How are you going to get home??????

[Beechnut]

The benefit of an airline to develop a pilot school is to have an endless supplies of students that will take little pay (because it was better than no pay as a student) and will be glad to get in a twin engine airplane, let alone a Regional Jet.

JO was smart to dilute the work force with a plethora of SanJuanPlebes.

S

 

[Wiskey Driver]

You had to give up hopes of a good contract???????????? YOU NEVER EVER GIVE UP, you hold the fukin line and put them out of business if necessary. The plain an simple truth is you caved and were scared and now others have to try and weed thru the mess you left behind. A NO VOTE would have sent a clear message we want industry standard, instead you said paper or plastic... You guys sicken me and you disgraced the profession. Had to give j4j that's super seniority you know. Get used to the right seat even if you are in the left now it won't be long before the super senior USAIR guys bump you back to the right. You guys are super stupid!!!

WD.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Beechnut-

Bingo, bingo, bingo. THIS is our largest problem.

Peraps we need to negotiate 'flight experience' scope. Now THERE would be something that could turn things around a little.

 

[CRJ Driver]

Re: Mesa Pilots-TA Protects Scope

So we didn't "lower the bar" as the bar was already low with us. We raised it. Although not as much as Comair or Air Willy. But when you don't have ANY leverage, well you do what you have to. We saw our jobs disappear every day to new Freedom planes and pilots. Your ire should be directed at them. Had they not stepped up to enable JO to start that airline, we very well may have been able to negotiate a much better deal. /QUOTE]


You moron, the leverage is, SHUT THE MOTHER FUKER DOWN, but you guys were to afraid. Have fun in the right seat of the RJ for the next 10 years.

 

[Beechnut]

I wouldn't expect Mesa pilots to negotiate anything of the sort. They've already failed miserably. How can they stand to negotiate an "experience" clause with support from the plebes?

I do NOT discount the idea that part of AirWis's strength is the pilot group consists of experienced professionals from other airlines. We didn't even hire flight instructors when the times were good! This strength comes from experience, an unwillingness to work for a less than standard compensation, and to be treated as professionals. All of which can be found to be lacking in what, 78% of the Mesa pilot group? You didn't even have to INSTRUCT to get a job at Mesa. Of course you're happy to work for a pittance. You deserve it, you got it, now deal with the consequences.

So the original questions still stands and I have yet to see an answer. How will you guys get home?

hmmmmmmmmmmm?

S.

 

[steveg]

WOW!

I am an about to be a furloughed major guy, who just read this board for the first time. I recently JS'd on Mesa for the first time. They were very cordial, and because I got to where I wanted to go, I got a corporate job. I am extremely indebted to the guys that let me ride. Then I read through all this CRAP, and am shocked.

Who are you to criticize Mesa? Are you in their shoes? I admit I don't understand all the politics, but sheesh! EVERYONE in this industry is skating on VERY THIN ICE right now. If UAL liquidates, then what is going to happen to you Air Wisc. guys that feel so high and mighty as to look down on Mesa? For that matter, what happens when AA and UAL and DAL take 30% pay cuts? Your pay check will be the next thing mgt. goes after. What then? Will you be pissed at the majors for not DEMANDING better pay? Will you be begging Mesa to give you a JS so you can make it to an interview, or begging them for a job?

I haven't been around forever (been around the business my entire life!) but I've been here long enough to know that whoever is on top of the scrap heap is only there for a short time. When you get to the top, you better **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** well be cordial to whoever is at your heels, because they are about to pull you down. One of the number one problems in this business is the pilots who think they are better than everyone else. I submit to you that Air Wis., and Skywest, and whoever else you want to name, are in really bad shape right now. You may have better pay than Mesa, but are your jobs any better off? Ever hear the expression, Highest pay till the last day? Remember, the people you won't give the JS too, and you look down on (for something that you cannot truly understand) are the people you are going to begging to help you tommorrow.

