ladys as share holders that depend on him for their profit share for groceries that week,,,,same thing.

You can't possibly believe that that's the same thing. For one thing the "little ol lady" has social security to pay for her bare essentials, so her life is certainly not in danger if that dividend check doesn't roll in. It's really simple: if that exec screws up then the TPS report doesn't get done this week; if you or I screw up then a bunch of people die. There's just no comparison.

AND after 1st yr probation were Dam_ near 50,000, way more by year 5. Face it we're spoiled brats and the whole world has finally realized it.

I don't know where you worked during your 5th year in this business, but I'm in my 5th year now and I just barely squeaked out $30k in gross last year. Not exactly spoiled if you ask me.

 

[psycho]

LOL,,,what, you dont feel that a guy should get paid $240,000 a year to work 8 days a month? If your an exec at a corp and you make 240 a year your a$$ workes 80 hours a week and you probably graduated from Harvard. Well good news,,,neither does natural economic forces. A re-alignment BACK into reality is underway for Legacy pilots as we speak. Your comment is probably gonna get ya blasted by some crusty, clockin a quarter mil, but livin off 30k of it because of the train reck a career in this industry leaves behind. I mean come on guys a quarter mil to yank and bank? We're not brain surgeons. If you need proof just read any thread in here.

How sad. I would expect a post like that from an airline management PR guy, although his spelling and grammar would be better. A Harvard grad working 80 hrs per week as an exec and only making 240k?? Sounds like pay scales from the 70's to me. You may want to take note of the inflation. A Harvard grad can do 240k in 5 yrs or less, and they are not exactly airline pilots. Brain surgery, hah!! Their surgical nurses pull down 200k. An Airline pilot needs 4yrs of college, 8 yrs of flying, and 25 yrs on the senority list to pull in that kind of cash.

If you want to shrink your job description down to "yank and bank", then you deserve what you get and I hope you have good first officers. May as well say a surgeon only does "cut and run".

We could probably save this industry by getting rid of unprofessional pilots like you who demean yourselves in public.

 

[WillowRunVortex]

You can't possibly believe that that's the same thing. For one thing the "little ol lady" has social security to pay for her bare essentials, so her life is certainly not in danger if that dividend check doesn't roll in. It's really simple: if that exec screws up then the TPS report doesn't get done this week; if you or I screw up then a bunch of people die. There's just no comparison.



I don't know where you worked during your 5th year in this business, but I'm in my 5th year now and I just barely squeaked out $30k in gross last year. Not exactly spoiled if you ask me.

I made 24,000 my 1st yr, (which is what I was told I would make) and 34,000 my second year. I guess I dont wanna hear the whole its a "scary thing" perspective anymore, because I dont think the public is buying it and personally its a bit overblown. I mean before 911 we were tryin to figure out if the F/A's were "IN" not wether we could use our superb piloting skills to successfully complete the flight

 

[Cardinal]

Yay for me, I have no sense of self-worth!

 

[WillowRunVortex]

How sad. I would expect a post like that from an airline management PR guy, although his spelling and grammar would be better. A Harvard grad working 80 hrs per week as an exec and only making 240k?? Sounds like pay scales from the 70's to me. You may want to take note of the inflation. A Harvard grad can do 240k in 5 yrs or less, and they are not exactly airline pilots. Brain surgery, hah!! Their surgical nurses pull down 200k. An Airline pilot needs 4yrs of college, 8 yrs of flying, and 25 yrs on the senority list to pull in that kind of cash.

If you want to shrink your job description down to "yank and bank", then you deserve what you get and I hope you have good first officers. May as well say a surgeon only does "cut and run".

We could probably save this industry by getting rid of unprofessional pilots like you who demean yourselves in public.

No,,,we did it to ourselves,,,well United started with the unprecedented pay scales in the 90's,,,which most airlines matched,,,now look. Complete schambles. I dont hear any of those guys on the radio now pipin up with "owner operator"

 

[PCL_128]

No,,,we did it to ourselves,,,well United started with the unprecedented pay scales in the 90's,,,which most airlines matched,,,now look. Complete schambles. I dont hear any of those guys on the radio now pipin up with "owner operator"

Yeah, I don't suppose any of UAL's problems might be related to failed merger attempts, dozens of aircraft types, poor customer service, etc... Nah, it must be those few pilots at the top of the list making $250k/yr.

Really, how much management kool-aid are they serving over at YIP nowdays? You sound more like Lorenzo than a line pilot.

