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mugsy

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May 13, 2002
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5
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2500
New guy to the page. This is a great place for info. I have been in the Air Force 8 years and my time is coming to an end (stop loss?). Asking some pros on where I stand in the real world. I have around 1200 civ hours in cessnas, 1400 military time in B-1, B-2, and T-38. I have only about 500 hours PIC turbine time and I don't know if that is enough. My bonus and committment are both in Mar 03. Any advice? Also planning on going to Atlanta in July for Air Inc conference. Are these any good and should I have a resume handy. My problem with the resume is I don't have any of the ratings(ATP, FEw, etc.) should I go ahead and go and what about the resume. Not 100% sure getting out, but leaning on the fence.

Mugsy
 

Draginass

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You probably won't be taken seriously by a major with only 500 hours of jet PIC. but maybe a regional . . . . if you want to work for their compensation. Looking at your aircraft flown, I'd question why you were so light on time after 8 years, and especially PIC. Looking at that, I'd guess that you never upgraded to instructor in a heavy. Not having your ATP on the resume will also cause the reader to wonder if you're really serious and probably cause it to get relegated to the circular file. The FE written is only useful if the company you're applying for has engineers - and the majors' 727s are going away VERY fast. These days with the UPT committment so long, I think more like 1500 hours PIC and instructor is the norm for heavy drivers leaving service at first opportunity, more of course for single seat fighters. Having done the B-1 and B-2 it would seem you steered your career path towards a USAF career and not optimized toward making yourself competitive for being hired by an airline. Staying in the USAF, and catching up on jet PIC would seem the right thing right now. In several years some serious retirement number in the airline industry start coming into play, and you may be well competitive then. At any rate, I thought the Air Inc conventions were good, expecially the military transition seminars.

A bit of a moot point right now anyway with the industry in the dumper and probably will be for a few years. If US Airways/and or Amer West don't make it, there will be even more better qualified pilots on the street. Fedex, SW, and JetBlue are hiring though.
 
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airgator

FUBIJAR
Joined
Dec 19, 2001
Posts
367
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3.14
b-1 units

Draginass or Mugsy-
I thought i read somewhere that the Geogia and Kansas ANG were getting rid of the B-1's. Do you know if there is any truth to this? I'd like to know what the deal is before i send out packets to them.
 

Clownpilot

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Posts
166
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Times

Submit applications to Southwest and JetBlue. Your times may not be completely competitive right now but it is good quality time and I think you're a reasonably qualified applicant.

The big three are a long way from calling back furloughed pilots much less hiring so those are your best options.
 

Clownpilot

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Posts
166
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5000+
PS

BTW, I think Draginass has mental problems. Ignore his attempt to belittle your qualifications. You are competitive to apply. Don't hesitate.

Some people have issues. Don't let theirs affect you.
 

AlbieF15

F15 Ret/FDX/InterviewPrep
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
1,764
Total Time
6000
Clown pilot,

I think our B-1 driver had some valid points. As an AF guy and new hire airline pilot, my first reaction to Mugsy's post was "why so little PIC?"
This isn't a personal slam...but Mugsy better have some answers in an interview for that very question, if he can even get an interview with that PIC. Those times indicate someone who for whatever reason was very slow to upgrade. This can be due to personal, professional, or timing reasons...but the point is someone WILL ask some questions about "why".

My recommendation is to throw out apps anyway, then fly that T-38 (ACE program?) like it was going out of style to built some PIC. Mugsy..remember that "dual given" is PIC. Did you count that in your totals? Solo time in UPT won't count (student time), but your time at PIT may qualify. I never had to split hairs with flightime since I didn't leave active duty until the 14 year point and had some civilian time as well, but maybe someone with a similar background can give you some logbook ROE.

FYI...FedEx and JetBlue both require 1000 PIC. I believe SWA does as well.
 

Draginass

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Joined
Nov 29, 2001
Posts
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5000+
Georgia and Kansas are transitioning to other aircraft. Congress recently announced they are stopping the funding of a quite a few B-1s, downsizing the number of "funded" aircraft. I think the GANG is going to JSTARS. Don't know about the KANG. Maybe someone else has more current info.

Mugsy - You can put in your resume to anywhere you want, but that doesn't make you necessarily "competitive." It's important that you do what you're doing right now -- gain info and network with buddies that are in the industry and performing a realistic self-assessment of your competitive qualifications. Being a military pilot is a plus, but you've got to have the other normal prerequisites. Take a look at the Air INC magazine from a year ago or so on quals that hires had. I'll give you a good idea for how competitive you are. Remember, your paper qualifications, resume and recommendations get you an interview.

