Hippocrates all of them.... esp. Obama

[HA25]

Truth be told the American culture isn't a fit for European style socialism, I know this, but I would love to see us mature past the dychotimous black and white thinking of left and right for just a moment and do what works best. Clearly for me the "walmartization" of America isn't one of the strong points of American style free marketeering, though some might disagree and that's fine. The wealthy Chinese factory owners and American CEO's being but two.

 

[ksu_aviator]

Truth be told the American culture isn't a fit for European style socialism, I know this, but I would live to mature past the dychotimous black and white world of left and right for just a moment and so what works best. Clearly for me the "walmartization" of America isn't one of the strong points of American style free marketeering, though some might disagree and that's fine. The wealthy Chinese factory owners and American CEO's being but two.

I get it. Since you don't have a leg to stand on, you feel it is better to bash Americans for being too immature to get it.

Maybe you should say that about the Europeans. They just kicked out the socialists. They made a resounding statement in a near sweep of "right wing" candidates in the EU elections, blowing the socialist leader away by a 70% margin. The definative statement here was "this ain't working."

Look, it doesn't matter how enlightened you think you are. The facts remain; socialism fails every time (just give it time) and free markets have sustained, steady growth (when the government doesn't get involved).

 

[LJ45]

Our productivity has gone up through automation and technologies, not necessarily from harder working Americans.

 

[HA25]

I get it. Since you don't have a leg to stand on, you feel it is better to bash Americans for being too immature to get it.

Ops! You found me out. Uncle.

 

[JFReservist]

I just happen to take a more "Christian" view of what we all need to have, vs what we all "deserve" to have, based on the gifts we were born with.. for me it's a moral argument and it's why I'm a strong supporter of labor unions.

Here is an interesting read on the subject: http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/11/was_jesus_a_socialist_that_is.html

Ohhhhh, so you take the view that what we all need to have (I infer that by the 'Christian' view of need you are meaning a relationship with God through His only begotten Son, The Lord Jesus? Admitting that He - Jesus Christ - the way, the truth, and the life - and that no one comes to the Father except through Him -Jesus Christ - died for our sins, and that only through Him - Jesus Christ - upon taking His free gift of grace is our salvation guaranteed and reconcilliation with the Father assured) vs what we all deserve (of course I again assume that you are still taking the 'Christian' view and mean that we all deserve eternal seperation from the God of the Universe due to our sinful nature and rebellion against the One who created us)... Wow, I never figured you for that type of guy. Now where does the labor union come in again??? Oh yes, we were born to gift them or support their morals. No, wait. Sorry. What did that article say about who do you say Obama is?

And to think that me talking about inalienable rights from the God of Nature was going to peg your cringe-meter.

 

[HA25]

Ohhhhh, so you take the view that what we all need to have (I infer that by the 'Christian' view of need you are meaning a relationship with God through His only begotten Son, The Lord Jesus? Admitting that He - Jesus Christ - the way, the truth, and the life - and that no one comes to the Father except through Him -Jesus Christ - died for our sins, and that only through Him - Jesus Christ - upon taking His free gift of grace is our salvation guaranteed and reconcilliation with the Father assured) vs what we all deserve (of course I again assume that you are still taking the 'Christian' view and mean that we all deserve eternal seperation from the God of the Universe due to our sinful nature and rebellion against the One who created us)... Wow, I never figured you for that type of guy. Now where does the labor union come in again??? Oh yes, we were born to gift them or support their morals. No, wait. Sorry. What did that article say about who do you say Obama is?

And to think that me talking about inalienable rights from the God of Nature was going to peg your cringe-meter.

Now the company of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things which he possessed was his own, but they had everything in common. And with great power the apostles gave their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all. There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought hte proceeds of what was sold and laid it at the apostles' feet; and distribution was made to each as any had need. Thus JOseph who was surnamed by the apostles Barnabas (which means, Son of encouragement), a Levite, a native of Cyprus, sold a field which belonged to him, and brought the money and laid it at the apostles' feet.

