How to destroy your airline

[U2FDX]

 

[AlbieF15]

Clownpilot,

Its a free country, and until the moderator steps in you can pretty much say whatever you want on these boards.

However, I have tried since I started reading and posting on these forums to treat it as if I were having a conversation at the airport with fellow pilots. I understand dudes will have differences of opinion here and there, but most folks at least try to keep it professional.

I've made lots of contacts with these boards, even had dinner a few times with some fellow posters. I certainly got TONS of info when I was looking for jobs, and I appreciated the guys (Jeff G, Profile, Ben Dover, Eagleflip, and others) who passed gouge back and forth.

I wish no harm on AA. I have several ANG bros who are currently on furlough, a former OV10 bro who is a 767 FO, and an Auburn roommate who is a captain on the MD88. I jumpseated to SFO last month out of DFW on AA and was impressed with the great service (and thanks for the lift). My point was simply that by forgoing customer service the majors risk losing market share when competition does eventually show up. If you couldn't translate the first post well enough, I was complaining about the poor service history of ASA, and how their ties to Delta might ultimately hurt Delta more than help once competition shows up.

As for the scathing personal attacks--well--post as you best see fit. However, I'd keep in mind a couple of things. First--most guys know who I am, I don't hide behind a screen name and hurl insults. That has allowed me the chance to interact with some pretty cool guys from across the industry (if hanging out or corresponding with non-AA folks interests you). Second, all of us are just a bad physical away from not being airline pilots anymore. I try not to let my identity get too wrapped up in being an "airline pilot" or an "Eagle Driver" or whatever. Being an AA pilot is obviously a very big deal to you, or perhaps you just like to vent. I've met way too many nice P-3 guys (another Auburn buddy is one) to sit here and start "who's the better service/pilot/airframe" BS, but c'mon man...you flew a big piece o' crap across the sky for hours at a time on autopilot, and you always had a "helper". Now you do the same thing at AA for more money. How hard it that? You are one of 10,000 AA pilots and that makes you "elite"? You'll have a lot more fun at airshows, layovers, and in life in general if you can just say "yeah, I'm a pilot too..." and leave it at that.

And I don't play tic tac toe instead of running an airline--I just waterski. You caught me on the beer drinking, however.

 

[smooshfacekitty]

way to go alpie - that summed it up very well. And there was no name calling, bashing of any sort - some people, especially clowns have burrs up their a$$'$ sometimes - i've been following this post and thourougly and enjoying it - all it takes is one bad apple (or clown) to ruin a good post. Great post - keep it up. I'm not an airline pilot nor do I pretend to be, but this thread makes a lot of sense, especially to me, who has to deal with all that you've been talking about. I'd rather fly SWA or JetBlue for the convenience and great customer service, however, sometimes it is not possible, especially when I have to travel abroad and such. I wish the majors would focus more on it - I'd fly UAL (my choice) more often, if they had the low fairs like SWA and the customer service. Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

Regards,

smoosh

 

[JohnDoe]

Ah yes....there he is folks......that delightfully tactfull individual known as Clownpilot. The man, the myth, the legend behind such insightfull tidbits such as "You're an angry little Eagle Troll," and "Please kill yourself." And who can forget these memorable moments: "These darn Eagle Troll Flowthrough Losers," and "....your angry Troll Asses."

Order your copy now before they're all gone............

 

[FastCargo]

Yet other factors...

Albie,

Excellent posts! Your analysis doesn't even include the very real possibility that the Eclipse (small jet, 6 seat, 850k unit cost) will be able to fulfill the promise of an 'air taxi' service.

The book 'Free Flight' explains the current problems of the current airline system, even before 9/11, with analysis that included the fact that trips under 400 miles (I think) actually took longer to fly than drive. I don't want to even know how much that figure has increased post 9/11.

With all the pain that exists now, what passenger who has a choice is willing to put up with bad service? Especially if the 'air taxi' service gets a foothold...

Arrogance, especially now, is not the thing to have. Ask any American car maker, any American consumer electronics maker, IBM...

