How are you going to get home??????

[steveg]

Thanks Aviatrix, sometimes people get my dander up.

Mckpickle, been there done that. On both sides of the equation. All I'm saying is that your company, whoever it is, is just a heartbeat away from an even worse situation than Mesa. Those guys are just trying to keep a job and feed their family. If you think Mesa is going to determine your future, you are sadly mistaken. You work for a company that works for a major airline. Read the paper, look on the net, airlines are in HORRIBLE shape! If you have to take a big paycut next month, it's not because of Mesa. We are all looking at cuts. I went from 120K/year, to 55/k. And I am extremely happy and excited! Do I blame AWA who has a lower pay scale than my airline? Heck NO! I would be greatful to get hired there (well not really, I've had it w/airlines).

My experience is that pilots are way too worried about what other pilots make, and never worried enough about the airlines. When was the last time you submitted a brief to your company about how they can save money? When was the last time you welcomed a pilot from another airline (MESA) and asked them what they were doing to help the company survive? I suspect your answer is that you are a pilot and not mgmt! How dare I even think of helping mgmt!

Believe me, you better start worrying about your own future, and not some other airline's. I've had plenty of experience with ALPA and other unions. If you think they are your guarantee to a bright future, then you better look twice, and check your six. There are a lot of EAL pilots that think they won, who are still unemployed. Good luck in your career, and never forget that we are in this together. One last question, what would happen if all the major airline pilots adopted the same stance you have? What if we all walked because mgmt. allowed lower pay commuter pilots to codeshare? Would you have a job? Are you still God's gift to aviation when you look at like that? I sincerely wish you luck in your career. Hopefully you won't have to go to several commuters and majors, only to get furloughed and probably never recalled. At least I'm nice to my fellow pilots. Why aren't you?

Steve

PS. The war has started. Let's all say a prayer for our soldiers and the people in the Middle East.

 

[SanJuanPlebe]

How Will We Get Home?

Probably on our own airline since we apparently aren't welcome on yours.

It's a real shame to see stuff on this board that belongs in elementary school.

I didn't beat around the patch in a C152 with a student at the controls, but me logging the flight "experience" because I was in a different career and chose to make a change to the airlines that required expedience because of my age.

The argument about ab-initio training should be in a different thread, not here. But I will say that those that critique it the most are folks that are frustrated they didn't do it that way.

Critiquing a pilot based on how he/she became qualified would be the same as me suggesting you must be a small-penis-loser who can only get hired at a regional airline and can't make it at a major. It doesn't hold water. I don't know you or why you are where you are. As such, it only detracts from my intelligence and credibility to paint folks with such a broad brush. You may live where you fly, like the aircraft, the company. Who knows. The point is that everyone has their own reasons and we shouldn't judge based on half the information. And the point stressed at the recent ALPA BOD in FLA was that we are ALL PILOTS...regardless of employer, experience of where we trained. And we should support each other.

I would offer that many have judged our TA without all the information. I've posted an informative piece submitted by someone who was there. If, after reading it, you still think the same, and have compared the previous contract with the new TA, and you still feel the same, that's fine.

But to make the comments that have been posted and threaten a jumpseat denial is unprofessional and should never be condoned.

Read the news. Air Wisconsin, ASA, ACA, and Skywest (Skywest less because they are more diversified) are in a position of great liability if United folds. Even if they don't fold, you can expect major cuts. And that's not Mesa's fault. So, if you're pissed off and looking for someone to blame, don't look to us. We have nothing to do with you and our only code-share is for Dashes only. We have all the business we can handle right now plus we're having a hard time financing airplanes, like everyone else.

We need to be professional. We need to support each other as best as possible and stick together. Instead of asking us to "shut the **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**er down" when we were able to make improvements in our contract and put people back to work, just doesn't make sense. Especially in this environment. And this had the blessing of ALPA.

If you want to attack me personally, go ahead. But it makes you look small.

 

[mckpickle]

Re: How Will We Get Home?

We need to be professional. We need to support each other as best as possible and stick together.

We offered support. We offered it and any pilot I know would have gladly payed a assesment to provide for you (just like comair) in the event of a strike. We were willing to give any and all help to you we could. But you caved. You gave in to the nonsense of a lunatic with dooms day proficies. Its bad, But its not 8 days off or 1.15 and hour or seat lock provsions bad. You negotiate what you want and then give a little back later if you have to. You guys gave in and gave up.

 

[steveg]

You guys gave in and gave up, but you still have a job, which is better than most.