Steve

 

[mckpickle]

But Steveg, thats what you dont understand. By Mesa voting this pos in, they have allowed themselves to "undercut" anyone else in the industry. Now who do you think the Majors are going to go looking at for feed? A company that pays very well, or one that has slave wages. And on top of that, within days of the TA coming out, Management come to OUR pilot group and say, no way can we give you what you want because MESA just undercut.

They think they did this for "air tight scope" . Tell me, as you work for a major, How air tight is your scope?

 

[aviatrix]

Who are you to criticize Mesa? Are you in their shoes? I admit I don't understand all the politics, but sheesh! EVERYONE in this industry is skating on VERY THIN ICE right now. If UAL liquidates, then what is going to happen to you Air Wisc. guys that feel so high and mighty as to look down on Mesa? For that matter, what happens when AA and UAL and DAL take 30% pay cuts? Your pay check will be the next thing mgt. goes after. What then? Will you be pissed at the majors for not DEMANDING better pay? Will you be begging Mesa to give you a JS so you can make it to an interview, or begging them for a job?

Very well said, steveg! I wish you much luck through your furlough and on into your corporate job.
It's the same seven Mesa-bashers on this board and by no means the majority!

 

[SanJuanPlebe]

Mesa TA Questions & Answers

First off, no one at Mesa is happy with this contract in its present
form. However looking at the overall picture of the economy, the
fiscal strength of our codeshare partners and the fact that each of
our five codeshare partners(HP/US/ME/F9/UAL) have taken the Fed Money
to stay in operation and the fact that JO was just stalling for time
to build Freedom - our negotiating committee felt it was the best we
could get in this environment. Two of our codeshare partners have
filed CH 11 and we're concerned they are going to file CH 7. So
looking at the big picture, I have to agree with them. Currently we
have 5-10 year contract extensions with HP/US that give us route
protection even if they continue in or file CH. 11.

The offer was also put on the table by mistake by our CEO. He never
had intended to put anything real on the table. He hadn't really put
anythin on the table up to this point. But on this day, he put up a
hypothetical offer and felt that it wouldn't be accepted by the NMB
rep. as an offer...he was wrong - we went to caucus. He had never
once put scope on the table. He gave us an outrageous offer in the
heat of anger that he thought we'd turn down. In fact, after he said
what he said, his attorney just put his face in his hands. He hadn't
any intentions of doing that. He wanted to put a hypothetical offer
on the table and use the notes/sound bites from the negotiations to
take it to the pilots and show them that their union had an offer on
the table but turned it down and that is the reason Freedom was
growing and the fact that mesa was shrinking. He had serious
intentions of furloughing 200 at the end of that day of negotiations.
Our negotiating committee had several dealings with JO over the past
years. They felt that he wasn't bluffing this time - other times they
could tell he was but this time was different and they knew it. We
were very close to going into a 30-day cooling off period when we had
our accident in CLT. That was played and maximized to the company's
benefit in stalling negotiations and thus enabling them more time to
grow Freedom. They asked for a six month reprieve from negotiations -
they were only awarded 30 days. Either way, that delay, the pending
middle east conflict and the rise of Freedom really hurt us in
leverage. We would have a hard time getting any sympathy with a
strike in the middle of a war. We didn't feel that the White House
would work fairly with us because JO had already been in contact with
them. The fact that our codeshare partners had Fed Money means to me
that Bush wasn't going to let us walk the line that easily. If we had
turned the TA down we would have had to reelect and train a
negotiating committee(6-8 mos). By that time, our Freedom wing would
have had over 500-600 pilots. When we signed this TA - Freedom had 56
guys on-line with another 40 in training and another 40 coming for
training. Mesa is currently spooling up with two concurrent ground
schools montly to fill the vacancies that we have on the Freedom
side. 0600-1500 and 1500-2400 are the ground school times with 30 in
each class. That is 60 pilots per month. By June, they would have had
well over 300 pilots and Mesa would have begun to take the flying
from Mesa and give it to Freedom. Then we would have lost what little
leverage we had remaining. Had we not had that accident we would have
gone out for 30 days around the time this TA was signed(a month and a
half ago) when we would have had more leverage because Freedom was so
small at that time, the war talk was nothing more than sabre rattling
and Mesa was taking large aircraft deliveries.

