How much would a Falcon 7X First officer pay be

[BoilerUP]

I am NOT making a 121 vs 91 argument. I'm just refuting the contention that regional pilots are unsafe and inexperienced. It's simply not the case.

...which anybody who has ever flown for a regional airline knows.

 

[NCherches]

Do you realize that a junior CA at Comair or Eagle has at least 10,000 hours in their logbook? Most have significantly more than that and when I say junior I'm talking about guys with 10+ years with the company. I would guess that most (meaning at least 51%) of the CAs at Comair have upwards of 15,000 TT. I personally know dozens of FOs at Comair that have at least 8000 TT and aren't senior enough to hold CA. Even at the places with supposedly quick upgrades like Republic the junior CAs have at least 5000 hours and usually a lot more...

This is rare in the Regional's... VERY RARE!

 

[LegacyDriver]

Part 121 has to train to the lowest common denominator. Bad 121 pilots live by seniority, bad 91 pilots get fired.

What an inaccurate statement.

If 121 people are trained to the lowest common denominator then that denominator is a bigger number than I've seen elsewhere.

Bad 121 pilots bust the ride and are gone. Bad 91 pilots squeak by because they can't fail the rides. I know more than a few 91 guys who couldn't pass a checkride at the worst "bottom feeder" 121 Regional, yet they keep passing at FSI because their employer is paying big bucks to train them. Won't work at 121 cuz they'll just pink you and stick another person in there (and probably for less money).

I found it a far easier transition from 121 to 135 to 91 than I would have the other way around. 121 training prepared me far better for 91 than 91 would have prepped me for 121. The techniques I learned in 121 made 135 and 91 a breeze. Landing a plane is landing a plane, whether you do it at the same airport five times a day or five different ones you've never seen before...

 

[LegacyDriver]

...which anybody who has ever flown for a regional airline knows.

And which apparently (as judged by this thread) most people who haven't flown for a regional do NOT.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

What an inaccurate statement.

If 121 people are trained to the lowest common denominator then that denominator is a bigger number than I've seen elsewhere.

Bad 121 pilots bust the ride and are gone. Bad 91 pilots squeak by because they can't fail the rides. I know more than a few 91 guys who couldn't pass a checkride at the worst "bottom feeder" 121 Regional, yet they keep passing at FSI because their employer is paying big bucks to train them. Won't work at 121 cuz they'll just pink you and stick another person in there (and probably for less money).

I found it a far easier transition from 121 to 135 to 91 than I would have the other way around. 121 training prepared me far better for 91 than 91 would have prepped me for 121. The techniques I learned in 121 made 135 and 91 a breeze. Landing a plane is landing a plane, whether you do it at the same airport five times a day or five different ones you've never seen before...

The fact that people think any training is difficult is kinda concerning....having been through 91,135 and 121 I can say they were all pretty straightforward.

The 121 school I went to had a bunch of CFI's/freight pilots who were worried to death and thought they had to lock themselves down for 60 days and study to fly an ATR or an RJ. Maybe they had to...whatever works for ya. They kept talking about "drinking from a firehose"..etc...seemed like a lot of BS pilot talk to me. It really was not too difficult.

FSI/CAE etc may be a slower, more casual pace, but the level of pilot these is often a bit more experienced than at a regional new-hire groundschool? After getting a few type ratings, a new one just isn't much of a challenge...more mind numbing than anything else? Most 3-4 week corporate initials I have been through were about 2 weeks overdone, and poorly presented.

Comparisons can go on all day - compare Gulfstream airlines to Delta airlines? compare an oddball 91 dept run by hicks to a standardized well run dept? etc etc it can go on all day....follow the money...91,135,121, whatever..in general, low pay attracts low talent.

Either way, landing a plane in a little wind or completing a pilot ground school just aren't lofty accomplishments in life.

 

[LegacyDriver]

The fact that people think any training is difficult is kinda concerning....having been through 91,135 and 121 I can say they were all pretty straightforward.

You're an idiot. I love you, but you are so f'ing stupid here.

In 121 we got a 60 min warmup (after a 4 hour deadhead with min rest) and had to fly to ATP standards with PASS/FAIL criteria. You messed up the ENTRY to a steep turn and you were pinked. DONE. Retrain. You don't pass, you're fired.

Part 135 and 91 were three/five sim sessions (91 was at least five, 135 was at most three) THEN a ride and if you bust a maneuver you retrain *THEN* try again, continue. "Train to proficiency."

You are in a dream world if you think that these are the same things. They're not. When I upgraded to Captain half the people in my class busted. Half of those didn't even requal as F/Os. In Part 91 one of the WORST pilots I have ever flown with in my life is now a Falcon 7X Captain. As*hole can't find his own as*hole with both hands.

