How big are tips in the frac industry?

[GEXDriver]

Good, bad, or otherwise, I believe that is one of the tradeoffs of having a CBA and an organized shop.

That's exactly right. It's only in union shops that you'll find pilots delegated to positions based upon date of hire rather than experience and ability.

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

Diesel is right on the money.

In the two positions I've had since leaving the military, the company Ops Manuals have specifically prohibited the acceptance of gratuities.

On a personal level, I consider myself to be a professional just as an airline captain is or as is a doctor or a lawyer. I would never consider trying to push an envelope with a tip enclosed under the reinforced cockpit door for the 777 captain who had just given me a smooth flight to Paris. Nor would I attempt to slip a Benjamin into the hand of a cruise ship captain at the completion of a particularly nice Caribbean cruise. I have also never considered tipping my doctor for a good surgical procedure or my dentist for a nice cap or my lawyer for executing a legal document professionally. I think they would be insulted even though two of them are performing "touch" labor.


GV

What you are absolutely completely missing is that since leaving the military you've been employed in positions that probably paid very, very well! Maybe better than that. When you're in a position for the purpose of gaining experience and flight time yet have problems making the rent and bills, a position many charter pilots have been in, you'll accept that $25, or $50.

I'd guess half the positions in the industry pay so little that when supporting a family becomes a going concern, accepting a gratuity is a no-brainer. Not everyone works for Gulfstream or a Fortune 500.

Never let pride get in the way of incurring a late payment fee!

Mr. I.

 

[Ultra Grump]

That's exactly right. It's only in union shops that you'll find pilots delegated to positions based upon date of hire rather than experience and ability.

This shows how little you know about aviation outside your priveleged little world. Try getting on at Skywest, for example, at the top of their list. Or FlexJet, or Citationshares. Oh, that's right, you can't. Even though they're non-union, there's still a seniority list. How about at NJI? Are new-hires jumping straight into G550 captain slots?

 

[netjetwife]

Give up Diesel!.... NJW knows more about your job and the aviation industry then the rest of us.

By the way NJW, how did your husband's election bid go?

I found the whole process disappointing, including the low voter turn-out. I was surprised at the results for several positions (given the contributions made by the candidates) and share the concerns of those who worry that the NJ pilots may be too complacent to stay actively involved these days.

On the other hand, there is a school of thought that things happen for a reason and that things have a way of turning out for the best. It appears that that may be the case for my family. Needless to say, I wish the MEC well and will continue to fully support the NJ pilots in their efforts to improve their career opportunities.

SCT, please don't assign to me claims that I have never made. I do follow along closely and that is all that I have posted.
NJW

 

[netjetwife]

....What I'm annoyed at is njw's exception that we are all so downtrodden that we need these tips to help those poor fractional pilots. Someone has to say that we are profesionals and tips do come but to not count on them and not to add them into some sort of mysterious budget.

When was the last time you tipped your doctor or lawyer for a job well done?

Clarification: Acknowledging the reality that some frac pilots can certainly use the tips does not in any way condone the reason that is the case. I don't see anyone on this thread suggesting that pilots should count on tips. I have specifically stated that the recognition for providing extra service is what matters most to those pilots paid fairly. It is human nature to enjoy being appreciated and I have included that aspect of the issue in my posts.

It's fair to say that I have been a vocal supporter of professional compensation for frac pilots and have repeatedly given them all credit for their skill. Perhaps I haven't posted my tag line enough lately?

PILOTS ARE PROFESSIONALS AND SHOULD BE COMPENSATED AS SUCH

Doctors and lawyers are compensated for performing the duties they are hired for. Pilots who are tipped receive extra for giving extra service above and beyond their job description of flying the airplane. Owners pay pilots to fly them safely--not to carry/load their bags, set out catering, fix them a drink, and arrange their ground transportation. Those pax who tip (whether owners or card holders) are showing their appreciation for the additional personal service that was not required to fly the plane. Etiquette experts say that is the socially correct thing to do. I think that at the very least we can all agree that it certainly is their choice and it should be respected.

In my research on the tipping issue I learned that some doctors and lawyers have received "gifts" showing appreciation and though it isn't money they looked upon it as a "tip". What it all boils down to is that there are people who like to show their appreciation to those who extend them special considerations. Kindness is often rewarded in like fashion and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[transpac]

PILOTS ARE PROFESSIONALS AND SHOULD BE COMPENSATED AS SUCH

Doctors and lawyers are compensated for performing the duties they are hired for. Pilots who are tipped receive extra for giving extra service above and beyond their job description of flying the airplane. Owners pay pilots to fly them safely--not to carry/load their bags, set out catering, fix them a drink, and arrange their ground transportation.

Unless things have changed since I left, the pilots are paid by NJA, not the share owners. And, NJA certainly does expect pilots to provide services in addition to flying the airplane. Any pilot who refuses to set out catering, load bags, etc. will have a short and unhappy career at NJA or at any other fractional.