Take a week or two off in the next few months and knock out that ATP and FE written (for Fedex purposes). Try NOT and do it when you're down to the wire of getting out (like I did) - at that time you want you resumes in the mix, not waiting to get your ATP. It's not too hard, just takes a couple weeks of study and 3-4 flights in a twin at someplace like All ATPs (oh. . . and about $1500). Send me a private mail if you'd like my experience at this several years ago.

Don't be put off by Clownpilot's name-calling. There are fortunately very few of those types around in industry.
 
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mugsy

Member
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
5
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2500
thanks for the replies. i can take slams, god knows a military pilot has taken a few over time in debriefs. i just appreciate your answers. maybe i cut myself short a little, i was getting a feel for what you all thought. after reading some of the replies i started to really count my hours. was a bone driver and got 750 total with 300 pic. then yes i did get myself into a "career track" by going to the b-2. i got hired as 38 ip and have about another 300 hours pic. here is the problem, after all the time i spent in the bone, i was 2 weeks from cfic for the bone and went to pit then whiteman. spent a year as an ip in the 38. here we don't fly a whole lot. problem number 1. we get 60 sorties a year in the 38. i know that is terrible all the mil pilots are saying. hey it is a ctp program. the other problem is that we average 3 sorties a month in bongo deuce(b2). this is an average duration of 4 hours. math for the year is roughly somewhere around 200-250 hours a year if you are lucky to get. yeah i know the heavies and faips double that. problem 2. when i went through b2 training it was six months long and little time, but the problem was i was a pilot in the b2, not the mission commander(aircraft commander). frustrating because i was a captain doing second lt duties and logging basically secondary time. that is when i said @@@#, i gave alot up back where i was in the bone.just upgraded to ac and time building is slow. yeah made a bad decision, but i will learn someday. anyway wanted to put my "alibi" out there before i got any more "faceshots". thanks for the info
 

ck130

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 27, 2001
Posts
45
Total Time
4000
Mugsy,

My .02 for what it is worth is to get every block checked that you can, ATP, FEW, more PIC (oh my god I sound like Kit Darby), and then SIT TIGHT. Not much is happening right now so getting out would only be counter productive because you would go to the right seat of some regional if you are lucky instead of the high quality Mil PIC time your getting now. I also would NOT take the bonus. Let your obligation expire and then continue on as a free agent. That way when the hiring takes off again you can depart the Air Force on relatively short notice. On that same note bank as much leave as you can so you can time it right and be on terminal LV while your in class somewhere.

And last but not least, enjoy where you are at and what you are doing. We get so focused on landing that Airline gig that many of us forget the most fun you will ever have in an airplane is right now.


Fly Safe,
ck130
 

Clownpilot

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 27, 2001
Posts
166
Total Time
5000+
THIS IS RIDICULOUS

I dint mean to offend anyone. But these guys are wrong. You don't have to continuously apologize for your lack of PIC time. They want to doom and gloom you for some reason I can't understand. YOU ARE QUALIFIED.

The airlines aren't looking to see if you have the most PIC time. They want to see if you are capable of being in charge of the aircraft. 500 hours is plenty. All your time is turbine and multi.

Don't listen to these guys. Apply now.

When I got hired I had about 3000 hours. I was probably high time military in the class. Many had far less time than you have now.

Once you are qualified your next step is to get good recommendations from other guys. Network your ass off with those who have jobs where you want to work. Your options right now are quite limited.

It's SWA, Jetblue, or the package carriers. Get some guys to make noise for you on the inside. A silent application will get very little play.

Don't apologize and don't listen to the naysayers. Network.

Now I'm not aware of any official minimum of 1000 hrs PIC anywhere (except maybe at one package carrier). If that's actually the case, well then theres not much you can do. But that seems ridiculous to me. Remember, right now they can make the mins whatever they want. Position youself for 2 years from now and take a job that will get you there.







mugsy said:
thanks for the replies. i can take slams, god knows a military pilot has taken a few over time in debriefs. i just appreciate your answers. maybe i cut myself short a little, i was getting a feel for what you all thought. after reading some of the replies i started to really count my hours. was a bone driver and got 750 total with 300 pic. then yes i did get myself into a "career track" by going to the b-2. i got hired as 38 ip and have about another 300 hours pic. here is the problem, after all the time i spent in the bone, i was 2 weeks from cfic for the bone and went to pit then whiteman. spent a year as an ip in the 38. here we don't fly a whole lot. problem number 1. we get 60 sorties a year in the 38. i know that is terrible all the mil pilots are saying. hey it is a ctp program. the other problem is that we average 3 sorties a month in bongo deuce(b2). this is an average duration of 4 hours. math for the year is roughly somewhere around 200-250 hours a year if you are lucky to get. yeah i know the heavies and faips double that. problem 2. when i went through b2 training it was six months long and little time, but the problem was i was a pilot in the b2, not the mission commander(aircraft commander). frustrating because i was a captain doing second lt duties and logging basically secondary time. that is when i said @@@#, i gave alot up back where i was in the bone.just upgraded to ac and time building is slow. yeah made a bad decision, but i will learn someday. anyway wanted to put my "alibi" out there before i got any more "faceshots". thanks for the info
 

