Hold on tight

[Propilot77]

Insert...horse before the cart here. This is a wait and see game. Cooler heads will prevail. Three common analogies in that one!

Always a man of wisdom! Great to hear from you again, "Eh"!

 

[Cavpilot]

Praetorian, you flat out wrong. An Arbitrator would decide what is fair and equitable in the event that CS decertifies. It's spelled out in black and white in the McCaskill-Bond statue. The Teamsters would argue for DOH but there is no way an arbitrator is going to place over 80 percent of the CS pilots on the bottom 20 percent of the seniority list, period.


Insofar as the merger affects the seniority rights of the carriers' employees, provisions shall be made for the integration of seniority lists in a fair and equitable manner, including, where applicable, agreement through collective bargaining between the carriers and the representatives of the employees affected. In the event of failure to agree, the dispute may be submitted by either part for adjustment in accordance with section 13.

Allegheny-Mohawk, 59 C.A.B. at 45.

Section 13 mandated arbitration of disputes with employees that arose in this process or under any of the other provisions of the Allegheny-Mohawk LPPs.2 Section 13 provides:

In the event that any dispute or controversy (except as to matters arising under section 9) arises with respect to the protections provided herein which cannot be settled by the parties within 20 days after the controversy arises, it may be referred by any party to an arbitrator selected from a panel of seven names furnished by the National Mediation Board for consideration and determination. The parties shall select the arbitrator from such panel by alternatively striking names until only one remains, and he shall serve as arbitrator. Expedited hearings and decisions will be expected, and a decision shall be rendered within 90 days after the controversy arises, unless an extension of time is mutually agreeable to all parties. The salary and expenses of the arbitrator shall be borne equally by the carrier and (i) the organization or organizations representing employee or employees or (ii) if unrepresented, the employee or employees or group or groups of employees.

You have left out one of the key factors an arbitrator would use to determine a seniority list integration, that is career expectation. Based on the path that CS/CA has been on for the last few years, I think that it's safe to say that an arbitrator would weigh heavily toward the Flops pilot group.

Look, I'm a NetJets guy and don't have a horse in this race. However, I'm very interested to see the outcome of this issue. But then again, this supposed merger is still all hearsay, innuendo, rumor and gossip. One last thing; here is a down and dirty legal view of seniority list integration:


http://afaonevoice.org/images/McCaskill Amendment explanation FINAL for WEB.pdf

 

[outerfix]

"Career expectations" was the old ALPA merger policy and is one of many methods to determine a fair integration and usually does not include the health of the carrier. Do you think the American pilots should be stapled because they are in bankruptcy? And nobody knows how CS is doing as the books are sealed. I believe the Midwest/Republic integration is in arbitration now. It will be interesting to see what the outcome is.

Republic and the Teamsters argued that the transaction was not a merger. Instead of acquiring an air carrier, Republic had rather acquired some assets related to air transportation, they argued. Soon after the purchase, Republic returned Midwest's nine leased planes to Boeing and abandoned Midwest's flying certificate from federal regulators. Republic did, however, take over Midwest's air routes.

A district court ruled in favor of Republic and the Teamsters, concluding that the federal law was never meant to protect the employees of an air carrier that "simply goes out of business." But the 7th Circuit disagreed.

"One cannot remove bankrupt and soon-to-disappear carriers from the statute's coverage, as the Teamsters propose, without simultaneously circumventing the statutory text and frustrating the design behind it," Judge Frank Easterbrook wrote for the three-judge panel.

The court noted that the federal law requiring seniority integration itself grew out of American Airlines' acquisition of Trans World Airlines, which was bankrupt and on the brink of closing down.

Marianne Robbins, a lawyer for Republic and the Teamsters, did not immediately respond to a request for comment. Republic and the Teamsters' Airline Division did not immediately return calls for comment.

Edward Gilmartin, general counsel for the Association of Flight Attendants-CWA and a lawyer for the Midwest flight attendants, said the 7th Circuit was the first appellate court to address the issue. The court "firmly established that once two carriers merge, there must be a fair and equitable seniority integration for the workers," he said.

 

[outerfix]

Insert...horse before the cart here. This is a wait and see game. Cooler heads will prevail. Three common analogies in that one!

I have some as well, It's complicated, you wouldn't understand. Run along and let the big boys conduct business. Don't worry, we have your best interests at heart.

 

[Praetorian]

Hey guys. Methinks this fella ^^^^^^ has shown his hand.

What do you think?

 

[outerfix]

What hand is that? I'm just beating the drum as loud as I can for a fair integration, if there is an integration.

 

[jetwash]

What hand is that? I'm just beating the drum as loud as I can for a fair integration, if there is an integration.

Why do I have a feeling that if there is an integration, no matter what happens you will be unhappy

Ask the guys from Avantair if they would want to be in your position and ask yourself if you would want to be in theirs.

