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How to destroy your airline

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Hey All,
Great discussion here, even with Clownpilot. We are all entitled to our opinion. Here's something I placed on another thread:


Answer the following:

What is most important when "flying" through turbulence?

1- Airspeed

2- Altitude

3- Configuration

4- ATTITUDE

I think number 4 is the right answer......


Right now, JB is doing very well and it has a LOT to do with the attitude of the folks working there.

Happy Flying

-#1W
 
LOL

NOW THAT'S FUNNY.

GOOD ONE.



JohnDoe said:
Ah yes....there he is folks......that delightfully tactfull individual known as Clownpilot. The man, the myth, the legend behind such insightfull tidbits such as "You're an angry little Eagle Troll," and "Please kill yourself." And who can forget these memorable moments: "These darn Eagle Troll Flowthrough Losers," and "....your angry Troll Asses."

Order your copy now before they're all gone............
:D :D
 
OH YEAH

HMmmmmmmmmm,

Yes I think I know you. Aren't you that guy I saw the other day at the airport? You know, it was about 8 AM and I was walking down the terminal on the way to begin my preflight when I passed you. You were all bleary eyed and walking funny with a hypnotized look on your face. Almost like you had been up all night staring at something. I noticed you were going the other way so obviously you were leaving the airport. Or maybe you were just confused. Anyway, my advice to you is not to stay up all night, it's bad for your health and very tough on your body.

PS
Part of your shirt was untucked too. I hope the curtain in your hotel room didn't have a hole in it. Was it a full moon that night??????






F18-FDX said:
Clown,

What an appropriate screen name, I couldn't have named you better myself. Awfully bitter, aren't we? Must run all the way back to your performance in flight school...

Just to set the record straight, there are plenty of us out here who are exactly where we want to be, not "stuck at a package carrier or crappy regional airline." It may be hard for you to swallow, but not everyone in the world wants to be you. I came to FedEx over AA and DAL for many reasons, not the least of which was historical performance in both up and down economic cycles. I guess I can add one more reason to my list...I don't have to work with a guy like you.


Albie,

Great post, excellent discussion - the reason this forum exists.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong--I'm showing up late on this thread--but I think one of AlbieF15's main points was that the level of customer service as some of the Regionals is killing their associated Major. Listen Albie, I'm at one of those Regionals right now, and I've got one thing to say to you: you're exactly right. (I can't agree with you about the "breakdowns," though...)

Not long ago in Atlanta, my first officer ran up to the gate to see if he could wrestle a dispatch release away from them. The gate agent was standing there shuffling paper and wasn't looking up. Our hero stood there patiently waiting for her to finish. After a few seconds, still without looking up, she says, "sir, I don't have time to help you right now, you need to go down to the other end of the desk." My F/O was caught off guard. "Excuse me?" he asked. Now she looks up, pauses, and says, "oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know you were a pilot. What can I do for you?"

:eek: You mean she would have treated a passenger that way?

Too often, we in the cockpit can see exactly what's going on within our corporate and market structure...but we're trapped behind customer service personnel who are apparently genetically incapable of providing customer service! So, we try to repair what damage we can with big smiles, lots of informative and apologetic P.A. announcements, free booze if necessary...and that's assuming that by now, your intrepid flight crew isn't too pissed off about the two-hour delay to talk to anybody.

I'm not saying that fixing customer service will solve all of our mainline/regional problems, but I do think that if our "leaders" don't start making this a priority, a lot of our mainline/regional problems may become irrelevant. Passengers don't remember flights that went well, but they darned sure remember the ones that didn't.

And you mainline guys who blame us regional guys for the level of service we provide: hey, we're doing the best we can. Unfortunately, as a passenger makes his journey from check-in to baggage claim, there's only so much you can do from the cockpit.
 
I am not a commercial pilot, but I fly several times per year. When I go somewhere I fly 1. Southwest or if that is not available, 2. Continental. I have had so many bad experiences that I will NEVER fly NWA again. I have spent more time in lines with NWA than with any other airline. I have never been treated more rudely than by NWA ticket agents and flight attendants.