And like you Albie, I have no wish to see any company fail. I have a LOT of friends in the majors, especially United, and I don't wish a lack of a job for anybody, cause it could have been easily (and could still be easily) me. I hope the companies in trouble can pull out of this funk, because the economy certainly doesn't need help in staying in it...

Fly Safe!

 

[LiveFreeorDie]

Opinions are like....

Opinions are like @$$holes, everyones got one. And arguing on the internet is like being in the Special Olympics, even if you win you still look retarded. I like the opinions on this site, but not so much the @$$holes.

-Eric

 

[Eagleflip]

Yeah Alpie, Opie, or Albie--whatever moniker you are going by this afternoon! (Smoosh, I had a good laugh at that misspelling )

Now on to a very contentious question on this topic.

My question is this: what role did the various pilot's unions have in the current situation? Specifically, did the unions significantly contribute to the economic decline of the majors, or are they simply another factor of equal impact on the current ugly state?

If so, what provides the balance in the equation? By that I mean at what point should a union concede that wage cuts are necessary to ensure the company stays afloat?

I asked this same question in June of 01 on the old board, but had no takers. Things have changed, eh? The current crunch on the industry has been blamed on many things, high labor costs being one. So, I ask again, what's the scoop on unions?

My take on the subject. Should unions exist? Of course. Unions have played an essential role in this industry, just like others, to ensure the rights and needs of workers are respected. I didn't always understand that.

An AA friend of mine explained the need for a union to me several years ago, though. "You live in one of the most perfect socialist systems ever developed," he said, "The US military. They want to ensure you are healthy, safe and more or less happy. They'll do whatever it takes to balance the mission and 'people' issues to make you content, or at the very least, complaining softly. Civilian corporations, especially airlines, are NOT like that. There is no more 'socialist' protection--it is each side on it's own. Management will suck the life out of you if you have no protections. The union provides that protection."

Sounded rather harsh at the time, but it made sense. (Ed. note: Make no mistake--I'm extremely lucky that my current employer is nothing like that illustration, but I acknowledge that other companies are not as employee oriented as JB.)

Nevertheless (and here's where my opinion will likely make me flamed and reviled beyond hope), I think wage pressure is a significant issue to the current situation, and can't be ignored as a causal factor. Pay is not the only topic at blame here, as the above posts indicate. There are LOTS of factors at work, such as fleet mix, hub inefficiencies, and fickle consumer demand. In fact, I believe that our country's economic downturn is the single largest factor in this equation. Here's my main question, though: isn't a pay raise that helps to push a company over the fiscal edge of bankruptcy self-defeating? After all, if you get the raise but help force the company to go under, don't you loose overall? I've seen articles in respected journals (WSJ, NYT) that address United's pay increase as a major factor in their teetering economic situation. Why did both sides let things decline so far?

My sense is that the "pressure relief valve" of wage concessions operates only at the brink of disaster, with US Airways' latest agreement as a prime example. Why so late? Simply put, pilots don't trust management as far as they can throw them (I am fortunate to be excluded from this group) and believe all company-generated pronouncements of fiscal gloom and doom are simply negotiating tools. Some undoubtedly are tricks to dupe unsuspecting workers; other company statements have evidently told the truth. Thus the lack of trust inhibits the free exchange of information, and therefore slows the whole process down. Is that policy the best for all concerned? No, but then again this is the real world, with lots of competing agendas. Much as I may look like PollyAnna, I'm not.

Great "free hand of economics" granddaddy Adam Smith would be aghast at this turn of events, but hey, he's dead and dust in some London cemetary.

In short, union-led wage demands contributed to this problem, but mistrust (on both sides) inhibited prompt negotiations to resolve it. Finally, I don't see a way around this cycle due to longstanding competing and non-congruent objectives, e.g. management wants to make money regardless of worker welfare, and unions want to maximize benefits, no matter the economic impact to the company.

Before you light the torch, please understand the following:
--I believe in the right to unionize and negotiate--if the need exists.
--I believe a pilot should have a superb income.
--I believe that a mindless obsession with money does not contribute to long-term success, no matter the profession--or position.

Most of all--I hope that our bros/sis's currently out of work out there gain their flying jobs back quickly. I take no comfort in the misfortune of others, no matter who they are employed by.