 

[SCT]

"Owners pay pilots to fly them safely--not to carry/load their bags, set out catering, fix them a drink, and arrange their ground transportation. Those pax who tip (whether owners or card holders) are showing their appreciation for the additional personal service that was not required to fly the plane. Etiquette experts say that is the socially correct thing to do. I think that at the very least we can all agree that it certainly is their choice and it should be respected."

Njw- this statement shows how ignorant you are about corporate and fractional aviation.

 

[Muddauber]

NJW -

If I give my passengers a particularly nice ride from DAL to LAS should I be disappointed if they don't pass the hat and give the flight attendants a healthy tip for the cockpit crew?


Muddy

 

[netjetwife]

My post is based on common sense. Most travelers accept the fact that it is their personal responsibility to take care of their own luggage, refreshment needs and transportation arrangements for after they land. My husband tells me of pax that have expressed their gratitude for all of those extra services. The point is that what seems routine to the pilots may be perceived differently to those who choose to tip. Since you disagree with my logical deduction, SCT, feel free to explain just why some of the pax tip....

 

[netjetwife]

Muddy, according to the etiquette rules the answer is-- not unless you performed personal services for them outside of the cockpit as most of the frac pilots do who fly planes without FAs. Good manners, which are at the root of tipping, dictate that it is rude to take the help of others for granted and likewise offensive to appear grasping and only motivated by money.

 

[NJAowner]

Services

NJW -- I disagree with you that NJA pilots' duties are only in the cockpit. I am sure that the job description before they are hired ranges to these other duties incidental to the flight.

Next time your husband or some other NJA pilot flies me I will ask for the keys to the cargo area and load it myself. I do not have the proper training in openning and closing the cargo hold (in fact wasn't there a recent crash of a Citation in Calif. becuase the cargo hold was not secured and locked?), proper placement and balance of my luggage, and making sure it is properly secured. I am sure your husband, the professional pilot, will let me do all this and then feel secure and safe flying the jet. I really do not think the NJA pilots desire the passengers to handle these items.

Fly safe.

 

[netjetwife]

Unless things have changed since I left, the pilots are paid by NJA, not the share owners. And, NJA certainly does expect pilots to provide services in addition to flying the airplane. Any pilot who refuses to set out catering, load bags, etc. will have a short and unhappy career at NJA or at any other fractional.

Agreed. However, that doesn't detract from the fact that those receiving the extra services often express their appreciation with a tip for the ones giving it. It must also be noted that NJA gave the pilots a watch, hats, and t-shirts at the end of the year. In essence they tipped the pilots for providing the red carpet service they insist upon on behalf of the owners. It is customary for many employers to give yearly bonuses/tips as a way of showing appreciation to the work force.

 

[netjetwife]

'Owner, I'm just passing along information I learned in researching the issue of tipping pilots. Etiquette experts make a distinction between those who only fly the plane and those who do extra things for the pax. We all recognize that frac pilots perform additional duties--some from safety and most from courtesy. It seems that those pax who tip also make that distinction.

I was under the impression that many pilots carry the bags from the limo to the plane and then load it. Perhaps those who tip are expressing appreciation to the pilot that carried the bag. My husband has never minded not getting a tip for loading luggage; he has felt slighted when watching the limo driver who took the bags out of the trunk and sat them down get tipped while he lugged them to the plane. I've heard other pilots share the same observation. Those who are paid less than the limo drivers are understandably frustrated by the common procedure.

Pilots expect their pax to show up with a normal amount of luggage. When they have worked to accommodate a large amount of various belongings from a big shopping trip--in addition to a lot of bags--a tip is appreciated as the additional thanks for the extra service. While the determination of what is "extra" is subjective, apparently some of the pax (like the etiquette writers) also make a distinction between the "normal" duties of a pilot and the personal attention given before and after the flight. In those situations the tips, while usually not expected, are certainly appreciated as recognition for the extra help.

Pleasant journeys,
NJW

 

[Diesel]

Most travelers accept the fact that it is their personal responsibility to take care of their own luggage, refreshment needs and transportation arrangements for after they land.

do you even understand what netjets is about? its about seemless customer service from the time they leave their hotel, house, boat.... all the way to when they arrive back home to their actual home. nj will set up everything from soup to nuts. thats what its about.

When they have worked to accommodate a large amount of various belongings from a big shopping trip--in addition to a lot of bags--a tip is appreciated as the additional thanks for the extra service.

still not understanding it.... when my mom shows up to go anywhere her baggage exceeds most owners. loading bags is part of the job...... you know the job that requires duties both inside and outside the cockpit.

thats why some people like it here and some don't. some want to just close the door and some want to do it njäs way.

My post is based on common sense.

not real word experience or any sense of reality.

 

[Muddauber]

Muddy, according to the etiquette rules the answer is-- not unless you performed personal services for them outside of the cockpit as most of the frac pilots do who fly planes without FAs. Good manners, which are at the root of tipping, dictate that it is rude to take the help of others for granted and likewise offensive to appear grasping and only motivated by money.

My post was facetious, of course. I did not consider the possibility that you would pose, what is to you, a serious response.