I prefer Southwest because they are efficient (I spend less time in line) and they have a smile on their faces, imagine that, a f*cking smile. I don't expect too much for my $200-$300, just to be checked-in in a timely manner (less than 45 minutes), get a soft drink and some peanuts, and have someone smile when I'm in the airport and on the plane. One time on a SWA flight, we were delayed and the pilot stood up in front of everyone and told jokes on the P.A., amazingly, nobody was b!tching about being delayed.

Sorry, I'm done venting now.
 
Typhoon1244 said:


Too often, we in the cockpit can see exactly what's going on within our corporate and market structure...but we're trapped behind customer service personnel who are apparently genetically incapable of providing customer service! So, we try to repair what damage we can with big smiles, lots of informative and apologetic P.A. announcements, free booze if necessary...and that's assuming that by now, your intrepid flight crew isn't too pissed off about the two-hour delay to talk to anybody.

I'm not saying that fixing customer service will solve all of our mainline/regional problems, but I do think that if our "leaders" don't start making this a priority, a lot of our mainline/regional problems may become irrelevant. Passengers don't remember flights that went well, but they darned sure remember the ones that didn't.

And you mainline guys who blame us regional guys for the level of service we provide: hey, we're doing the best we can. Unfortunately, as a passenger makes his journey from check-in to baggage claim, there's only so much you can do from the cockpit.

Typhoon,

Very well put.

As one of the front line, regional "team members", I find the level of customer service appalling. Often, despite the best efforts of the flight crew (FA included), you just know the pax are walking away vowing to never fly our airline again.

Perhaps I am crazy, but I would forego a miniscule payraise, IF there was someway to gaurantee that mgt would use the $ to improve the quality of service that they provide.

I am not talking about leather seats in the RJ. Personally, the middle seat, even an aisle seat, in coach on a crowded 757 is no more comfy than an RJ REGARDLESS of stage length. I am talking about good old fashioned customer service. A gate agent with a smile and perhaps an inkling of desire to do their job with some professionalism and pride would be a fantastic start.

All the payraises in the world are not going to help me if I get furloughed because the pax decide to take greyhound because they are treated better and have a chance of getting to the destination on time. Not to mention the possibility of ALL the flying going to Skywest because they provide a quality product that Delta is proud to market.

Try flying thru SLC sometime, after dealing with the b00bs in ATL, you'll think you died and went to heaven.
 
How much of JBlue's and Aitrans success can you atribute to not having to pay the large amounts of retirements to pilots who have been retired for many years? What will happen when they hit their 20th (or XX) birthday and their airplanes are getting old and they are paying more people on the retirement list then current list?

An honest question
 
A great thread, and for the most part, a civil one.

Costs and service have always been the watchwords in any industry. The carriers with a coordinated effort between the employee and management will survive.

It's a shame that a bunch of us can't get together and start our own airline. So much thoughtful talent here...
 
Thanks AirTran

I just jumpseated down from MSP to FLL. At MSP I had the choice to jumpseat between Airtran, CO, and ATA. The gates were all next to each other leaving within 20 minutes and the JS was availiable on each, I guess a commuters wet dream, whatever.
I decided to try AirTran just to see how they were doing. I'll just put aisde the fact that as a fellow pilot the flight crews and cabin crews treated me like royalty, this includes the gate agents also. I got to sit in first class by the insistance of the cabin and flight crews, I offered to sit in the back. Needless to say I was 'headsup" to see how they treated the customer.
AirTran went way out of their way to show appreciation for the customer. I fly on SWA a lot and their customer service attitude on my flights beat SWA. We were late out of MSP and people were nevous about making their connections. The FA's handled these inquires with knowledge, honesty, and grace. In the end AirTran held all the tight fllights so that everyone was able to make their connections. Now that is a real airline, putting the customer first over the schedule.
On the leg from ATL to FLL we had a Delta guy jumpseating on the flight with us, I guess that speaks for itself. For all you Airtran guys thanks for a great day, keep up the great work, and people do notice the diffrence. At this point you are light years ahead of DAL, UAL, and even AA. They are still trying to get it all figured out.
 