But a man named Ananias with his wife Sapphira sold a piece of property, and with his wife's knowledge he kept back some of the proceeds, and brought only a part and laid it at the apostles' feet. But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it waws sold, was it not at your disposal? How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God." When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and died.


Acts 4:32-5:5

 

[HA25]

Our productivity has gone up through automation and technologies, not necessarily from harder working Americans.

http://www.epi.org/economic_snapshots/entry/webfeatures_snapshots_20050421/

 

[Nindiri]

Now the company of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things which he possessed was his own, but they had everything in common...

I note that this small socialist group was completely voluntary. Perhap President Obama could follow that model instead of imposing it on us by force?

 

[HA25]

I note that this small socialist group was completely voluntary. Perhap President Obama could follow that model instead of imposing it on us by force?

An imposed form of government is only imposed if you disagree with it.. the fact is, the majority of Americans voted for BO, so unless we can find that there was an error in the count, or his poll numbers drop below 50% (as with GW for most of his later years in office), I'd argue for his policies not to be carried out, would be the minority imposing on the majority.

 

[Nindiri]

Nah, you guys that want socialism can have your own little socialist commune, and leave the the rest of us alone. Just like the good people in your Biblical example.

 

[filejw]

Just to get this a bit closer to it original track. We all can buy a ticket on the shuttle and head down to NYC if we want. The President can't, not this one or the last one. I don't expect him to stop doing what he wants with what little time off he has, be it chop in wood in TX or seeing a play in NY. We haven't stopped living why should he.

 

[JFReservist]

An imposed form of government is only imposed if you disagree with it..

I'm sure that's just what the Tutsis thought... or the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto, perhaps the Christians burned alive for the delight of Nero's court.

I have really enjoyed this up until now. Truly you are scaring me. Our system of government is designed to be based on laws, not by fads or cults of personality. Your ability to post on this board was given to you as a gift by a MINORITY of brave men who gave up everything, be it wealth, status, family or life for the pursuit of liberty from an 'imposed form of government.' This government was designed to be accountable to the framework of the constitution, so that it would be limited in scope and power and remain checked by a willing citizenry. Your desire for the soothing embrace of a statist collective will lead to the velvet-lined chains of tyranny, but you will none the less be shackled.

the fact is, the majority of Americans voted for BO

No, they didn't. I will concede that the majority of Americans who voted elected BO, and he is the duly elected president. The rest of us trust that he stay within the framework of the constitution... which appears to be anathema to him. We do not hold elections in the US for King, messiah, or citzen of the world, or for cool and wow factors. We elected this man to be the POTUS, that he would faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and would to the best of his ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. There are confines to that office, which can be found namely in article two, section one of said constitution... It is your responsibility to hold him to his oath, and in your best interest to make sure that his power is checked and his agenda not overstep his lawful authority.

so unless we can find that there was an error in the count, or his poll numbers drop below 50% (as with GW for most of his later years in office), I'd argue for his policies not to be carried out, would be the minority imposing on the majority.

Again, we are not a country based on the principles of American Idol, we are a country of laws. You can't just make up stuff as you see fit and call it good, do you do that in the cockpit? I would think not.

Cheers

 

[JFReservist]

I note that this small socialist group was completely voluntary. Perhap President Obama could follow that model instead of imposing it on us by force?

Well said, although I would content that they weren't socialists... but it was VOLUNTARY

As for EPI.org "research for ideas on shared prosperity" - Go share your own prosperity, and quit trying to share mine. Who the he!! do you think you are?

 

[LJ45]

An imposed form of government is only imposed if you disagree with it.. the fact is, the majority of Americans voted for BO, so unless we can find that there was an error in the count, or his poll numbers drop below 50% (as with GW for most of his later years in office), I'd argue for his policies not to be carried out, would be the minority imposing on the majority.