There is no comparison.

SI/CAE etc may be a slower, more casual pace, but the level of pilot these is often a bit more experienced than at a regional new-hire groundschool?

And damned sure should fly like he is. But often they don't. A Regional *CAPTAIN* has to be an ATP at the drop of a hat. NO "casual" pace. Sink or swim b*tch.

 

[DC3Flyer]

You're an idiot. I love you, but you are so f'ing stupid here.

In 121 we got a 60 min warmup (after a 4 hour deadhead with min rest) and had to fly to ATP standards with PASS/FAIL criteria. You messed up the ENTRY to a steep turn and you were pinked. DONE. Retrain. You don't pass, you're fired.

Part 135 and 91 were three/five sim sessions (91 was at least five, 135 was at most three) THEN a ride and if you bust a maneuver you retrain *THEN* try again, continue. "Train to proficiency."

You are in a dream world if you think that these are the same things. They're not. When I upgraded to Captain half the people in my class busted. Half of those didn't even requal as F/Os. In Part 91 one of the WORST pilots I have ever flown with in my life is now a Falcon 7X Captain. As*hole can't find his own as*hole with both hands.

There is no comparison.



And damned sure should fly like he is. But often they don't. A Regional *CAPTAIN* has to be an ATP at the drop of a hat. NO "casual" pace. Sink or swim b*tch.

You're missing the point here man....once somebody has a little experience in any type of aircraft...a checkride is basically a checkride. A steep turn is a steep turn no matter if your 121 or 91. There are only so many different things that an examiner can do to you on a ride...it's not like you're landing on the moon for the first time. Relax a little dude and take the chip off your shoulder...damn.

 

[BoilerUP]

I still maintain its not difficult to hop into a simulator and fly to ATP standards in an airplane you're typed on or otherwise familiar with.

The big difference between a 121/135 checkride and a 91 checkride is most often the air carrier checkride is jeopardy, while the 91 check is not. Because of this, some 91 pilots don't prepare as well as they would if their jobs were on the line.

Another big difference is the attitude of those doing the checking - everybody who has ever worked for a 121 carrier has horror stories about that guy in the training department whose ego required them to constantly show how much more they knew about the plane than those being checked, and/or was known for busting people for the grayest of discretionary reasons. Part 91 pilots whose companies are paying big bucks to be trained and checked aren't going to tolerate a smartass, know-it-all TCE like airline guys have to with their company check airmen...but those same part 91 pilots will respect the TCE who is professional but thorough, tough but fair.

There is a reason why AQP and its "train to proficiency" methodology is gaining traction in the 121 world...

 

[Gulfstream 200]

"deadhead and pinked after a steep turn"...
"man, half the class busted"...
"requal as F/O's".....

....jesus give it a rest, Captain. I love you too, Top Gun, but thats just stupid talk. lol. Like the guy above said, its not like you are landing on the moon here.

Thinking ATP standards are setting the bar high is pretty funny. Not a single person I have ever been through FSI/CAE with flew below those standards. Not one ever needed a retest, an extra sim session etc, etc...not one in the 8 type ratings and 30+ recurrents I have been through. Some were military, some airline, some civilian...didn't matter. Some were a bit sharper than others, etc..but all get/got the job done...Maybe you just worked with morons? (yes I have met a few of them) I have also been to a 121 regional airline school, and it was no harder than FSI or CAE. You seem to struggle a lot LD, maybe its simply not the economy, the airplane, the crosswind, the idiots you work with, etc etc etc???

Put down the drinks, boozing and posting on pilot message boards dosen't usually have a good outcome......You are once again starting to sound like a high school football player talking about the big game 20yrs ago.

"when I flew the Legacy"..(crying in your beer)

 

[LegacyDriver]

You're missing the point here man....once somebody has a little experience in any type of aircraft...a checkride is basically a checkride. A steep turn is a steep turn no matter if your 121 or 91. There are only so many different things that an examiner can do to you on a ride...it's not like you're landing on the moon for the first time. Relax a little dude and take the chip off your shoulder...damn.

Dream world brother.

Slats and Lubbock wouldn't make it five minutes into a 121 F/O ride...

I've seen it.

Lubbock for example..................took more than 1:15 of *MY* time during our Sim 1 Recurrent and then called the CP and asked for more time because, "LD didn't finish."

Well no sh*t I didn't finish. I only had :45 to do 2 : 00 of sim stuff and I still got 90 pct done any way.

That sh*t doesn't fly in 121. You get :60 each and if you f*ck it you're done.

The Safety Officer (a USAF F-4 Wild Weasel and C-5 driver with combat time in the Storm) was begging me to write the guy up....because after 22 years in the same company he can't pass a recurrent without the sim instructor helping him.

Sorry, bro. "Only in 91."