We gave you support and offered to pay an assesment. As long as you do what we prescribe as right. And NO, I don't know a thing about your airline or situation, trust me though, I'm right.

Sorry, I'm just another pilot that is going to tell you how you should do things. After all, I've never worked for Mesa, but I'm a pilot and that gives me the right to tell you how to operate. What were you thinking not sigining for 200/hr? You weak fools! Now I am going to make less! How could you do this to me?

You know, the sad thing is, there are pilots that really think this way. Tonight, when we have soldiers risking their lives for us, some of us sit here and critique others outside of our own myopic view of the world. I really do feel sorry for the pilots that blame others for their place in the world. The Mesa pilots had a tough decision to make. You may or may not like it. Bottom line is, it was their decision. Not mine, and not yours. When you are looking for a job 6 months from now, I hope you have more humility about our profession than you do now.

Steve

 

[Cardinal]

While 8 days off and the like are quite dissapointing, even frightening, this is not the end of the world as we know it. Retroactively punishing in a very personal matter the 78% of pilots who were dumb enough (smart enough) to follow their MECs recomendations is not a reasonable course of action. They voted for the best contract they thought they could get. They did not cross any picket line, so they are certainly not scabs. Sheesh, you even have jetdriven, one of the hardest core company bashers on this board, on the defensive. Certainly ask the Mesa guys "WTF?" but there is no need to screw with their lives in arears. Eagle voted yes on a retarded TA in the best of times, and nobody screws with them. Many carriers are in the negotiating cycle right now, mine included, and though this sucks, our unity will put Mesa's to shame. Their due recompense will come when this Beech FO is making more than their blood-sucking 70-Seater FO.

 

[mckpickle]

But thats the point your missing. Now that Mesa can do it for XX amount less, why would your management pay XX more. I bet ya money that your management will slide a copy of that steamy pile of mesa TA across the table and say, why should you guys get more. As far as kicking them off the jumpseat, I think I have softened on that but I will at least berate them a little bit before letting them on. And the Freedom guys NEVER get on. Freedom scared Mesa and Mesa screwed themselves.

 

[Jeepman]

After reading all this and the TA (UGGH!!) I know it does not bode well for us at SkyWest as we are currently in pay negotiations with our management for 70 & 90+ seat RJ's. I am also certain now that it will probably be the same pay because of this Mesa deal, but even so a 2nd year RJ FO at Skywest makes the same as a 7 year RJ FO at Mesa. And it is better than an actual pay cut.


I don't work at Mesa, never have & thank God never will. I don't know how life (if you can call it that) is over there. And I think alot of us on this board (including myself) have complained about them with this TA yet we don't fully understand what they are facing because we are not in their shoes. While I don't understand why the guys & gals at Mesa agreed to this deal, I am NOT going to deny them the jumpseat, for all I know that person may have voted against it.....now the Free-dumb guys are a different story but I say the true Mesa folks are welcome aboard.

 

[100LL... Again!]

SanJuanPlebe-

PFT'ers are wanna-bes masquerading as pilots.

PFT is for those who feel afraid to compete and must buy their job.

Cheers.

 

[captjim]

Big talk seldom materializes into real action.

It sure looks like fun, though.

Well, the action has begun. Buddy of mine tore up a j/s for right in front of a guy! I have to say I would'nt have done it that way, but I promise I'll carry a lot of fuel in the future!

No Mesa on my J/S! Unless you voted No!

 

[tacojet]

It's too small of a world to burn bridges i.e. abusing jumpseat authority. If you are trying to make a statement, write a letter to their MEC. On a side note the guy was kind of a jackass for revealing his vote, unless it was a criteria for a ride

And to address a previous point of the state of the industry, relating to Majors taking pay cuts. In my opinion their pay cuts do not equate to pay cuts for us at "regionals". If we had pay that was commensurate with their 30% pay cut it would still be a big fat RAISE.

TJ

 

[100LL... Again!]

He'll probably be hearing from the jumpseat committee soon. Unprofessional. Thuggish.

If you are going to turn doen a jumpseater, it can be done with diplomacy and tact.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Sanjuanplebe,
Can you elaborate on your statement about ASA being included in being a liabilty if U folds? I have been here 4 yrs and have yet to see one of our planes with United anywhere on it.

 

[trainerjet]

This thread has to be the biggest joke on this board in a long time.

"OH..better refuse those scabs the jompseat. That'll show 'em"

What a crock. The one guy making the most noise referred to himself and his pilot group in a differrent thread as SEASONED PROFESSIONAL(S), (*Note* I added the S.)
Maybe when you actually ARE one, you will see how ridiculous you sound. The statements you made on this and other related theads show you clearly are NOT.