It's important that you know that we didn't negotiate this secton or
for that matter seven other sections. We had spoken to US Alpa and
knew that the deadline for the J4J agreement was the following
morning at 0800. We didn't share that knowledge with him of course.
JO put the offer up on the table went something like this:

JO: (beginning of negotiations) "We have to have a deal today by 1700
or furlough notices go out for 200 tomorrow morning"
ALPA: Negotiates for four hours to no avail. Then at 1615 hours the
following round of discussions occur.

JO: (yelling at ALPA) "Why won't you take the f'ing deal?
ALPA: (ALPA Calmly)"Simple, there's no scope."
JO: (in extreme anger)Your F'ing scope, the agreed upon sections and
the rest of my offer?
ALPApauses to think - this is the only time he has ever offered
anything - chats with his partner) "We'd like to go to caucus on
that."
JO: "What?, that wasn't an offer - it was a hypothetical!"
ALPA and JO look at the NMB Deputy Chief of Staff who was mediating
the negotiations
NMB: "Sounded like an offer to me".
MESA ATTORNEY: puts face in hands and shakes head
ALPA Retreats to caucus because we had to have an answer to him in 45
minutes or the deal is off and furloughs begin.
ALPA returns and accepts the offer
JO: "I'll have to think about it?"
NMB:"You have to think about your own offer?" NMB looks rather
sternly at JO.....
JO: "We accept".

Had JO not accepted it - we would have requested a 30 day cooling off
period immediately. I'm pretty sure we would have gotten it.

What we did win was scope protection. This was our single biggest
victory. This captured Freedom airlines under our ALPA contract. It
also prevents JO from whipsawing us in the same manner that he has in
the past. ie with CC Air and Freedom. He can't just start up an alter-
ego airline again - if he does, its under our agreement. We're not
happy with the QOL issues or $$$ but we can wait for another day to
fight that particular battle This was part of the JO's "my offer"
that was on the table. Had we tried to discuss or change any section
of the contractual offer - he could have revoked his offer and then
furloughed guys and put us all on the street within 18 months. NO
DOUBTS

All CRJ crews are going to be trained on the 200/700/900. What you
make will depend what they put on your route for operational
flexibility due to load capacity needed. We'll operate each
200/700/900's out of our PHX base.

Anyone that gives Mesa guys any crap for not towing the line in
negotiations doesn't know the full story. We did what we could to
capture Freedom in scope which was our primary goal. We set a
prescedent in regards to that. We just lost our leverage due to our
unfortunate accident in CLT. It's quite shameful that our management
would use that tragic accident as leverage in their pursuits - but
they did. Just shows you the character of the men we were dealing
with at that time.

Now to add insult to injury I see some of you guys threatning -
promising - not to offer the courtesy of a jumpseat rider from Mesa.
This is unfortunate. I hope that the majority of the pilots don't
feel that way. We did what we had to do in this battle but the war is
far from over.

 

[mckpickle]

Wow, you guys fell for JO. Your neg com. should be hung. Did ya ever think any of that was staged????? Face it JO is better than the Mesa neg com. He beat you guys. Beat ya all real good. I guess your neg com forgot that if he furloughed everyone no one would fly the airplanes


You guys got beotch slapped! Then you said, "HIT me again IKE and this time PUT SOME STANK ON IT"

 

[steveg]

Thanks Aviatrix, sometimes people get my dander up.

Mckpickle, been there done that. On both sides of the equation. All I'm saying is that your company, whoever it is, is just a heartbeat away from an even worse situation than Mesa. Those guys are just trying to keep a job and feed their family. If you think Mesa is going to determine your future, you are sadly mistaken. You work for a company that works for a major airline. Read the paper, look on the net, airlines are in HORRIBLE shape! If you have to take a big paycut next month, it's not because of Mesa. We are all looking at cuts. I went from 120K/year, to 55/k. And I am extremely happy and excited! Do I blame AWA who has a lower pay scale than my airline? Heck NO! I would be greatful to get hired there (well not really, I've had it w/airlines).