A good pilot's always learning--so educate me with your take on these questions!

And Clownpilot--I don't think anybody out here on the board wants others in the industry to suffer. Sorry you don't understand that.

 

[pilotyip]

Lesson

In one of my management books it stated unions are a sign of bad management.

 

[beytzim]

Great Comments. Here's one topic unmentioned thus far:

When companies are small, they have more motivated individuals. When companies are young, management is more motivated and probably helped start the company. For example, companies like JB, AirTran, and even SW are young and relatively small - their original founders are still alive!

On the other hand, you have companies that have been around for generations. Their employees are in it for the 'buck' (pilots too) and the union is the motivating force to work. Management is simply looking at stock options or golden parachutes. The founding CEOs are dead for decades already.

So....in ten to twenty years from now when JB, Airtran, and SW have all expanded and their founding CEO's and other employees are long gone - you will see the same crap.

I'm not predicting the future. Just a thought.

 

[F18-FDX]

Clown,

What an appropriate screen name, I couldn't have named you better myself. Awfully bitter, aren't we? Must run all the way back to your performance in flight school...

Just to set the record straight, there are plenty of us out here who are exactly where we want to be, not "stuck at a package carrier or crappy regional airline." It may be hard for you to swallow, but not everyone in the world wants to be you. I came to FedEx over AA and DAL for many reasons, not the least of which was historical performance in both up and down economic cycles. I guess I can add one more reason to my list...I don't have to work with a guy like you.


Albie,

Great post, excellent discussion - the reason this forum exists.

 

[#1 Windmilling]

Hey All,
Great discussion here, even with Clownpilot. We are all entitled to our opinion. Here's something I placed on another thread:


Answer the following:

What is most important when "flying" through turbulence?

1- Airspeed

2- Altitude

3- Configuration

4- ATTITUDE

I think number 4 is the right answer......


Right now, JB is doing very well and it has a LOT to do with the attitude of the folks working there.

Happy Flying

-#1W

 

[Clownpilot]

LOL

NOW THAT'S FUNNY.

GOOD ONE.

Ah yes....there he is folks......that delightfully tactfull individual known as Clownpilot. The man, the myth, the legend behind such insightfull tidbits such as "You're an angry little Eagle Troll," and "Please kill yourself." And who can forget these memorable moments: "These darn Eagle Troll Flowthrough Losers," and "....your angry Troll Asses."

Order your copy now before they're all gone............

 

[Clownpilot]

OH YEAH

HMmmmmmmmmm,

Yes I think I know you. Aren't you that guy I saw the other day at the airport? You know, it was about 8 AM and I was walking down the terminal on the way to begin my preflight when I passed you. You were all bleary eyed and walking funny with a hypnotized look on your face. Almost like you had been up all night staring at something. I noticed you were going the other way so obviously you were leaving the airport. Or maybe you were just confused. Anyway, my advice to you is not to stay up all night, it's bad for your health and very tough on your body.

PS
Part of your shirt was untucked too. I hope the curtain in your hotel room didn't have a hole in it. Was it a full moon that night??????

Clown,

What an appropriate screen name, I couldn't have named you better myself. Awfully bitter, aren't we? Must run all the way back to your performance in flight school...

Just to set the record straight, there are plenty of us out here who are exactly where we want to be, not "stuck at a package carrier or crappy regional airline." It may be hard for you to swallow, but not everyone in the world wants to be you. I came to FedEx over AA and DAL for many reasons, not the least of which was historical performance in both up and down economic cycles. I guess I can add one more reason to my list...I don't have to work with a guy like you.


Albie,

Great post, excellent discussion - the reason this forum exists.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Correct me if I'm wrong--I'm showing up late on this thread--but I think one of AlbieF15's main points was that the level of customer service as some of the Regionals is killing their associated Major. Listen Albie, I'm at one of those Regionals right now, and I've got one thing to say to you: you're exactly right. (I can't agree with you about the "breakdowns," though...)