Another guy said that ALPA doesn't represent him. HMMMM...aren't you a regional pilot? The same group of pilots that is screaming how you aren't getting fair representation from ALPA because they favor the majors? So, which is it? You can't have it both ways, although I guess you'll have it whichever way suits your "agenda de jour".

One other guy said no Mesa on his jumpseat unless you voted NO. Ok, so how do you plan on figuring that out?

WAIT....I'll settle this. No pilot from ANY regional whatsoever on MY jumpseat. You all are dragging down the industry with your pathetic wages.

See how absurd and ridiculous you sound? No? I didn't think so.

 

[Brett Hull]

I'm so confused

I'm not an airline pilot, but I hope to be one someday, so I have a couple of questions since I don't know how these things work.

1. If your MEC's are so strong, why does it matter what anyone else does? If your CEO gives you the "Mesa's doing it for peanuts" speech, tell him "We're not Mesa,". If your MEC's as strong as you say they are/pilot group is as unified as it should be, you should get what you want.

2. Why do you guys keep signing contracts that pays 1st year guys @18K, and then you b!tch about what other people do. If the company's pockets are deep enough for the senior guys, they should be deep enough so the new guys diet doesn't consist of ramen, right? We keep comparing our education to that of doctors and lawyers, but they don't have to "pay their dues", or take sub-standard pay for their first year, do they? Why should you? We are "Professionals", aren't we?

I think that those of you who have taken an airline job flying a 1900 or bigger for penny wages DEFINITELY shouldn't be preaching to anyone.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Veeerrrry good point about the first-year pay.

Starve the new guy.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

This thread has to be the biggest joke on this board in a long time.

"OH..better refuse those scabs the jompseat. That'll show 'em"

What a crock. The one guy making the most noise referred to himself and his pilot group in a differrent thread as SEASONED PROFESSIONAL(S), (*Note* I added the S.)
Maybe when you actually ARE one, you will see how ridiculous you sound. The statements you made on this and other related theads show you clearly are NOT.

Dam, did I forget the (S) on that word? Well thanks trainer jet for helping with my grammer. It's nice to see other professionalS in the world. I guess that 8000hrs and that major airline contract of yours has made you forget about us little guys, but that's ok I understand that you guys never really worry about our struggleS, you just climb back upon that high perch of yours and look down at the rest of us poor souls. As far as me making the most noise, well no more so than anyone else who was repulsed by that contract and while it doesn't really effect me it does hurt those in negotiationS at this point, but you wouldn't really know anything about that because as it seems by you statementS attacking several that have issues with this thing You are the only true PROFESSIONAL....

Have a good day captain...

WD.

 

[trainerjet]

Nope. Just trying to make a point. Apparently there are no mirrors in that glass house you are living in.

But I didn't really think you'd do any more than what you did. Sling a little mud in my direction. Whatever makes you feel better.

Pretty sad if you ask me.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Mud slinging just ain't my thang. I do believe however I did say in my last post in the other string that I was a bit tired of the subject and really didn't wish to pursue any further discussion on it...

See ya in the funny papers..

WD.

 

[rightrudder]

Wiskey Driver,

"while it doesn't really effect me it does hurt those in negotiationS at this point"

...I'm afraid it's gonna start to effect you (and me) sooner rather than later, take a look at the Crowley powerpoint presentation...there's several references to the new Mesa contract in his discussion of reducing costs.

 

[Dash8]

juxtaposition

here's an analogy;

mesa accepted their heinder intrusion because of what freedom was to them and for their precioussssss (please read that in the hissing gollum'esque way) 'scope'
talk to the US mainliners about their scope, oh wait, it's mostly gone.

now, mesa is every other regionals freedom, you guys have turned yourselves (except for the 179) into that which you despised most, interesting huh? and you wonder why people don't like you

btw aviatrix, no other pilots I know in the regionals have much respect for mesa pilots as a group (not individuals) , so just cause there's a few very vocal ones on here doesn't mean that they are in the minority.

you may proceed with the vilification, but it matters not to me.

 

[embdrvr]

Question for all

Can anyone tell me who wins in a jumpseat war?

 

[AWACoff]

I can tell you who doesn't win....MESA!

 

[embraerdriver]

thumbs down for mesa

you blew it now suffer!

