horizon

[turbodriver]

As an outsider to the airlines I'm an ART- Air Reserve Tech (aka full time Air Force Reservist). So my question for you regional guys (and think hard about this) is would you like to sit in front of a computer for 40+ hours a week, getting so much management BS in that time and fly once a week in addition to those 40+ hours (so 48+ hours a week) for a 3.5 duration, and have to put in an additional 8 hours of work and make 75K a year OR fly the line a Horizon?

75K per year sounds nice right about now in this time of layoffs and concessions......

 

[tomdav]

Fo transition

For the new hire coming to Horizon this is for you.


First a little history.

Back around 96 I think we were ammending our payscales and the topic of having differential pay for FO's came up. At that time we were all paid the same regardless of equipment type. The argument was that the F28 FO's fly bigger equipment and have more resposibility so they should be compensated. This created a mini revolt by others who would have been paid less than someone VERY junior to them. Adding insult, they were told you too can make the higher FO pay when your 42 month freeze is up. Of course this would involve another 42 month freeze in that seat. At a meeting during these discussions I mentioned maybe we should pay FO's by what equipment they can hold so It would be as fair as possible. Well our reps said no way, never work It was to bad because we left alot of money on the table.

Here is the language as it now stands in regard to seat locks.



2. A First officer who is eligible to bid, and who has bid, for another First Officer position will be selected for the postition if he is:

a. The senior bidder, and

b. His seniority is within the group that is entitled to be on the higher pay
scale.

3. A First Officer who bids and is selected for training for another First Officer
position:

a. Shall not be eligible for another position for a two year period, except
for an upgrade on the same equipment which may be bid after one
year; and,

b. During such a two year period will be paid at the lowest First Officer
pay scale rate.


This was not slipped to us by Managment, everyone had a chance to read the contract and discuss this during our meetings with the reps at our union meetings. If it was such a big problem we could have voted no and tried to get it fixed but I guess enough FO's didn't care or did not even read the contract. Of course I'm sure all the Cpt's had a problem with this item as well.

I've been hearing we are having trouble getting well qualified applicants now. I dont know this as fact but with our upgrade time and FO seat lock I would not be suprised. If you want to come to Horizon but have other options I might want to request in writing your equipment type and base. Not sure if this would work but you never know.

Tom Davies

 

[QCappy]

I have to laugh at some of the Horizon FO's whining on this board. While I can sympathize with your desire to fly a jet, or hopefully it is your desire to have a better schedule, I cannot believe the crap you guys are putting out. I sat in the right seat for only 4.5 years, so I can't relate to a six year FO, however I don't see what the big deal is about not being able to bid bigger aircraft. Most of you were probably hired at age 23-25 and didn't have much time to begin with. I was too. You will still fly a jet for about 30 years, so don't let that part get to you. Enjoy your time in whatever seat you are in, have fun doing it, and maybe, just maybe you will enjoy your time at work. And if you don't like the contract, change it when you have the chance, it's coming. Participate in the union and help make it a better place.

I hate the schedules in the Q200 too, but I try to have fun at work and make the most of it. Heck, I though it was great to be sitting in the right seat of a dash making $42/hr. I didn't have to go through the stress of training on another aircraft, another checkride, etc. and I got paid as if I went through all that. All the while, I didn't have to commute to another base. Look on the bright side. You could be flight instructing, flying night cargo, or worse yet be like the thousands right now that are on the street or are about to be.

I just hope I don't have to fly with any of you sourpusses. I would hate to be dragged down by your crappy attitude. If you don't like it....leave. The grass is always greener.....!

 

[QXbuzzard]

Below the line!

Transponder Alt, controls free, FA notify complete, YD/FD on-set, bleeds on-min.

Oh wait, I'm not at work.


That is a very good point. I have instructed and flew 3 winters in the northwest flying lovely piston twins with cargo, and was also unemployed for the first time in my life a few years ago. I have to remind myself sometimes that when I hate thinking about a long upgrade and things like that, I am the one who signed on. Nobody told me I had to fly here. I grew up in this area as have a lot of pilots here. I don't feel like commuting or moving so what really is better out there. I have friends at Skywest that are going to be calling me someday saying to me "how many more years to upgrade, I just did here." Whatever right.
As for the flying the jet thing, it would be cool. and someday. For now, I try to enjoy my job in the 200. It doesn't matter what plane you are in, there is always someone complaining. We don't like our Yakima overnights, the 400 guys may not like Montana, and the jet people may not like Fresno. Either way, someone will always want more. I look at it this way, when I do upgrade, I will know this airplane pretty well, and will know a lot of the captain flows too.
At this point in the game, changing the pay structure and aircraft bidding policies would be foolish. There would be a lot of people trying to make changes and would I want someone junior to me to start making 7 dollars more an hour than me because he or she is in the jet? No way. All I can say is anyone who wants to go to Skywest or somewhere else, please go. Don't hold the rest of us up that want to be here. Sure no one wants a 6 year upgrade, but it is what it is. I do understand the 6 year fo's who are frustrated, I would be too. This industry is so cyclical that who knows what could happen. I am just glad that I am not on the street or instructing or trying not to kill myself everyday flying cargo.