 

[dime line]

What hand is that? I'm just beating the drum as loud as I can for a fair integration, if there is an integration.

ahhhhh the sky is falling.........STAPLE.........ahhhhh sht

Ps, I'm posting this on behalf of B19

 

[JokerFuel]

I have some as well, It's complicated, you wouldn't understand. Run along and let the big boys conduct business. Don't worry, we have your best interests at heart.

And there it is...all of it. It's conjecture until the "Leaders" have lead. Otherwise this is a waste of time and effort. Good luck to the little guy. Bottom line.....it's about the outside not the inside. House, wife (if you have one), and the kids. The rest is ********************e! Good luck to us all.

 

[outerfix]

Why do I have a feeling that if there is an integration, no matter what happens you will be unhappy

Ask the guys from Avantair if they would want to be in your position and ask yourself if you would want to be in theirs.

Thanks for caring about my happiness. I appreciate it.

That's like asking an innocent man if he would rather have ten years or the death penalty. If there is going to be an integration, I want it to be fair. If I am going to end up on the street, as aero boy seems to think, I'll deal with it. Do you think that someone who does this much research does not have a back up plan or two?

Praetorian, please stop with the cryptic innuendos, if you have something to say, say it.

Joker, engaging you would be like beating up Buddha. Peace out my brother.

 

[Fresh Air]

And what if Aero Boy is correct again?

Thought I was done with this thread, but there's one more point that needs to be discussed.

If Aero Boy's info is correct again, Ricci's plan is to put the CS pilots out on the street.

The "evil" Teamsters lawyers have stated that buying over 50 percent of CS assets would constitute buying that carrier, and M-B would be in effect, meaning that your pilots would have to be integrated rather than fired.

CS aircraft and accounts receivable would certainly amount to more than 50% of CS assets.

If the CS pilots are represented, and Ricci fires you all, guess who will be fighting Flight Options in court to keep your jobs secure? That's right, those "evil" Teamsters that Outerfix wants to kick out the door. That's me, my 300 colleagues at FO, and millions of Teamsters around the country, paying dues to hire lawyers to fight for your jobs.

If you follow the lead of those who want to decertify your Union, and Ricci fires you, then who will be fighting Flight Options? A small group of unemployed pilots.

No doubt Outerfix and whoever else is on the decertification band wagon are only doing what they think is best, from their point of view. Of course, since this is an anonymous message board, who knows what that point of view is? CS pilot? Paid Union buster? FO manager? Who really knows?

Point is, intentional or not, some folks are trying to drive off a cliff, and encouraging the CS pilot group to follow.

 

[OHGOON]

Outerfix,

It's been said here more than once. It will be DOH and fences with the Teamsters and it will be something similar to that without them. What you have not answered is how you are going to represent yourself in front of the inevitable arbitrator? Who is going to pay for the lawyers you are going to need? Who is going to come up with a common strategy to present your case? WHO IS GOING TO PAY?

What if Ricci decides to "violate" the M-B amendment or try to ignore it? WHO IS GOING TO PAY to take him to court? Are you going to pay all that while on the street collecting unemployment and looking for your next gig?

Arbitration and lawsuits take time and are very expensive...how are you as an unrepresented single individual better off in these scenarios?

 

[AeroBoy]

You all are assuming that Directional is "buying" CitationAir.

 

[Praetorian]

Thought I was done with this thread, but there's one more point that needs to be discussed.

If Aero Boy's info is correct again, Ricci's plan is to put the CS pilots out on the street.

The "evil" Teamsters lawyers have stated that buying over 50 percent of CS assets would constitute buying that carrier, and M-B would be in effect, meaning that your pilots would have to be integrated rather than fired.

CS aircraft and accounts receivable would certainly amount to more than 50% of CS assets.

If the CS pilots are represented, and Ricci fires you all, guess who will be fighting Flight Options in court to keep your jobs secure? That's right, those "evil" Teamsters that Outerfix wants to kick out the door. That's me, my 300 colleagues at FO, and millions of Teamsters around the country, paying dues to hire lawyers to fight for your jobs.

If you follow the lead of those who want to decertify your Union, and Ricci fires you, then who will be fighting Flight Options? A small group of unemployed pilots.

No doubt Outerfix and whoever else is on the decertification band wagon are only doing what they think is best, from their point of view. Of course, since this is an anonymous message board, who knows what that point of view is? CS pilot? Paid Union buster? FO manager? Who really knows?

Point is, intentional or not, some folks are trying to drive off a cliff, and encouraging the CS pilot group to follow.

Well said brother!

 

[jetwash]

You all are assuming that Directional is "buying" CitationAir.

Can you expand on this?

Seeing as you have been proven to have the best info on this topic can you look into the crystal ball and let us know what is up in more detail?