Clownpilot

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 27, 2001
Posts
166
Total Time
5000+
DUH

>>Don't be put off by Clownpilot's name-calling. There are fortunately very few of those types around in industry. [/B][/QUOTE]>>

DELETED BY POSTER
 
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UPS Capt

100% IPA
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
151
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10000+
Most majors advertise much lower minimums for employment then what they'll realistically interview. I mean, when was the last time you heard of someone being called for an interview with only 1000-1500tt at a major. Maybe occasionally an ex-military applicant such as an F-16 driver who knows somebody, but certainly not a civilian pilot.

As we all know, things have changed considerably since 9/11. Time requirements that use to guarantee an interview at a major may not get a second look at a Regional. Let's face it, we are in a huge down cycle in pilot hiring. There's a lot of well qualified (5000+tt) pilots furloughed and pounding the pavement looking for work. USAir is hanging on by a thread which could dump more qualified pilots into the already saturated market.

Who knows when things will turn around? About the only airlines making money are SW, Jetblue and the large freight carriers. I can tell you that to be competitive you need around 3-5000tt with at least, and I mean "at least", 1000 multi turbine PIC. That's just to get someone to look at your resume seriously. Other than that, you'll need as many LOR's as you can get to push your app to the top of the pile. The rules have changed in favor of the airlines when it comes to hiring pilots. The ones who are hiring, will hire the most experienced people, simply because they can. This hasn't been the case in the past several years when airlines were scrambling for pilots.

These are rough times in the airline biz. Tighten your seatbelt and if you have a flying job consider yourself lucky. If you have a relatively secure flying job..ie, SW, UPS FedEx, then consider yourself VERY lucky. If your in the military, flying and getting a regular pay check, then I'd suggest staying put until things significantly improve or you are able to interview at one of the airlines mentioned above.

If you get out now then plan to start out at a lower tier regional airline making peanuts or possibly the corporate route. If history proves correct then things will eventually turn around again...the question is simply, when?

Good luck! Sorry for the doom and gloom post. Just my own personal $0.02 worth.
 

UPS Capt

100% IPA
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
151
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Clownpilot

I noticed that everyone who spoke up as an expert on this subject is either unemployed, furloughed, or unqualified.

I don't fit into any of those categories and I do consider myself somewhat of an expert with 20 yrs of airline flying under my belt.

Never take advice from someone who FAILED at what you're trying to achieve.

There's a BIG difference in failing at something within your control and, coming out the losing end of something totally out of your control. A furloughed pilot has not failed at anything and is unfortunately just a victim of circumstances beyond his/her control.

While everyone, no matter what their total time, is free to send an app to whomever they desire, I think realistically someone with only 750tt and 300 PIC, especially post 9/11, doesn't have snowball's chance at a major. That's not a slam, just being realistic.
 

OPIE01

Coffee Break is over!
Joined
Jan 28, 2002
Posts
150
Total Time
4000
What is your Goal?

Is your goal to be an airline pilot or is it to be an O-5/6 in the Air Force on Active duty. It can't be both.

If your goal is to be an airline pilot then you need to make that dicision and do what it takes to get the job. You said you have 1200 hours in Cessnas, isn't any of it PIC. I know it is not Turbine PIC but it is PIC when you get an interview.

You may want to look at joining a Cargo Guard unit or a Tanker unit. I bet there will be a huge amount of Positios open next Jan-Feb when the reserve/Guard Activation is over. You will go straight to AC school, get a pay check, and can easily Guard Bum till you get some seniority in an airline. The Guard unit will aford you 3 great benefits. 1) you will be availible for an immediate Class date when hired by someone. 2) you will be able to support your family. 3) You can easily continue to rapidly build PIC time in a Multiengine turbine (I met a 1LT the other day who has flown about 800 hours in the C-5 since 9/11).

But remember this option of getting out will cause you to have to risk the safety net Active duty provides right now. NOTHING WORTH WHILE IS EASY, NOTHING EASY IS WORTH WHILE.

What ever you do stay or go, video yourself telling your wife and kids the exact reasons you did what you did. Play this tape every Six months and ensure you understand why you made your decision.

We need good dudes on active duty also.
 

