How do you know?(scabs)

[CSY Mon]

so I guess I don't need any history lessons from you,

Can't argue with a guy who don't know the difference between a question and a history lesson.

 

[CSY Mon]

You think the only pilots that have moral cancer are scabs?

NO!

How do you classify them or justify their actions?

I don't.

How about their scab like green slipping while their junior brethren are on furlough?

Yeah, seen the same over at AA.

Look, I don't have the answers to all your questions, I just don't like scabs and did a bit of venting on that subject.

No doubt there are other situations where greedy guys keep screwing their brothers.
Don't know how these guys can look themselfes in the mirror.

 

[Spooky 1]

Uh, you're going to have to find a universal definition for "scab" if this issue will ever be dismissed. According to Jack London, anyone in a capitalist society is a scab...anyone. So, assuming you agree with Mr. London, who has a storied background in labor and socialism, you're going to have to start a revolution.

Thus the generous laborer, giving more of a day's work for less return (measured in terms of food and shelter), threatens the life of his less generous brother laborer, and at the best, if he does not destroy that life, he diminishes it. Whereupon the less generous laborer looks upon him as an enemy, and, as men are inclined to do in a tooth-and-nail society, he tries to kill the man who is trying to kill him.
When a striker kills with a brick the man who has taken his place, he has no sense of wrong-doing. In the deepest holds of his being, though he does not reason the impulse, he has an ethical sanction. He feels dimly that he has justification, just as the home-defending Boer felt, though more sharply, with each bullet he fired at the invading English. Behind every brick thrown by a striker is the selfish will "to live" of himself, and the slightly altruistic will "to live" of his family. The family group came into the world before the State group, and society, being still on the primitive basis of tooth and nail, the will "to live" of the State is not so compelling to the striker as is the will "to live" of his family and himself.

The laborer who gives more time or strength or skill for the same wage than another, or equal time or strength or skill for a less wage, is a scab.

It is because he cannot get work on the same terms as they that he is a scab. There is less work than there are men to do work. This is patent, else the scab would not loom so large on the labor-market horizon. Because they are stronger than he, or more skilled, or more energetic, it is impossible for him to take their places at the same wage. To take their places he must give more value, must work longer hours or receive a smaller wage.

But, for scabbing, no blame attaches itself anywhere. With rare exceptions, all the people in the world are scabs. The strong, capable workman gets a job and holds it because of his strength and capacity. And he holds it because out of his strength and capacity he gives a better value for his wage than does the weaker and less capable workman. Therefore he is scabbing upon his weaker and less capable brother workman. He is giving more value for the price paid by the employer.
The superior workman scabs upon the inferior workman because he is so constituted and cannot help it. The one, by fortune of birth and upbringing, is strong and capable; the other, by fortune of birth and upbringing, is not so strong nor capable. It is for the same reason that one country scabs upon another. That country which has the good fortune to possess great natural resources, a finer sun and soil, unhampering institutions, and a deft and intelligent labor class and capitalist class is bound to scab upon a country less fortunately situated. It is the good fortune of the United States that is making her the colossal scab, just as it is the good fortune of one man to be born with a straight back while his brother is born with a hump.
It is not good to give most for least, not good to be a scab. The word has gained universal opprobrium. On the other hand, to be a non-scab, to give least for most, is universally branded as stingy, selfish, and unchristian-like. So all the
world, like the British workman, is 'twixt the devil and the deep sea. It is treason to one's fellows to scab, it is unchristian-like not to scab.
Since to give least for most, and to give most for least, are universally bad, what remains? Equity remains, which is to give like for like, the same for the same, neither more nor less. But this equity, society, as at present constituted, cannot give. It is not in the nature of present-day society for men to give like for like, the same for the same. And so long as men continue to live in this competitive society, struggling tooth and nail with one another for food and shelter, (which is to struggle tooth and nail with one another for life), that long will the scab continue to exist. His will "to live" will force him to exist. He may be flouted and jeered by his brothers, he may be beaten with bricks and clubs by the men who by superior strength and capacity scab upon him as he scabs upon them by longer hours and smaller wages, but through it all he will persist, giving a bit more of most for least than they are giving.

