Hobby Crash?

[fokkerjet]

Gang. Isn't this all about using some common sense here? If I want to use the whole runway, like when I land at our home airport and I know I can save some time by landing (or should I say rolling out) long, I ask ATC somewhere on final. Looking at the TCAS display, you can get a pretty good idea if someone is screaming up your tailpipe, and if so, minimum time on the runway is in order, otherwise just clear the runway at the first "comfortable" taxiway. Saving brakes are great, but most brakes are carbon now, so wear isn't an issue of how hard you push, but how many times as you push them.

 

[eljefe]

Once again, "What's the hurry?"

You might ask yourself that question when you're the one going around, and explaining it to your boss, because the guy on runway 19 at TEB rolled to the end to avoid a little extra braking.

Or if you're the one who's #30 in line for take-off and the launch rate is agonzingly slow because everyone in front of you is taking their good ol' time.

If you're landing at Podunk at 2300...roll to the end if you like. But it's only common sense to use the runway for as short a time as is reasonably practical at a busy time at a busy airport to increase the capacity of the airport.

It's in all of our best interests to do so. And if a controller says "position and hold, be prepared for no delay, traffic on 3 mile final, I'd prefer that to waiting indefinitely for him to make a hole in arrivals so I can take my good ol' time.

We ought to wait for the investigation of the accident in HOU to be completed before we jump to any conclusions. Maybe that "expedite takeoff" or whatever it was, had nothing to do with it. But I, for one, shiver when I hear anybody suggest anything that will increase delays at our already over crowded airports.

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

Another point that F/O and others should consider is safety. Is rolling to the end safe? If you push the brakes a little harder and stop earlier on the runway, you will be in a much better position if there is a problem. Studies have shown that one of the biggest dangers to a jet airplane is high speed while on the ground (runway). If Hawker F/O is really looking to be conservative and safe, he should stand on those brakes a little harder and get his plane slowed to a safer speed sooner. Also, is it safe to sit on an active runway? When I call in #1 for takeoff, I'm ready to go. I don't want to waste any time sitting with my blind side to landing traffic.

Yes, son, slower is not always safer. If you can't move quickly when you need to, you might want to consider a different business.

Ace

 

[HawkerF/O]

1st, please don't call me son; you are insulting my mother. I ask you to go back and find one post where I suggest that I roll to the end when I land. Show me where I posted that. Come on, where did I write that I roll to the end when I land? It is very rare for me to do that. That is the problem with the board, people read posts, then selectively choose what they want to respnd to instead of absorbing the entire post. What I said is that I am not going to check up to exit a runway. I land the same way each time:
REF +10 a mile out
Over the fence at REF
Mains touch: Reversers to Idle Deploy and Extension of Ground Spoilers
Nose wheel touchdown: Reversers to Full Reverse (I do this so the power is there if I need it)
As the Engines start to Spool: Reduction of Reverse Thrust to a setting appropriate for the given conditions and tap the brakes ever so slightly to make sure they are available
60 Knots: Reversers to Idle Deploy and 1st use of brakes
At this point and only at this point am I now going to be receptive to exiting instructions. I think the afore mentioned technique is not only efficient, but a good use of the equipment. I let the reversers do the work and the work well, but at no time am I suggesting rolling to the end just to do it. If the technique I use cause me to have to roll to the end, then I have to roll to the end. But some controller wanting me to exit at a place convienent for him is not something I am willing to do unless it can be accomplish within the boundaries of what I have just described. I'll help him anyway I can, but making a hasty exit just to do it is silly. Someone else mentioned what if I was the one that was having to go around. Ok, so I had to go around. So what? I can assure you that he'd much rather me do that than take a chance with his safety and that of his family. You guys think you are doing the boss a favor by being cowboys, when in reality, if he know what was going on up there, you'd be looking for work. If your boss is getting pissed off because you have to go around, then you are the one that should be looking for other work. Finally, as for standing on the brakes sooner (at a higher speed) is the worst thing you can do. I am going to assume that you know the faster you are going when you press the brakes, the more heat you are going to produce. So go on, use those brakes right after the mains hit as you are suggesting, and see what happens when you really need them. You might just FADE away right off the end.

Another point that F/O and others should consider is safety. Is rolling to the end safe? If you push the brakes a little harder and stop earlier on the runway, you will be in a much better position if there is a problem. Studies have shown that one of the biggest dangers to a jet airplane is high speed while on the ground (runway). If Hawker F/O is really looking to be conservative and safe, he should stand on those brakes a little harder and get his plane slowed to a safer speed sooner. Also, is it safe to sit on an active runway? When I call in #1 for takeoff, I'm ready to go. I don't want to waste any time sitting with my blind side to landing traffic.

Yes, son, slower is not always safer. If you can't move quickly when you need to, you might want to consider a different business.

Ace

 

[aeronautic1]

Just stopped by to see if there was any information on the Hobby crash. I was sad to see this thread denigrate into so much feldercarb. You guys really need to put down the keyboard and get outside for some sunshine and fresh aire.

 

[h25b]

...denigrate into so much feldercarb.

I have no idea what that means, but it sure sounds bad... I even tried looking it up.

The corporate board hasn't had this much spirited debate for quite a while. It was only a matter of time.

 

[erj-145mech]

I have no idea what that means, but it sure sounds bad... I even tried looking it up.

I think that its from the original TV series "Battlestar Galactica". Sort of a futuristic "OH Fudge".

 

[h25b]

I think that its from the original TV series "Battlestar Galactica". Sort of a futuristic "OH Fudge".

Battlestar Galactica ??? It sounds more like something Ward Cleaver would say...

 

[bigD]

We were due for some debate. We haven't had much action around here since the WSCoD thread!

 

[501261]

60 Knots: Reversers to Idle Deploy and 1st use of brakes
At this point and only at this point am I now going to be receptive to exiting instructions.

Sounds like you're way behind the power curve to me, that and the "chest thumping" of the "runway is mine".

You need to have your "exiting" planned BEFORE descent. What really screws ATC up is when you slow down just enough to miss the closest taxiway, then have to "taxi" to the next exit, and is a perfect example of bad planning.

It's real simple for the Hawker just look on the Jepp 10-9 page and see which runway exits are between 4000-6000' down the runway, figure out where the FBO is and soon enough you'll have a plan "A", "B" or "C" for exiting the runway, and when ATC asks if you can do plan "B" you're already thinking that way too. A little bit of situational awareness goes a long way!