Oli

New member
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Apr 30, 2002
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I agree with Opie, you need to make the commitment to get out. I had a buddy I flew Air Force Lears with. This guy flew lears and had minmal hours but was able to get out in 1993. Tell me how many guys were bailing out of the Air Force in 1993... not that many. The economy was far worse than today, and the industry was not hiring all that many folks. He got a job in the Reserves, flying C-5's and built up his hours. He also got a job with a commuter flying Dash 6's and continued to build up his hours. Being out of the Active Duty allowed him the freedom to take advantage of changes in the industry when they occured. He was hired by United in 1996 and is now right seat on the 747-400. He's making so much money he could buy and sell me... all because he took the risk when the industry was in the dumper. Ok, I'm hired by SWA, but I would still look at getting out and getting hired by any heavy airlift guard or reserve unit...especially strat air. The C-5s and C-17's are looking for bodies and it is a fun job.. but hey, I'm a little biased. Good luck!!!
 

Draginass

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Posts
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Ditto UPS Captain. Despite the clown's tantrum, I too have never been furloughed nor unemployed -- and feel very lucky and grateful not to have been. I have also felt lucky and grateful that I've been hired after every airline interview I ever had. My company has quite a few guys still on furlough and feel my no.1 task as a union member is to get those guys back on payroll and the company back in the black. They were hired in good faith, were protected by no-furlough clauses and through absolutely no fault of their own, they were furloughed. Absolutely zero reflection on them personally, but a risk in this industry. Although it's little consolation, I guess they can now call themselves the proverbial "real" airline pilot.

Mugsy - Your explanation is perfectly plausible. Don't take anything on this board as a "slam," just realism, especially in the state of the industry now. I was in similar circumstances when I retired from the USAF -- not much recent flying time - but, hiring was hot and I was able to get a Part 121 job flying heavies worldwide and built a lot of time pretty quickly -- albeit at not a "major" paycheck. I think my military background, plus 1000 hours or so of part 121 experience and a heavy type-rating (and in-company recommendations) made me "competitive" for a major airline. If times were then what they are now, I probably wouldn't be "competitive." I was certainly "qualified" but not necessarily "competitive." Getting yourself competitive for a major would probably be a matter of getting a bunch of current military PIC time or Part 121 experience (maybe at a second tier company) and waiting for major hiring again. Also, we all hope that US Air and America West survive as employers and don't release a bunch of guys to the street. Right now US Air alone has over 1000 pretty senior, superbly competitive guys on furlough. Depending on the future, if those guys start believing that they won't be going back to US Air, some will be willing to resign seniority and start over at another major. It's a complicated and uncertain situation right now. Only you know what your best course is. But, make that decision based on a realistic assessment of your competitiveness and the industry situation. Go to the Air Inc convention and expecially the military transition seminar. Good luck.
 

Clownpilot

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Posts
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MY ERROR

Draginass said:
Ditto UPS Captain. Despite the clown's tantrum, I too have never been furloughed nor unemployed -- and feel very lucky and grateful not to have been.

Draginass,

I owe you an apology. My brain doesn't work too well any more.
I mistook you for someone else. Obviously, my excessive drinking is now affecting my few remaining brain cells (cell). Well, that's what 3 months of TDY at the Sherry in Miami does to you, I guess. Either way, I have deleted that post, and I believe I owe you your bar tab should you make it down to Miami at some point. Certainly the drinks would be on me.

I gotta stop bidding this......eventually.

In unity,

Clownpilot
 

B-J-J Fighter

Royce Gracie in Action
Joined
Dec 1, 2001
Posts
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Clown Pilot

Let up on Clown Pilot guys, he's very fun to argue with. He's just an overweight out of shape wannabe with zero credentials. Right Clown!
 

spongebob

Glass half empty
Joined
Dec 31, 2001
Posts
61
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5-10k
Go guard

Mugsy,

That SOB Opie took my words out of my mouth. I fully agree with him. I did very close to that and now I be an aerlayn pilott. We are hiring in my guard unit and I know that all kinds of units will be looking for guys after stop loss ends. Submitt apps now to these places and go visit your top three. Once you get in, you can shotgun the majors and you will be hireable very soon (I landed the job with under 300 total fixed-wing and about 1200 PIC) You are no-kidding, sitting pretty.

As to Opie, Skids are for kids....
 

Eagleflip

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Joined
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Posts
794
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Hey B-J-J!!!

Wait a daggone minute, buster....

I looked at that picture and you appear to be wailing on Spiderman...

Now, I don't know about the rest of America, but while you can say anything about anybody on this board, I ain't gonna put up with somebody kicking Spidey bu++...

I'm sending in the Incredible Hulk to teach you a lesson!:D


There...I feel better already.
 
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