Not long ago in Atlanta, my first officer ran up to the gate to see if he could wrestle a dispatch release away from them. The gate agent was standing there shuffling paper and wasn't looking up. Our hero stood there patiently waiting for her to finish. After a few seconds, still without looking up, she says, "sir, I don't have time to help you right now, you need to go down to the other end of the desk." My F/O was caught off guard. "Excuse me?" he asked. Now she looks up, pauses, and says, "oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know you were a pilot. What can I do for you?"

You mean she would have treated a passenger that way?

Too often, we in the cockpit can see exactly what's going on within our corporate and market structure...but we're trapped behind customer service personnel who are apparently genetically incapable of providing customer service! So, we try to repair what damage we can with big smiles, lots of informative and apologetic P.A. announcements, free booze if necessary...and that's assuming that by now, your intrepid flight crew isn't too pissed off about the two-hour delay to talk to anybody.

I'm not saying that fixing customer service will solve all of our mainline/regional problems, but I do think that if our "leaders" don't start making this a priority, a lot of our mainline/regional problems may become irrelevant. Passengers don't remember flights that went well, but they darned sure remember the ones that didn't.

And you mainline guys who blame us regional guys for the level of service we provide: hey, we're doing the best we can. Unfortunately, as a passenger makes his journey from check-in to baggage claim, there's only so much you can do from the cockpit.

 

[chawbein]

I am not a commercial pilot, but I fly several times per year. When I go somewhere I fly 1. Southwest or if that is not available, 2. Continental. I have had so many bad experiences that I will NEVER fly NWA again. I have spent more time in lines with NWA than with any other airline. I have never been treated more rudely than by NWA ticket agents and flight attendants.

I prefer Southwest because they are efficient (I spend less time in line) and they have a smile on their faces, imagine that, a f*cking smile. I don't expect too much for my $200-$300, just to be checked-in in a timely manner (less than 45 minutes), get a soft drink and some peanuts, and have someone smile when I'm in the airport and on the plane. One time on a SWA flight, we were delayed and the pilot stood up in front of everyone and told jokes on the P.A., amazingly, nobody was b!tching about being delayed.

Sorry, I'm done venting now.

 

[MetroSheriff]

Too often, we in the cockpit can see exactly what's going on within our corporate and market structure...but we're trapped behind customer service personnel who are apparently genetically incapable of providing customer service! So, we try to repair what damage we can with big smiles, lots of informative and apologetic P.A. announcements, free booze if necessary...and that's assuming that by now, your intrepid flight crew isn't too pissed off about the two-hour delay to talk to anybody.

I'm not saying that fixing customer service will solve all of our mainline/regional problems, but I do think that if our "leaders" don't start making this a priority, a lot of our mainline/regional problems may become irrelevant. Passengers don't remember flights that went well, but they darned sure remember the ones that didn't.

And you mainline guys who blame us regional guys for the level of service we provide: hey, we're doing the best we can. Unfortunately, as a passenger makes his journey from check-in to baggage claim, there's only so much you can do from the cockpit.

Typhoon,

Very well put.

As one of the front line, regional "team members", I find the level of customer service appalling. Often, despite the best efforts of the flight crew (FA included), you just know the pax are walking away vowing to never fly our airline again.

Perhaps I am crazy, but I would forego a miniscule payraise, IF there was someway to gaurantee that mgt would use the $ to improve the quality of service that they provide.

I am not talking about leather seats in the RJ. Personally, the middle seat, even an aisle seat, in coach on a crowded 757 is no more comfy than an RJ REGARDLESS of stage length. I am talking about good old fashioned customer service. A gate agent with a smile and perhaps an inkling of desire to do their job with some professionalism and pride would be a fantastic start.

All the payraises in the world are not going to help me if I get furloughed because the pax decide to take greyhound because they are treated better and have a chance of getting to the destination on time. Not to mention the possibility of ALL the flying going to Skywest because they provide a quality product that Delta is proud to market.

Try flying thru SLC sometime, after dealing with the b00bs in ATL, you'll think you died and went to heaven.

 

[KingAirer]

How much of JBlue's and Aitrans success can you atribute to not having to pay the large amounts of retirements to pilots who have been retired for many years? What will happen when they hit their 20th (or XX) birthday and their airplanes are getting old and they are paying more people on the retirement list then current list?