 

[Yank McCobb]

At this point in the game, changing the pay structure and aircraft bidding policies would be foolish. There would be a lot of people trying to make changes and would I want someone junior to me to start making 7 dollars more an hour than me because he or she is in the jet? No way.

A typical response. If you want to make the extra 7 dollars an hour, then you would have the option to bid over if your seniority would hold it. You would do like everyone else. Decide what is more important to you...the extra 7 dollars and the QOL that goes with bidding the jet, or the $$ and the QOL where you are now. But you are right. Why change anything that would benefit the masses...you have yours, right?? This line of thinking is why that contract exists today.

Yeah, I said I was done with this subject...and this time I really am. I just wanted to point out a PERFECT example of why things are the way they are. And the solution, instead of working to make things better, is to tell those who don't like it to quit. Yep...a PERFECT example of what is wrong.

 

[QXbuzzard]

Trust me Yank, if given the opportunity to have the flexibility like other airlines to bid in to different equipment maybe I'd do it. But why would I bid to the jet just to have to sit reserve until I upgrade. If a mass of 200 fo's went to the 400 or jet, great then maybe I could have a good line in the 200 and if needed in a bid, add a couple of trips so I could make more money. But I do want quality of life. If it meant staying in the 200 for better QOL, your damn right I would. Besides, flying the RJ isn't going to get you to an upgrade quicker, and SIC turbine time doesn't mean sh!$ to anyone else whether it is an RJ or an old Dash 8. I am not the reason things are the way they are. I wasn't here in 2001 when this contract became what it is. Trust me, there are things I want to change and being only 1 of 700, I can do my part, but if the majority vote for something I don't like, then I am stuck with what is handed to me until the next time, or I could leave. Why not just try to make the most of what we have until given the opportunity to change it. When that time comes, then start complaining and voicing opinions to the right people. Until then, as I said before I will try to make the most of my lovely Yakima overnights.

 

[Icelandair]

A typical response. If you want to make the extra 7 dollars an hour, then you would have the option to bid over if your seniority would hold it. You would do like everyone else. Decide what is more important to you...the extra 7 dollars and the QOL that goes with bidding the jet, or the $$ and the QOL where you are now. But you are right. Why change anything that would benefit the masses...you have yours, right?? This line of thinking is why that contract exists today.

Yeah, I said I was done with this subject...and this time I really am. I just wanted to point out a PERFECT example of why things are the way they are. And the solution, instead of working to make things better, is to tell those who don't like it to quit. Yep...a PERFECT example of what is wrong.

That would work fine if they started everyone in the 200. But why should a snot nosed kid whose father knows someone get jet pay for 4 extra years just because he got into the jet before someone starting on the 200 even gets the option to bid over?

 

[Southbound]

This place (Horizon) will NEVER be anything more than some insignificant small jet and turboprop operator with better than average equipment, an average contract and good Western US bases. The management will always pretend they want to be something more but they do not have the tools to do so and until the management changes (which it won't), this place will have 692 pilots and 19 jets (fewer then when I was hired). The Dash schedules suck but those guys seem to have more fun, the jet easy on the body, is fun to fly, better schedules but at the end of the day, it is still SIC. SIC is fine if you have no career aspirations to fly for a major or national and fly to more than 15 airports. Which leads me to another question, how many airline jobs are really worth having at this point anyway? SWA, Fed EX, UPS and maybe Alaska? The whole rest of the pile is out of money with the exception of AirTran.

Seems to me, most who are staying at Horizon never expected to stay but they had a slower than anticipated upgrade, couldn't get hired elsewhere, or got settled in a city, or had kids, house, etc and pretty soon there is no reason to start this journey all over again. It works for many.
Make your choices accordingly

 

[DoubleDown]

I agree with QXbuzzard and SouthBound. Like I said in another thread, the thing I have always liked about Horizon is that we're not all hung up on equipment. In fact anyone who even mentions that they might be cooler because they fly the 400 or jet is immediatly labeled a douch.

 

[Yank McCobb]

That would work fine if they started everyone in the 200. But why should a snot nosed kid whose father knows someone get jet pay for 4 extra years just because he got into the jet before someone starting on the 200 even gets the option to bid over?

I guess you still don't get it and I am tired of trying to explain...but if things were done in a fair and equitable manner...like BIDDING on your equipment and domicile as a new hire...or if assigned, not being seat locked forever so you COULD bid out...like nearly everywhere on the face of the earth does it, then things take care of themselves and the "snot nosed kid" is the same as you superior aviators.

However, like I said, you all seem content with the contract, so...so be it. I sincerely hope you continue to enjoy your careers, wherever they may take you.

Yank out (on the subject of Horizon).

 

[QCappy]

Hey QXBuzzard,

I like your attitude. Let's go flying and have a beer or 12 in Yakima sometime. I know enough Spanish so we don't get knifed!

 

[Southbound]

Shouldn't that be "Yank Off"