While one might admire Jack London's writing over the years, I would not base my work ethic on his moral character. Jack London was a commited Socialist and socialism was his "holy grail". He ran for office on the socialist ticket several times while living the the SFO/OAK areas.

I am not in favor of scabs, but a blanket condemnation without all the facts does not serve this profession well. ALPA has a lot of explaining to do when it sticks your name on a list that brands you for life in a fairly small group of pilots. So all I am suggesting is that when someone outs a person as in a recent previous post, without the benefit of all the facts, we are traveling down a slippery slope and perhaps need to curb our enthusiasm for the tar and feathers routine.

 

[Midnight Flyer]

Originally Posted by airspeed
*******.

So what am I supposed to do about that?

Don't feel bad Spooky, both chief pilots at my 2 last airlines have been scabs and one DO is a scab, too. There's nothing we can do about it

 

[maru657]

An excellant point made earlier, The retired UAL pilots complaining about their reduced pensions. That means they were present in 86 when the United MEC did a number on the Frontier pilots.

 

[Spooky 1]

Originally Posted by airspeed
*******.



Don't feel bad Spooky, both chief pilots at my 2 last airlines have been scabs and one DO is a scab, too. There's nothing we can do about it

I don't feel bad. That's the point your missing. I happen to know some guys on that list that I think are pretty darn good pilots and managers. Sorry I can't get worked up about bashing the whole lot.

 

[Phaedrus]

While one might admire Jack London's writing over the years, I would not base my work ethic on his moral character. Jack London was a commited Socialist and socialism was his "holy grail". He ran for office on the socialist ticket several times while living the the SFO/OAK areas.

Spooky, I did once admire London's writings. So much so that I have nearly all of his books in my library. However, as I've matured I find I disagree with nearly every point he makes, either metaphorically or literally.
My point is that unless you can define what a scab is then you can't even begin to discuss the subject.
Those on this forum that like to point fingers and call names would themselves be called the same by others.
Just an observation, not advice on how to live your life or do your work.

 

[Midnight Flyer]

I don't feel bad. That's the point your missing. I happen to know some guys on that list that I think are pretty darn good pilots and managers. Sorry I can't get worked up about bashing the whole lot.

Maybe you're missing my point, too. I never implied that being a scab makes a person a bad pilot. That would be ignorant for me to make that claim. I've flown with more scabs than you can shake a stick at. Some of the best pilots that I've flown with chose to be scabs. The check airman who did my initial IOE, who happened to be a scab, taught me more about the 727 than I could have ever hoped for.
In my opinion, alot of scabs choose to be managers because they know the pilot group hates them, so it's easier for them to take an "office job". And you're right, they can be excellent managers.

Having said all that, a scab is still a scab. I don't get worked up about scabs to the point of making myself ill, like some people on here do, but I can say that I have absolutely no respect for them based on the choice they made.

 

[Phaedrus]

Midnight Flyer: Do you do the same amount of work for less pay than some others? Any others?
I think the fact that some are willing to do the same work (fly airplanes) for less pay is the reason the animosity exists, although a rung lower, for LCC pilots, specifically SWA.
How would you define a scab? Someone who crosses a picket line? Let's say there is a strike; the picket line is not broken; the company is able to wait it out longer than the employees and they decide to come back, but at lower pay and at the cost of some of their co-workers' jobs. Are they scabs?
A scab is still a scab? Please tell me what a scab is.

 

[mar]

No disrespect to coal miners, but c'mon...

...even a coal miner knows what a scab is.

A scab is someone who takes another's job. That's it. It's really simple. Why do people try to confuse the issue?

 

[Phaedrus]

A scab is someone who takes another's job.

From Justice Thurgood Marshall:

As in Bresler, Jack London's "definition of a scab" is merely rhetorical hyperbole, a lusty and imaginative expression of the contempt felt by union members towards those who refuse to join.

So according to a Supreme Court Justice, a scab is someone who refuses to join a union.
According to a lifelong socialist and author, a scab is anyone who provides equal value for less pay.
And according to you it is so easy as to say it is someone who takes another's job.
Confuse the issue? The issue was, is, and will always be confused. That's my whole point.

 

[say again]

...even a coal miner knows what a scab is.