 

[WillowRunVortex]

Yay for me, I have no sense of self-worth!

I can look at your profile and see where your comments stem from

 

[WillowRunVortex]

Yeah, I don't suppose any of UAL's problems might be related to failed merger attempts, dozens of aircraft types, poor customer service, etc... Nah, it must be those few pilots at the top of the list making $250k/yr.

Really, how much management kool-aid are they serving over at YIP nowdays? You sound more like Lorenzo than a line pilot.

The most conservative airline in the industry is ready to file Bk. NWA,,,what is your explanation there.

 

[Mr Zog]

So our tax dollars are supposed to "prop-up" unprofitable business? Thats what regulation was,,,,NO THANKS!

Edit: ps: I have a hard enough time swallowing that I am now going to pay for some United guys pension.

Ohh, I am sorry. I did not know the airline industry was a free-market. Someone please send a memo to BA, Air France, Quantas, Air China, Singapore Airlines, Cathay, etc. All are subsidized by their respective governments....

 

[PCL_128]

The most conservative airline in the industry is ready to file Bk. NWA,,,what is your explanation there.

NWA is going to file bankruptcy just so they can get rid of pension and scope and drastically cut the pay, benefits, and working conditions of all the employee groups. Management is too lazy to fix their worthless business model. It's much easier to pay a bunch of lawyers to take them into CH. 11 so they can balance the books on the backs of the workers. Delta will soon do the same (sorry General, but I think you know it's true). For goodness sake, just look at USAir. If every pilot in the company worked for free with no benefits the airline would still be losing money. THIS IS NOT A LABOR PROBLEM. THIS IS A MANAGEMENT PROBLEM. PLEASE DEVELOPE SOME SELF-RESPECT!!!!

 

[WillowRunVortex]

Ohh, I am sorry. I did not know the airline industry was a free-market. Someone please send a memo to BA, Air France, Quantas, Air China, Singapore Airlines, Cathay, etc. All are subsidized by their respective governments....

I dont know if you you dropped out of high school but the only thing we support in the US is the dairy farmer. Its called CAPITALISM,,,jeez read a book. What you speak of would be a form of SOCIALISM. not good

 

[WillowRunVortex]

NWA is going to file bankruptcy just so they can get rid of pension and scope and drastically cut the pay, benefits, and working conditions of all the employee groups. Management is too lazy to fix their worthless business model. It's much easier to pay a bunch of lawyers to take them into CH. 11 so they can balance the books on the backs of the workers. Delta will soon do the same (sorry General, but I think you know it's true). For goodness sake, just look at USAir. If every pilot in the company worked for free with no benefits the airline would still be losing money. THIS IS NOT A LABOR PROBLEM. THIS IS A MANAGEMENT PROBLEM. PLEASE DEVELOPE SOME SELF-RESPECT!!!!

Where did all the money that nobody had go? its big business,,,gimme gimme gimme,,look at GM same thing. Everyone gets overpaid ,until one day someone actually looks into the coffers and goes ah hold on a minute, theres nothin in here.

 

[PCL_128]

look at GM same thing. Everyone gets overpaid ,until one day someone actually looks into the coffers and goes ah hold on a minute, theres nothin in here.

Sigh... GM is the same situation as the airlines and so is Ford. It's bad management and bad business that's causing these problems, not overpaid workers. GM hasn't produced a decent car in years. Ford's latest offerings to try to compete with Chrysler's big hits fell completely flat. GM and Ford make boring, low quality cars that are overpriced. I say again, this is not about labor costs. This is about lazy and inept management.

 

[WillowRunVortex]

Sigh... GM is the same situation as the airlines and so is Ford. It's bad management and bad business that's causing these problems, not overpaid workers. GM hasn't produced a decent car in years. Ford's latest offerings to try to compete with Chrysler's big hits fell completely flat. GM and Ford make boring, low quality cars that are overpriced. I say again, this is not about labor costs. This is about lazy and inept management.

The expenses for an airline are as follows:

#1- Fuel

#2- Labor costs

#3- Everything else

which is it with this business model shall we (are able to) fix?

 

[PCL_128]

The #1 and #2 expenses for an airline are:

#1- Fuel

#2- Labor costs

which is it with this business model shall we (are able to) fix?

There's your problem, you're thinking like pinheaded management again. There are two sides to the equation: expenses and revenue. It's impossible to cut expenses to the point of saving the airlines, so the only solution is to increase revenue. Now you can debate how best to increase revenue, but however you do it, it must be done. No matter how many times they come at us for concessions they will never make the airline profitable.