My experience is that pilots are way too worried about what other pilots make, and never worried enough about the airlines. When was the last time you submitted a brief to your company about how they can save money? When was the last time you welcomed a pilot from another airline (MESA) and asked them what they were doing to help the company survive? I suspect your answer is that you are a pilot and not mgmt! How dare I even think of helping mgmt!

Believe me, you better start worrying about your own future, and not some other airline's. I've had plenty of experience with ALPA and other unions. If you think they are your guarantee to a bright future, then you better look twice, and check your six. There are a lot of EAL pilots that think they won, who are still unemployed. Good luck in your career, and never forget that we are in this together. One last question, what would happen if all the major airline pilots adopted the same stance you have? What if we all walked because mgmt. allowed lower pay commuter pilots to codeshare? Would you have a job? Are you still God's gift to aviation when you look at like that? I sincerely wish you luck in your career. Hopefully you won't have to go to several commuters and majors, only to get furloughed and probably never recalled. At least I'm nice to my fellow pilots. Why aren't you?

Steve

PS. The war has started. Let's all say a prayer for our soldiers and the people in the Middle East.

 

[SanJuanPlebe]

How Will We Get Home?

Probably on our own airline since we apparently aren't welcome on yours.

It's a real shame to see stuff on this board that belongs in elementary school.

I didn't beat around the patch in a C152 with a student at the controls, but me logging the flight "experience" because I was in a different career and chose to make a change to the airlines that required expedience because of my age.

The argument about ab-initio training should be in a different thread, not here. But I will say that those that critique it the most are folks that are frustrated they didn't do it that way.

Critiquing a pilot based on how he/she became qualified would be the same as me suggesting you must be a small-penis-loser who can only get hired at a regional airline and can't make it at a major. It doesn't hold water. I don't know you or why you are where you are. As such, it only detracts from my intelligence and credibility to paint folks with such a broad brush. You may live where you fly, like the aircraft, the company. Who knows. The point is that everyone has their own reasons and we shouldn't judge based on half the information. And the point stressed at the recent ALPA BOD in FLA was that we are ALL PILOTS...regardless of employer, experience of where we trained. And we should support each other.

I would offer that many have judged our TA without all the information. I've posted an informative piece submitted by someone who was there. If, after reading it, you still think the same, and have compared the previous contract with the new TA, and you still feel the same, that's fine.

But to make the comments that have been posted and threaten a jumpseat denial is unprofessional and should never be condoned.

Read the news. Air Wisconsin, ASA, ACA, and Skywest (Skywest less because they are more diversified) are in a position of great liability if United folds. Even if they don't fold, you can expect major cuts. And that's not Mesa's fault. So, if you're pissed off and looking for someone to blame, don't look to us. We have nothing to do with you and our only code-share is for Dashes only. We have all the business we can handle right now plus we're having a hard time financing airplanes, like everyone else.

We need to be professional. We need to support each other as best as possible and stick together. Instead of asking us to "shut the **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**er down" when we were able to make improvements in our contract and put people back to work, just doesn't make sense. Especially in this environment. And this had the blessing of ALPA.

If you want to attack me personally, go ahead. But it makes you look small.

 

[mckpickle]

Re: How Will We Get Home?

We need to be professional. We need to support each other as best as possible and stick together.

We offered support. We offered it and any pilot I know would have gladly payed a assesment to provide for you (just like comair) in the event of a strike. We were willing to give any and all help to you we could. But you caved. You gave in to the nonsense of a lunatic with dooms day proficies. Its bad, But its not 8 days off or 1.15 and hour or seat lock provsions bad. You negotiate what you want and then give a little back later if you have to. You guys gave in and gave up.