An honest question

 

[Timebuilder]

A great thread, and for the most part, a civil one.

Costs and service have always been the watchwords in any industry. The carriers with a coordinated effort between the employee and management will survive.

It's a shame that a bunch of us can't get together and start our own airline. So much thoughtful talent here...

 

[TurboS7]

Thanks AirTran

I just jumpseated down from MSP to FLL. At MSP I had the choice to jumpseat between Airtran, CO, and ATA. The gates were all next to each other leaving within 20 minutes and the JS was availiable on each, I guess a commuters wet dream, whatever.
I decided to try AirTran just to see how they were doing. I'll just put aisde the fact that as a fellow pilot the flight crews and cabin crews treated me like royalty, this includes the gate agents also. I got to sit in first class by the insistance of the cabin and flight crews, I offered to sit in the back. Needless to say I was 'headsup" to see how they treated the customer.
AirTran went way out of their way to show appreciation for the customer. I fly on SWA a lot and their customer service attitude on my flights beat SWA. We were late out of MSP and people were nevous about making their connections. The FA's handled these inquires with knowledge, honesty, and grace. In the end AirTran held all the tight fllights so that everyone was able to make their connections. Now that is a real airline, putting the customer first over the schedule.
On the leg from ATL to FLL we had a Delta guy jumpseating on the flight with us, I guess that speaks for itself. For all you Airtran guys thanks for a great day, keep up the great work, and people do notice the diffrence. At this point you are light years ahead of DAL, UAL, and even AA. They are still trying to get it all figured out.

 

[AlbieF15]

Turbo,

Your experiences mirror mine in ATL exactly. AT has the
gracious, take care of the customer attitude. ASA (as mentioned in a previous post) many times won't make eye contact with pax when they get busy at a desk. Where would you spend $250 on your next ticket given the choice?

As for retirement pay, salaries, etc...that is not relevant to customer service. Nothing says a highly paid CSA (union or non union) can't provide as good or better service than the underpaid one--and common sense says they SHOULD. If ASA is paying bottom wages in ATL, then that is what they are getting. If AirTran is "low cost", then why is there service so much better than the more expensive majors? It doesn't take MONEY to be nice to pax...it takes a committment by the company leadership. I think that is the issue here to a greater extent than pay--as a matter of fact I don't know how the whole "customer service stinks" thread morphed into pay scales at majors verses upstarts. Those flight cancellations don't come from CSAs...that comes from somewhere higher up. That issue by itself if the #1 gripe I hear in small markets about ASA.

As for the pilots at regionals--I'm on your side. In a perfect world, we'd take the 777 Captains pay, divide it by X seats, and give you a similar rate for your 33, 50, 78 seats etc. This would give you guys a well deserved pay raise, and would eliminate the articifical discount the airlines get by flying the smaller planes. Then the flight managers could match airframe to customer requirements and profitabilty, without the artifical "C" scale that is currently in place.

Metro/Typhoon--most of my jumpseating is on regionals (small town boy here) and I see first hand the hard work you guys do. Skywest does have a good rep...I hope to fly them sometime soon. Support your unions and keep the pressure on. As the majors try to squeeze mainline (your future job, most likely) you applying pressure on wages there will either A) raise your pay or B) eliminate some regional jobs and add major jobs--helping you out or C) Both! At least that's the opinion of a not so well informed, beer swilling, tic tac toe playing, night flying...well...you get the picture.

For anyone interested in Fedex, the dirty little secret is over 50% of our flying is day trips now....1-3pm launches and roll into the hotel (and bar) around 10pm-1am. I've been at FDX only 8 months, and I fly days since there have been 200 hired since Jan. How many times do you have to be furloughed to be a 'real airline pilot?" If the answer is one, I'll take not being part of the "real crowd". So...it wasn't me that got caught bleared eyed at 0630 as CP staggered off with his seniority number 300 (age 54) flight attendents to the airport...I was still in bed ordering a room service breakfast to fuel me up before my 10am 2 hour workout. A man's gotta have some strength for that 2.5 hours of block time they are making my fly every day.