Every time they get cost cuts they go right back to the fare wars. Every time they cut the frontline employee's pay then they're pi$$ing off the people that deal directly with the customers. Terrible employee morale does not translate to good customer service. Bad customer service translates to even worse revenue streams. Look at Southwest. They pay their pilots the highest narrowbody rates in the country. They get tons of days off and great benefits. They're the most heavily unionized airline in the country. So why are they not in the crapper like everyone else? Because their management team has a collective IQ of more 100! They have a good business model and understand that treating their employees well pays off tenfold.

You've got to think outside of the box and stop repeating the management talking points. None of the airlines will ever survive if they don't fix their business model instead of attacking labor.

 

[WillowRunVortex]

There's your problem, you're thinking like pinheaded management again. There are two sides to the equation: expenses and revenue. It's impossible to cut expenses to the point of saving the airlines, so the only solution is to increase revenue. Now you can debate how best to increase revenue, but however you do it, it must be done. No matter how many times they come at us for concessions they will never make the airline profitable.

Every time they get cost cuts they go right back to the fare wars. Every time they cut the frontline employee's pay then they're pi$$ing off the people that deal directly with the customers. Terrible employee morale does not translate to good customer service. Bad customer service translates to even worse revenue streams. Look at Southwest. They pay their pilots the highest narrowbody rates in the country. They get tons of days off and great benefits. They're the most heavily unionized airline in the country. So why are they not in the crapper like everyone else? Because their management team has a collective IQ of more 100! They have a good business model and understand that treating their employees well pays off tenfold.

You've got to think outside of the box and stop repeating the management talking points. None of the airlines will ever survive if they don't fix their business model instead of attacking labor.

Ah thank you and I got ya,,,guess what, the public is paying what it is willing to pay for airfare NOW. Anything more and guess what seat/miles go down,,,DRASTICALLY. Sorry but SWA and and the low costs will tell you they are doing just fine thank-you. So raising faires isnt an option! And a industry wide agreement is a Federal Offense.

 

[Crash Pad]

So there I was...

Final approach one engine on fire, shooting an approach down to Cat II mins, my captain is dead... Took a bird strike right in the face... Tower clears me to land but reminds me that landing in a tornado is not a good idea...

"Darn the tornado I have to get this thing on the ground!" I can hear the screams from behind me... all 50 pax are in some stage of panic!

Sound familiar... I don't understand how you can think some pilots could be overpaid. The amount of training and skill to pilot a modern jet from ATL to ORD is unimaginable.

You also have to remeber the top physical condition you have to stay in to keep your medical. I don't know about the rest of the pilots on this board but I train with Lance Armstrong on my days off just to meet the medical requirements.

Don't get me started on schedule... Just last week I only had three days off... That means that I was working for four days. Try and find a doctor or a CEO who is gone for that amount of time. Good luck!

Oh and speaking of responsability. Sure a CEO has to answer to hundreds of share holders or decide to layoff 100,000 workers... I along with a captain am responsible for 50 passengers... on a full flight. One screw up... just one little thing like pushing the push to talk at the wrong time and everyone dies.

YOU WANT ME ON THAT WALL.... YOU NEED ME ON THAT WALL

 

[rptrain]

and you a$$hole, you're lucky to be here!

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

Is that so? How many lives is that "exec" responsible for when he goes to work? How many approaches to mins in pouring rain and howling winds with 400 people sitting behind him does he do each year? How many medical exams and checkrides does he have to do each year to hang on to his livelihood? How many years did he have to make $15k/yr while "paying his dues" while he waited for that executive job?

I think if you take a look a the big picture an exec does effect the lives of others. Because they have the "authority" to run the company they way they want (to a certain degree). A pilot is responsible for their ship, etc. (which if something bad happens could effect the entire company). The exec is responsible for the entire organization so therefore they do effect the lives of others good or bad - and recently mostly bad! An exec's decision impacts the employees, the vendors/people who do business with them, and the customers. Unfortunately, I think the execs lose sight of this and focus on "shareholder" value and Wall Street instead.

 

[castle bravo]

So our tax dollars are supposed to "prop-up" unprofitable business? Thats what regulation was,,,,NO THANKS!

Edit: ps: I have a hard enough time swallowing that I am now going to pay for some United guys pension.

Just take a close look at AMTRAK!!!