 

[steveg]

You guys gave in and gave up, but you still have a job, which is better than most.

We gave you support and offered to pay an assesment. As long as you do what we prescribe as right. And NO, I don't know a thing about your airline or situation, trust me though, I'm right.

Sorry, I'm just another pilot that is going to tell you how you should do things. After all, I've never worked for Mesa, but I'm a pilot and that gives me the right to tell you how to operate. What were you thinking not sigining for 200/hr? You weak fools! Now I am going to make less! How could you do this to me?

You know, the sad thing is, there are pilots that really think this way. Tonight, when we have soldiers risking their lives for us, some of us sit here and critique others outside of our own myopic view of the world. I really do feel sorry for the pilots that blame others for their place in the world. The Mesa pilots had a tough decision to make. You may or may not like it. Bottom line is, it was their decision. Not mine, and not yours. When you are looking for a job 6 months from now, I hope you have more humility about our profession than you do now.

Steve

 

[Cardinal]

While 8 days off and the like are quite dissapointing, even frightening, this is not the end of the world as we know it. Retroactively punishing in a very personal matter the 78% of pilots who were dumb enough (smart enough) to follow their MECs recomendations is not a reasonable course of action. They voted for the best contract they thought they could get. They did not cross any picket line, so they are certainly not scabs. Sheesh, you even have jetdriven, one of the hardest core company bashers on this board, on the defensive. Certainly ask the Mesa guys "WTF?" but there is no need to screw with their lives in arears. Eagle voted yes on a retarded TA in the best of times, and nobody screws with them. Many carriers are in the negotiating cycle right now, mine included, and though this sucks, our unity will put Mesa's to shame. Their due recompense will come when this Beech FO is making more than their blood-sucking 70-Seater FO.

 

[mckpickle]

But thats the point your missing. Now that Mesa can do it for XX amount less, why would your management pay XX more. I bet ya money that your management will slide a copy of that steamy pile of mesa TA across the table and say, why should you guys get more. As far as kicking them off the jumpseat, I think I have softened on that but I will at least berate them a little bit before letting them on. And the Freedom guys NEVER get on. Freedom scared Mesa and Mesa screwed themselves.

 

[Jeepman]

After reading all this and the TA (UGGH!!) I know it does not bode well for us at SkyWest as we are currently in pay negotiations with our management for 70 & 90+ seat RJ's. I am also certain now that it will probably be the same pay because of this Mesa deal, but even so a 2nd year RJ FO at Skywest makes the same as a 7 year RJ FO at Mesa. And it is better than an actual pay cut.


I don't work at Mesa, never have & thank God never will. I don't know how life (if you can call it that) is over there. And I think alot of us on this board (including myself) have complained about them with this TA yet we don't fully understand what they are facing because we are not in their shoes. While I don't understand why the guys & gals at Mesa agreed to this deal, I am NOT going to deny them the jumpseat, for all I know that person may have voted against it.....now the Free-dumb guys are a different story but I say the true Mesa folks are welcome aboard.

 

[100LL... Again!]

SanJuanPlebe-

PFT'ers are wanna-bes masquerading as pilots.

PFT is for those who feel afraid to compete and must buy their job.

Cheers.

 

[captjim]

Big talk seldom materializes into real action.

It sure looks like fun, though.

Well, the action has begun. Buddy of mine tore up a j/s for right in front of a guy! I have to say I would'nt have done it that way, but I promise I'll carry a lot of fuel in the future!

No Mesa on my J/S! Unless you voted No!

 

[tacojet]

It's too small of a world to burn bridges i.e. abusing jumpseat authority. If you are trying to make a statement, write a letter to their MEC. On a side note the guy was kind of a jackass for revealing his vote, unless it was a criteria for a ride

And to address a previous point of the state of the industry, relating to Majors taking pay cuts. In my opinion their pay cuts do not equate to pay cuts for us at "regionals". If we had pay that was commensurate with their 30% pay cut it would still be a big fat RAISE.

TJ