A scab is someone who takes another's job. That's it. It's really simple. Why do people try to confuse the issue?

Because that is the American way!!!!:beer:

 

[gto2002]

So if I understand then we all are scabs from flight instructors on up since none of us make the same pay for equip used?

 

[Midnight Flyer]

Midnight Flyer: Do you do the same amount of work for less pay than some others? Any others?

That's a confusing question. I'm sure I do in some cases and I'm sure I don't in other cases. First of all, I don't keep up with the payscale of other pilots, so I don't know how I rate in the in the scheme of things, and also I don't keep up with how hard "joe blow pilot" works to get a paycheck as big as mine. I'm positive there are pilots who make more than me, and also some who make less than me.
That question has nothing to do with the price of tea in China.

How would you define a scab? Someone who crosses a picket line?

Yes, a pilot who crosses the picket line is a scab for life.

Let's say there is a strike; the picket line is not broken; the company is able to wait it out longer than the employees and they decide to come back, but at lower pay and at the cost of some of their co-workers' jobs. Are they scabs?

Yes, they are scabs. Just because the picket line is not physically there at the time they walk into the building does not mean they aren't scabs still. They are replacing a legitimate workers job by whoring themselves out for the sole reason of greed.

A scab is still a scab? Please tell me what a scab is.

I think you're making this into a bigger deal than what it really has to be. There are scabs all around us. We fly with them, but that dosen't mean we have to like them. Please tell you what a scab is? You know what a scab is. Plenty of people on here have been giving definitions and putting their own spin on it...don't tell me you need to be told what a scab is.
If you cross a picket line or take another pilots job you're a scab..simply stated.

 

[CKJET]

While one might admire Jack London's writing over the years, I would not base my work ethic on his moral character. Jack London was a commited Socialist and socialism was his "holy grail". He ran for office on the socialist ticket several times while living the the SFO/OAK areas.

I am not in favor of scabs, but a blanket condemnation without all the facts does not serve this profession well. ALPA has a lot of explaining to do when it sticks your name on a list that brands you for life in a fairly small group of pilots. So all I am suggesting is that when someone outs a person as in a recent previous post, without the benefit of all the facts, we are traveling down a slippery slope and perhaps need to curb our enthusiasm for the tar and feathers routine.

Spooky, you want the facts, fact is that if you cross a picket line you belong at the bottom of the sea with all the lawyers. You went to work while your fellow pilots or drivers or butchers were walking the line. These people should be thankful that all they get are some dirty looks, harsh words, and maybe some trouble getting on the jumpseat. Some folks lost their homes while these pukes were flying.

 

[FN FAL]

?????????????

I'm guilty! So if it it will make you feel better, I'll go first.

 

[Capt. X]

Why anyone would risk it all crossing a picket line is beyond me, IMHO. There are just to many other jobs out there, whether it be in aviation or not,to deal with the ramifications of crossng a line. You probably won't make as much $$$, but you'll have your integrity. Plus, if you eventually want to join the airlines again down the road you will be on a scab list. Having said this, I know many guys that were loud during strikes to not cross and were the first to cross. We all have our breaking point I assume...ie Mortgage, medical bills, college etc...But a scab is still a scab who takes the job of another, and that's just not right.

 

[mar]

Static and confusion

Confuse the issue? The issue was, is, and will always be confused. That's my whole point.

No my friend. Not so.

In that case then a junior Capt is scabbing because he's working for less money than a senior Capt.

PLEASE. Let's be *reasonable*.

And this is the only point I'm trying to make. People lose their reason when they try to confuse the issue in an attempt to garner support for their crappy situation.

They don't like their lot in life, so they invent an "evil-doer" on whom they can blame all of their problems...just like London's version of the The Scab.

C'mon. Let's keep it together.

 

[YGBSM]

Heh-heh. In other words, "Welcome to the real world".

That may be the funniest thing I've ever read, considering your audience and this subject.

 

[CSY Mon]

[QUOTEIn that case then a junior Capt is scabbing because he's working for less money than a senior Capt.
][/QUOTE]

No, not so...Duh.

A scab is crossing a picket line, hopefully he will burn in hell...No excuse.