Turbo,

Your experiences mirror mine in ATL exactly. AT has the
gracious, take care of the customer attitude. ASA (as mentioned in a previous post) many times won't make eye contact with pax when they get busy at a desk. Where would you spend $250 on your next ticket given the choice?

As for retirement pay, salaries, etc...that is not relevant to customer service. Nothing says a highly paid CSA (union or non union) can't provide as good or better service than the underpaid one--and common sense says they SHOULD. If ASA is paying bottom wages in ATL, then that is what they are getting. If AirTran is "low cost", then why is there service so much better than the more expensive majors? It doesn't take MONEY to be nice to pax...it takes a committment by the company leadership. I think that is the issue here to a greater extent than pay--as a matter of fact I don't know how the whole "customer service stinks" thread morphed into pay scales at majors verses upstarts. Those flight cancellations don't come from CSAs...that comes from somewhere higher up. That issue by itself if the #1 gripe I hear in small markets about ASA.

As for the pilots at regionals--I'm on your side. In a perfect world, we'd take the 777 Captains pay, divide it by X seats, and give you a similar rate for your 33, 50, 78 seats etc. This would give you guys a well deserved pay raise, and would eliminate the articifical discount the airlines get by flying the smaller planes. Then the flight managers could match airframe to customer requirements and profitabilty, without the artifical "C" scale that is currently in place.

Metro/Typhoon--most of my jumpseating is on regionals (small town boy here) and I see first hand the hard work you guys do. Skywest does have a good rep...I hope to fly them sometime soon. Support your unions and keep the pressure on. As the majors try to squeeze mainline (your future job, most likely) you applying pressure on wages there will either A) raise your pay or B) eliminate some regional jobs and add major jobs--helping you out or C) Both! At least that's the opinion of a not so well informed, beer swilling, tic tac toe playing, night flying...well...you get the picture.

For anyone interested in Fedex, the dirty little secret is over 50% of our flying is day trips now....1-3pm launches and roll into the hotel (and bar) around 10pm-1am. I've been at FDX only 8 months, and I fly days since there have been 200 hired since Jan. How many times do you have to be furloughed to be a 'real airline pilot?" If the answer is one, I'll take not being part of the "real crowd". So...it wasn't me that got caught bleared eyed at 0630 as CP staggered off with his seniority number 300 (age 54) flight attendents to the airport...I was still in bed ordering a room service breakfast to fuel me up before my 10am 2 hour workout. A man's gotta have some strength for that 2.5 hours of block time they are making my fly every day.
 
Last edited:
Albie
My problem has always been that I am adroit at pointing out problems with out real solutions to them, aviation is no different.
While customer service may be where the rubber meets the road, whats ruining the airline encompasses far more than that. A general malaise prevails due in large part to 9/11. If or when it lifts(discounting foreign influence) depends greatly on management, unions and other concerned parties being interspective and finding out what they can do. We as an industry are still pointing fingers at the other side and blaming them. Until a little soul searching is done and a concensus is reached the industry will continue to sink.
 
Alpie,

I agree with a lot of what you say, in concept. I do have some questions though. You seem to base your comments on what you define as "bad service" and you focus on ASA. Is it just ASA or is the problem systemic?

I work for another carrier that is now owned by Delta, i.e., Comair. I can't really pick on ASA, simply because I haven't flown on ASA that much. The few times that I have did not involve PNS so I know nothing about that station, in terms of what ASA does or doesn't do there. I know a little about what Comair does there, or perhaps I should say "did" there in the past.

On my limited times on ASA, it has always involved ATL as a change over point. I would have to agree that service is atrocious there. One problem that seems self-evident to me is insufficient gate space. However, there is (IMO) a different problem also and it's a people problem. I think every airline in Atlanta has a "people problem" when it comes to customer service, but ASA does seem to have more than it's share.

Before Comair was purchased by Delta we, the employees, had great pride in our Company and our jobs. Yes, there were problems and disagreements with management but candidly, they were seldom reflected in customer service. Today, as a subsidiary of Delta, we do lots of things that frankly would never have been tolerated when we were simply Comair. I don't see the change in ownership as being a positive thing, when it comes to customer service. Many Comair people have lost the feeling, the motivation and the loyalty that we had for our Company. We changed from being somebody in our own little world, to being nobody (and treated as such) in Delta's big world. IMO, service has suffered significantly as a consequence. Just my opinion.