He would not win if the election was held today knowing what he really stands for and only 20% of the country is Liberal. The rest of the votes were from people that were fooled by his smooth talking BS. Now that we see what is going on, things will change. The backlash is happing, wait and see !!!

 

[LJ45]

Just to get this a bit closer to it original track. We all can buy a ticket on the shuttle and head down to NYC if we want. The President can't, not this one or the last one. I don't expect him to stop doing what he wants with what little time off he has, be it chop in wood in TX or seeing a play in NY. We haven't stopped living why should he.

The point is: don't trash corporate aviation then jump on a 747 or GV, why is that point not understood. Don't trash my way of life and I will leave him to travel like the rest of the Presidents.
Do I need to type up the definition of Hypocrisy? Geeeezzzz

 

[HA25]

He would not win if the election was held today knowing what he really stands for and only 20% of the country is Liberal. The rest of the votes were from people that were fooled by his smooth talking BS. Now that we see what is going on, things will change. The backlash is happing, wait and see !!!

Odd, he's still showing that the majority approve of him to me?

http://www.gallup.com/poll/politics.aspx?CSTS=pollnav&to=POLL-Politics-News

 

[jet2work]

So you want to be a slacker, move to Europe

I myself am a fan and student of the "dismal science." and have read Smith and Keynes et al.

I see in your profile that you were both MIL/CIV. How is it that you can reconcile the situations in the former Warsaw bloc nations with your ideas of current western European socialism. The bill has not yet come due on Europe's social programs. I would suggest that you read P.J O'Rourke's book "Eat The Rich" if you want a view of what socialism and the accompanying corruption that comes with it brings to nations. Also check out John Lott's Freedomnomics.

I am reticent to personalize the argument here FMS (in part because you are a moderator and probably have access to my personal information), but your views since leaving the military, I can only imagine, have been shaped by the propaganda and brainwashing of airline labor unions. These are the same labor unions that are holding you down, yet somehow you have the illusion that they are protecting you. You can take all your education and experience and be tacked to the bottom of another airline's seniority list because of your union. If you gamble your career on the wrong airline you will end up a career FO.

I also took an oath to uphold and defend the constitution as you once did. That you now see fit to disparage our country leaves me shaking my head in disbelief. Do you honestly believe that European style socialism will be better for the U.S? European's are so sophisticated and so much more mature that they started the last two world wars and had a cold war that lasted over 40 years. More than 70 million people have been murdered there through warfare in the last century. The French still hate the Germans. The British still hate the French. Dutch speaking Belgians still hate French speaking Belgians. West Germans still harbor animosity towards East Germans and the drain it put on their economy. This is sophistication?

You made Mention of German Cars and French luxury goods. Great, How about French Cars, German Art and English Cuisine? You see, IMHO Europe doesn't have it all in one place. There are parts to like from each culture, but I for one would not trade my middle class American lifestyle for that of the average European.

Do I work harder than the average European? Probably yes. Am I happier than the average European Most likely yes. I work hard by choice, because I want nice things and to provide security for my family.

Let me close with a question for you. When you were obtaining your undergrad and MBA did you do just enough work to get a C in the class?
If not, then might I suggest there is still a little capitalist left in you . I'm guessing (by your well written posts) that you worked hard and got straight A's. Maybe you did this for economic reason's (to obtain a scholarship)? Maybe you did it because you have a sense of pride in doing the best job that you can. Well, in working hard to get a grade higher than a C you were screwing over all the other slackers in the class. Life, like college is graded on a Bell Curve. If you are happy in the middle getting a C don't disparage those working hard or talented enough to get straight A's.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_2_casualties

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties

 

[jet2work]

Yeah Socialism!

This story may be anecdotal, but it is funny and would probably be true if our colleges were not filled with socialist professors too afraid to pull a stunt like this.

http://www.snopes.com/college/exam/socialism.asp

Oh behave!

 

[HA25]

I myself am a fan and student of the "dismal science." and have read Smith and Keynes et al.