It is common knowledge that for those who fly business aircraft that handling baggage, arranging transportation and assisting passengers with customs and other tasks associated with their flight is part of the job.

When I flew business jets, in New Delhi we would wait curbside for our passengers at the Indira Gandhi International Airport and escort them through customs as well as handling their luggage. In Muscat or Bahrain we would go room to room at the Intercontinental or Sheraton to collect the passengers bags and take them to the airport with us to get the luggage through the necessary inspections so that our passengers would not be delayed when they came to the airport. In all cases we completed their customs and immigration forms so that arrival in the next country went smoothly.

I was adequately compensated and considered myself a professional. I would have been insulted if any of my passengers had had the bad form and poor taste to offer me a gratuity.


Muddy







`

 

[netjetwife]

I completely understand the phrase "red carpet treatment" and know exactly how it is applied at NJA. Other frac companies have something similar, I'd imagine. Now that we have that cleared up...

When it comes to frac pilots receiving tips the fact that some pax choose to show their appreciation that way is a reality. Just because it happens to be the NJ way doesn't make those who tip less appreciative of the special attention. Nor did the writers of etiquette rule books which advise travelers to tip pilots who perform duties above and beyond flying make an exception for those whose company requires it.

I agree that some pilots are more into going the extra mile than others are. Just like some pax are more interested in making sure they show their appreciation. Both situations are seen in the frac industry and that is the reality that this thread addresses.

What hasn't yet been mentioned is the fact that the NJ pilots themselves are expected to tip for service, as well. It is done to ensure that NJ planes receive prompt and efficient service. Who's to say that some of the tips given to frac pilots aren't handed over with the same motivation? Personally, I think that it probably just boils down to pax wanting the pilots to know that the red carpet treatment was noticed and appreciated.

 

[netjetwife]

...I was adequately compensated and considered myself a professional. I would have been insulted if any of my passengers had had the bad form and poor taste to offer me a gratuity.

Muddy `

Muddy, that is a personal opinion not shared by the professionals in the business of explaining etiquette rules. What the hard-working pilots see as just "doing their job" is perceived by some of the pax as extra attention that they would like to reward. It's really nothing more than a tangible way of saying thank you. After such helpful service surely you don't think that the grateful recipient would mean to insult you if they expressed their appreciation with a tip? Good manners--and a professional demeanor--dictates that pilots graciously accept tips so as not to embarrass their pax. After doing all those other courtesies I'd think that putting a pax at ease would be done without a thought--even if the pax chose to tip you.

 

[NJAFracPilot]

What hasn't yet been mentioned is the fact that the NJ pilots themselves are expected to tip for service, as well. It is done to ensure that NJ planes receive prompt and efficient service. Who's to say that some of the tips given to frac pilots aren't handed over with the same motivation?

Are you suggesting that I wouldn't provide prompt and efficient service if I wasn't offered a tip? That's pretty insulting don't you think?

The people that we tip count on part of their compensation being from tips. That is not the case for us.

Put me in the list of NJA pilots that politely refuse tips when they're offered.

 

[Ultra Grump]

This is probably one of the lamest arguments I have seen on the frac board. What is the point of arguing about this? The passengers will either tip you or they won't, and the only way to ensure you won't be tipped is to not properly do your job. If you are offered a tip and turn it down, you are an insulting ass. It has nothing to do with being a professional.

In my research on the tipping issue I learned that some doctors and lawyers have received "gifts" showing appreciation and though it isn't money they looked upon it as a "tip".

Along these lines, I will guarantee you (Diesel) that there is more than one AME out there that is "tipped" on a regular basis. Are they not professionals?

There is not one pilot at NJA who, after loading a planeful of bags on one end, then unloading them and carrying them to the SUV on the other, then watching the line guy get tipped for putting them in the back, could say they weren't a little peeved about that. It has nothing to do with professionalism, but more to do with recognition of hard work improperly directed.

My partner and I received a tip today. We did not do anything we would not do for any other passenger on any other flight. We graciously accepted it and went on with our day, without feeling any less "professional" for it.

Jesus Tapdancing Christ! (To quote a certain wise NJA'er)

 

[netjetwife]

Please don't misconstrue what I said. The pilots' motivation was never questioned; I simply pointed out that we don't know for sure why each person who tips might choose to do so. I then went on to say that I believed it was just to express appreciation, but it is feasible that some pax think it might guarantee quicker service.

Regardless of their reasons to extend a tip, I firmly believe that when it comes to their decision to do so the customer is always right. Those in the business of providing service should never insult and/or embarrass the client.

Put me on the list of those who would feel very uncomfortable should anyone I sought to thank with a tip refuse the well-intentioned gesture. It is entirely possible that your pax may feel the same way. Why risk that? It is also possible that you could discourage a practice that other pilots welcomed both for the recognition of their efforts and the extra money. (Put in order of importance.) Why do that to your fellow pilots? I suggest that those pilots who receive tips they don't want offer their share to the rest of the flightcrew and if it isn't wanted then make a charitable donation to a worthy cause.