I admit to prejudice and it is difficult to judge others and natural to prefer your own. Nevertheless, I do think it is fair to say that before it was acquired by Delta, Comair could rightfully claim that the service and treatment provided to our customers was equal to any, including Delta mainline. Our goal was never to be "equal", but always a little better and we achieved that. Of course we didn't have "first class" amenities and never would have. However, we were there when we were supposed to be more than 98% of the time. We left when we were supposed to leave. We didn't lose peoples baggage nearly as often as mother Delta, or for that matter anyone else does.

Our flight attendants always managed to smile even in the worst of circumstances and treated our passengers with "kid gloves". Our ramp people worked for peanuts, but they had the same attitude that SWA ramp people have and went out of their way to do their part and make things work. Our pilots were proud of their Company and its progress. They were also proud of its potential and, for the most part, wanted to be a part of that and participate in our own future. We were happy to be "building" from nothing "The Best Little Airline in America". We didn't make the "big bucks" of the major airlines and we knew we never would. Just like SWA pilots know that they will always fly only 737s (or whatever takes their place in the future), we were not (again in the majority) pining over somebody else's airplanes or jobs. Our focus was in the success of our own Company. Many of us, self included, made more money in our Company's stock than we were paid to fly (something that is always overlooked). Most of that died on the day we were acquired.

It was great to be "a part of something" and we were happy with being a gold fish in our little pond. Circumstance beyond the control of either our management or our people caused us to lose our airline. We were not "accepted" by our new masters and, as pilots, we soon discovered that our imagined "brothers" were in fact our enemies, who looked down on us and basically hated our guts. They didn't hesitate to tell us at every opportunity. In other words, our entrepernurial spirit and sense of belonging to something worth while, was summarily squashed. If that has translated into inferior service, is it any wonder?

When you remove a diamond from is carefully crafted mount of solid gold and place it in a poorly designed brass setting, it is still a diamond, but few can tell it from a zircon. Dump in a sack full of zircons and brass rings and before too long, you won't be able to identify it without scientific analysis.

We went from having a carefully orchestrated business plan that filled our airplanes with happy customers that kept coming back, to a system of organized chaos, run by people that don't understand the segment of the business that we are in and, in the main, resent our very presence and what do you get?

Comair now serves Atlanta, something that we didn't do before. What we provide out of ATL is not much better than what ASA provides. There are no Comair people there, except those on board the aircraft. The ramp people are lethargic, the CSAs are surly and unfriendly, etc., etc. We can get an airplane to ATL on time or even early, but to get it out of ATL seems to be a near impossibility. I have no doubt whatever that if the old Comair mangement was running that show, we would either fix those problems or stop serving Atlanta. It disrupts a big percentage of our downline operation and is nothing short of a disaster. Our current management doesn't seem to know or, if they know, doesn't seem to care.

Delta management may be great at running a global airline, but they know little about running an efficient small airline and, it shows.

I hate to dwell on "the past", but I don't know another way to address the questions you have raised. Yesterday, we often had problems at stations where we had to buy our handling and customer service from "other airlines" (among them Delta). When those problems were not quickly resolved, we put our own people in the station and eliminated the problem. Service was our only business and our management knew that the welfare of our Company depended on it. So did every employee, with rare exception. We had the same kind of motivation that SWA people seem to have and it worked. We built the most profitable airline in the country. That is now "history".

When we were forced to "sell" our Company, our CEO told me (personally) that things would never be the same. We would continue to grow, but the product we proudly provided would be lost in the process. He wasn't wrong.

We experienced a pilot strike that lasted way too long. Our "new owners" forced that strike to occur and made it last far longer than it should have. They "saved" 50 million dollars by not giving in to what they called our "unreasonable demands". They threw away 700 million dollars (their number) of the shareholder's money to do it. We got little and they lost much. Most importantly, they lost the loyalty of the employees, not just the pilots either. They call it a victory. I call it stupidity.