Good to hear, then you know that much of economics is inevitably tied in with sociology and psychology (the nature of man). This means that there can be more than one possible effective outcome, and absolutes rarely apply.

I see in your profile that you were both MIL/CIV. How is it that you can reconcile the situations in the former Warsaw bloc nations with your ideas of current western European socialism. The bill has not yet come due on Europe's social programs.

First off, there is no parallel or comparison between the EU nations and their economies (as well as non-EU Western Europe) and with the Soviet style communism which rained a dark curtain over freedom, both religious and economic with in the former soviet block. None what so ever, full stop.

Secondly, with regard to the "Bill".. I'd argue (and the economic data bares out that the average US citizen has a far larger debt, both personal and national than the citizen of the EU.

(now, pardon the source being European, but this is really worth a quick read.. trust me, feel free to research the date anywhere you like, it's quite factual, we're in far too much debt, and the Chinese own most of it)

http://www.taurillon.org/Europe-vs-USA-Whose-Economy-Wins

I would suggest that you read P.J O'Rourke's book "Eat The Rich" if you want a view of what socialism and the accompanying corruption that comes with it brings to nations. Also check out John Lott's Freedomnomics.

I rarely read ideologues, but I am quite familiar with his writings from back in his Rolling Stone days.. I simply am not a subscriber to civil libertarianism, neither on a social level or an economic level... man is simply too selfish, and this rubs my "Christian" senses the wrong way.

I am reticent to personalize the argument here FMS (in part because you are a moderator and probably have access to my personal information), but your views since leaving the military, I can only imagine, have been shaped by the propaganda and brainwashing of airline labor unions. These are the same labor unions that are holding you down, yet somehow you have the illusion that they are protecting you. You can take all your education and experience and be tacked to the bottom of another airline's seniority list because of your union. If you gamble your career on the wrong airline you will end up a career FO.

First off, my position as moderator means absolutely nothing unless you cross the line into insult and uncivil behavior against forum rules. I have neither access to, nor desire to view your personal data. However, be warned that if you report a post, I do get copy of your email address, but is the extent of my access to your data.

As for unions.. I am ambivalent on this topic. I strongly agree that as part of the needed counter balance to the ability of a manger to apply pressure on an employee (wage, productivity, etc), the employee needs as a balance, thru unity with his fellows the need to be able to apply equal counter pressure in order to gain what is best for him. With that said, the system that was originally set up by United Airlines pilots and evolved into ALPA is broken and we need a national seniority system, or to replace the union with a European style guild.

I also took an oath to uphold and defend the constitution as you once did. That you now see fit to disparage our country leaves me shaking my head in disbelief.

This merits emphasis as it's the closest thing to a personal attack in your otherwise cordial exchange..

Self criticism is a freedom I fought for, and consider the greatest of American virtues. The Soviets, and Chinese would never prosecute a citizen for standing up for his country and form of government, but they both have executed many for what I do.

Do you honestly believe that European style socialism will be better for the U.S? European's are so sophisticated and so much more mature that they started the last two world wars and had a cold war that lasted over 40 years. More than 70 million people have been murdered there through warfare in the last century. The French still hate the Germans. The British still hate the French. Dutch speaking Belgians still hate French speaking Belgians. West Germans still harbor animosity towards East Germans and the drain it put on their economy. This is sophistication?

All ancient history in todays fast moving world. I happen to STRONGLY believe (and you might get a kick out of this, seeing as how I disparage America).. that the US had its best days in the 1920s thru 1950's.. that "Golden Era" set us both culturally, and socially above the world, no ifs' ands or buts... Today, we're a far cry from that America, and the EU has (I argue) evolved to where we should have been, had we remained on this path. There was a time when GM made some of the best cars.. Today BMW or Porsche is not even comparable to a CadillacChadic or Chevy. The Spread of McDonnalds, Starbucks and Walmart has replaced the "mom and pop" dinner, coffee shop, and local grocery.. The EU hasn't quite thrown the small business man under the buss (yet).. They still codify thru statute that certain business will not be aloud (socialist? sure...)