 

[dogg]

So I have to wonder, when UAL converts all of their fee for departure contracts to simple codeshare agreements and Delta follows suit with non owned carriers what is going to happen to aca/skywest/airwis etc....if you have to go it alone can you? What routes will you fly? how will you handle reservations etc.....seems like some rough roads are ahead for you all as well....just curious when you are competing for pax outside of a fee for departure how well that is going to play........seems like Mesa could become the LCC of the 90 seat and smaller airlines... kind of a scary thought.....change is coming for us all

 

[starchkr]

You're all pricks!!! Not letting someone on your jumpseat because of something some of them had no control over. Shows your maturity level pretty well though. I kinda hope no-one lets you on their jumpseat either. Thsi industry rides on the "treat others as you want to be treated" kind of attitude, so watch out, pretty soon you will only be able to ride on your own systems.

 

[lionflyer]

You're all pricks!!! Not letting someone on your jumpseat because of something some of them had no control over.

Um, no control huh? They are the ones that voted that garbage in.

I would let MESA guys on the jumpseat but NOT Freedom guys but I'm still just an FO.

 

[Palerider957]

Fellas, I don't know. I have a hard time jamming someone up because they did something they thought would benefit them and their families. Granted the Mesa deal sounds pretty lame, but being on the outside I have no idea what pressure they were put under.

My company is in contract negotiations now, and I have no idea if the Mesa contract will affect us. You can bet all of us who are in negotiations can kiss a good raise goodbye just because of the economic climate.

Some points to think about: An earlier post made reference to the Eagle contract, that one was really the pits. I have absolutely nothing but sympathy for Eagle guys, I know they're hurting. We don't talk about denying them jumpseats, rightfully so. As for pilot unity, I heard Delta management offered moderate pay cuts from the pilot group as a whole instead of furloughs...when the senior guys flatly refused to take a pay cut to keep junior guys working, fruloughs came down the pipe. As for Mesa, I'll let them ride, I think they're hurting enough.

If our contract ever gets as bad as Mesa, I'm leaving the industry. I think all of us need to set personal tolerances, when they get soooo shi.tty we're at each others throat--it's time to do something else. I've changed careers before, I can do it again.

Flame away fellas, but it's not worth a hear attack.

 

[beechdriver]

SanJuanPlebe-

PFT'ers are wanna-bes masquerading as pilots.

PFT is for those who feel afraid to compete and must buy their job.

Cheers.

As a check airman/IOE captain for Air Midwest, I can tell you that I much prefer doing initial IOE for 300 hour San Juan grads than 1000+ hour street hires. They are, as a group, extremely prepared, disciplined, dedicated, open to criticism and VERY good at listening to instruction and acting upon it.


For what it's worth, Mesa's Pilot Development program is PFT only in the sense that the students have to cover the costs of flight training. They aren't paying for a job, as is evidenced by the number of grads who either don't get hired or bust out of training and get kicked to the curb. They are guaranteed an interview - period. As far as competition, I defy you to find another avenue into aviation that is more competitive or difficult than MAPD. It is a different road than you may have taken - quicker, probably...easier, I doubt it...just different.

 

[SanJuanPlebe]

How Mesa Contract Screwed Everyone

While I acknowlege that about 8 "Mesa Haters" are the ones who bash Mesa and the contract the most, it occurs to me that what they are complaining the most about at Mesa is something they control the most, which is what they acuse Mesa of NOT doing.

For example. You say Mesa "screwed you" by agreeing to a contract that has enhancements to the current Mesa Agreement in every section except 1, minimum bid. You say we screwed you guys.

However, how does our contract affect you? You tell your management that what's at Mesa has nothing to do with what's at your current company. You can't hold us accountable for hurting you, because remember, WE HAVE ENHANCEMENTS that will cost our company MORE money. So in short, any argument they give you about Mesa won't hold water because we are MORE EXPENSIVE than we were before 3-19-03. Hell, if we would have held out, we would have had no agreement, more Freedom Airlplanes coming online and a LOWER cost structure than we have today. Your company could have thrown a LOWER Mesa cost structure in place, even though our airline would have been shrunk and shifted to a non-union airline (Freedom).

You want to be pissed? Be pissed at Freedom Pilots. Be Pissed at Jonathan Ornstein for his Union Busting Frank Lorenzo tactics. But if you see a Mesa Pilot, thank him or her for at the very least killing Freedom and getting this whipsaw bull**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** stopped and getting ALL of our work, ALPA work.

Before you bash us, get ALL of the facts. I really think you'd have a different opinon.

The Plebe

WHO EARNED HIS JOB and did NOT PAY FOR IT