What the pilots sought they had already been seeking for two years before Comair was acquired. Nothing was changed or "bumped up" because of the Delta purchase. I can't prove it, but I firmly believe that if Delta had NOT purchased the Company, we may still have had a strike, but it certainly would not have become a war and would never have lasted for the time that it did. Comair itself could never have absorbed a $700 million strike and Comair management nor Comair pilots would never have caused one. Our management was not going to destroy the Company over a dispute with its pilots. The pilots would never have destroyed Comair over a dispute with management. We both knew that. Delta's management didn't care what happened to Comair or to Comair's pilots. Comair's pilots didn't care what happened to Delta, and there you have it.

Bad service is the product of bad management and employees that "don't care". The atmosphere is controlled by management. People, i.e., employees, will do anything for a Company that cares about them. They will "give" far more than they get. The SWA model seems to recognize that fact. The Comair model recognized it too. The Delta model once did, but apparently it doesn't any more. It certainly never did with respect to the former employees of Comair, who in fact are now Delta employees, not recognized as such. The "Delta Family" was executed by Delta management. Sometimes you can lose a lot more money by trying to make unwise economies at the expense of product quality. In the old fashioned world we called it "penny wise and pound foolish."

Perhaps the same is true of ASA employees. I don't really know enough about ASA so I can't criticize them directly. I hope I'm wrong in our case as well as in their case. Sadly I doubt it.

The airline business is a service business. You are correct when you infer that the only thing we have to sell is "good service". That's the product. We have the tools (good airplanes and good people) but we don't have the motivation any more. The restaurant business is also a service business. You can buy the best raw materials and have a nice facility, but if the cook is lousy and the waiters don't care, it won't be long before your "restaurant" becomes just another MacDonald's. Most people know that MacDonald's is not a "restaurant", it's a fast food joint, with bad food and no "service", but it's cheap. Is that what Delta management wants?

Cheap tickets are NOT the answer. We have to be better than Brand X. We are not any more. I think you've touched a nerve with your post. I don't pretend to know how to run an airline, but I can sure see when things are going the way they should.

Southwest is somewhat of a rarity. Seldom does a successful mom-and-pop operation become a bemoth without losing the touch that makes it special. SWA seems to have done it. I wonder why?
 
First, let me say that I'm thrilled to see this thread. The majors (employees and stockholders) had better look at what they are doing and how they are doing it. This isn't going to be like Enron where the upper management killed the business. The employees make an airline run and make customers come back. Now, a six million bonus for the CEO of US Air is BS and we all know it. However, if everyone who is at the working end of that organization takes ownership of their job, then they stand a fighting chance. SWA and Jet Blue are eating the major's lunch because they perform at a reasonable price. The employees are the single biggest asset to each of those companies and the reason people look to them for their travel needs.

The business travel market was heading downhill before the 11th. The economy was in recession long before "W" took office and will take time to recover. Security plays a huge part in getting this customer back in the air. The industry MUST make the system user friendly or the market will find a way around flying like the internet or charters. I can think or two large east coast companies who will fly middle management on the corporate aircraft. One even mirrors a Delta Schedule. The reason for this is that flying from a terminal has become wasted time when someone has to show 2 hours early for a one hour flight.

IMHO

Steve
 
Capn Lucky said:
SWA and Jet Blue are eating the major's lunch because they perform at a reasonable price.
And they don't make promises they can't keep.
 
AlbieF15,

There is no question about it, ASA gate agents are amongst the worst. I have had several problems with them and it seems to only get worse, yet ASA sets new records for passengers flown each and every month. I have a question though, what airline do you work for and how is the customer service there? Also, I disagree with one point you made way earlier, I believe the majority of passengers only care about one thing, PRICE. All the people I talk to make reference to the ticket cost first. I don't think the regionals are in as much trouble as you think. They are currently competing effectively in the worst of times. They are as recession proof as an aircraft can get. I respect your opinion very much, but disagree on the future of airline travel. When the economy picks up, the majors will be in a position to smother jb and airtan, probably not sw though. Think about it, Delta can compete with a range from 50 seats to 300. I believe the future is secure for Delta and ASA. Not cocky, just confident.
 

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