You made Mention of German Cars and French luxury goods. Great, How about French Cars, German Art and English Cuisine? You see, IMHO Europe doesn't have it all in one place. There are parts to like from each culture, but I for one would not trade my middle class American lifestyle for that of the average European.

See above, but I don't meet a lot of Europeans who feel this way.. Not like the "old days" when the US a dream for most Europeans to migrate to. Today, most I meet (flying in and out of the rest of the world), are more than happy to remain "European".

Do I work harder than the average European? Probably yes. Am I happier than the average European Most likely yes. I work hard by choice, because I want nice things and to provide security for my family.

For me, what provides security for my family is seeing me.. Having quality time together. Time to go on long family trips, and time to see my little ones grow.. Not 70 hour work weeks, and the push for more and more from the working man in order to make his boss richer and richer..

Let me close with a question for you. When you were obtaining your undergrad and MBA did you do just enough work to get a C in the class?
If not, then might I suggest there is still a little capitalist left in you . I'm guessing (by your well written posts) that you worked hard and got straight A's. Maybe you did this for economic reason's (to obtain a scholarship)? Maybe you did it because you have a sense of pride in doing the best job that you can. Well, in working hard to get a grade higher than a C you were screwing over all the other slackers in the class. Life, like college is graded on a Bell Curve. If you are happy in the middle getting a C don't disparage those working hard or talented enough to get straight A's.

I was a 3.1 GPA student, I didn't apply myself as much as I could have, but I didn't slack.. My greatest mistake was not taking my education and doing something with it.. My greatest mistake was to pursue a love of flying.. But in the end, I'm a lot better off than the starving man in Uganda, or the dying husband who's regrets not spending more time with his wife and kids as he faces death.


I also like the idea that a man, born with fewer gifts than I, can live in a wealthy country that will take care of him.. or a disabled vet will have a pension to look after him in his old age.. I like the social safety net, it's worth my tax dollar.

 

[jet2work]

Are you by chance familiar with Canada?

I was a 3.1 GPA student, I didn't apply myself as much as I could have, but I didn't slack.. My greatest mistake was not taking my education and doing something with it.. My greatest mistake was to pursue a love of flying.. But in the end, I'm a lot better off than the starving man in Uganda, or the dying husband who's regrets not spending more time with his wife and kids as he faces death.


I also like the idea that a man, born with fewer gifts than I, can live in a wealthy country that will take care of him.. or a disabled vet will have a pension to look after him in his old age.. I like the social safety net, it's worth my tax dollar.

Excellent post. I see your points, but my issue with them is that , as you mention there is the human nature component that makes socialism a pipe dream.

For Socialism to work it requires someone to work hard while someone else takes it easy in order for everyone to have an "Average Lifestyle."

You admit that you did not apply yourself fully in college. Why is that? Was the reward not worth the extra effort. After all you could have graduated with a 2.0. The problem as I see it with socialism is that no one will fully apply themselves when we all end up with roughly the same lifestyle.

Look at how much innovation has come out of the US. Who in their right mind would toil for hours in a lab or in their basement developing something to fight disease or make life easier their fellow man when they stand not to profit from it? In Europe could a college dropout have started a company in his garage and go on to become the world's weathiest person and start a charitable foundation to help children?

A look back at our welfare system pre 1994 should give you a good idea of what socialism will inspire in this country.

If Europe and its postwar troubles are ancient history, then that is thanks in large part to the United States effort to rebuild them after the war in which we saved them. Don't misunderstand me. I like Europe alot. I just don't want our country to become like theirs. I can do without the Government worker attitude, bureaucracy, corruption, cronyism and waste. These things are already bad enough in our current system (Chicago politics comes to mind).:erm:

Margaret Thatcher said it perfectly when she said "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."

The system that you admire aready exists. It's called Canada and it's a days drive north of here. As a kid, I spent most of my summers there playing hockey. It's beautiful. But................