Hippocrates all of them.... esp. Obama

[HA25]

He would not win if the election was held today knowing what he really stands for and only 20% of the country is Liberal. The rest of the votes were from people that were fooled by his smooth talking BS. Now that we see what is going on, things will change. The backlash is happing, wait and see !!!

Odd, he's still showing that the majority approve of him to me?

http://www.gallup.com/poll/politics.aspx?CSTS=pollnav&to=POLL-Politics-News

 

[jet2work]

So you want to be a slacker, move to Europe

I myself am a fan and student of the "dismal science." and have read Smith and Keynes et al.

I see in your profile that you were both MIL/CIV. How is it that you can reconcile the situations in the former Warsaw bloc nations with your ideas of current western European socialism. The bill has not yet come due on Europe's social programs. I would suggest that you read P.J O'Rourke's book "Eat The Rich" if you want a view of what socialism and the accompanying corruption that comes with it brings to nations. Also check out John Lott's Freedomnomics.

I am reticent to personalize the argument here FMS (in part because you are a moderator and probably have access to my personal information), but your views since leaving the military, I can only imagine, have been shaped by the propaganda and brainwashing of airline labor unions. These are the same labor unions that are holding you down, yet somehow you have the illusion that they are protecting you. You can take all your education and experience and be tacked to the bottom of another airline's seniority list because of your union. If you gamble your career on the wrong airline you will end up a career FO.

I also took an oath to uphold and defend the constitution as you once did. That you now see fit to disparage our country leaves me shaking my head in disbelief. Do you honestly believe that European style socialism will be better for the U.S? European's are so sophisticated and so much more mature that they started the last two world wars and had a cold war that lasted over 40 years. More than 70 million people have been murdered there through warfare in the last century. The French still hate the Germans. The British still hate the French. Dutch speaking Belgians still hate French speaking Belgians. West Germans still harbor animosity towards East Germans and the drain it put on their economy. This is sophistication?

You made Mention of German Cars and French luxury goods. Great, How about French Cars, German Art and English Cuisine? You see, IMHO Europe doesn't have it all in one place. There are parts to like from each culture, but I for one would not trade my middle class American lifestyle for that of the average European.

Do I work harder than the average European? Probably yes. Am I happier than the average European Most likely yes. I work hard by choice, because I want nice things and to provide security for my family.

Let me close with a question for you. When you were obtaining your undergrad and MBA did you do just enough work to get a C in the class?
If not, then might I suggest there is still a little capitalist left in you . I'm guessing (by your well written posts) that you worked hard and got straight A's. Maybe you did this for economic reason's (to obtain a scholarship)? Maybe you did it because you have a sense of pride in doing the best job that you can. Well, in working hard to get a grade higher than a C you were screwing over all the other slackers in the class. Life, like college is graded on a Bell Curve. If you are happy in the middle getting a C don't disparage those working hard or talented enough to get straight A's.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_2_casualties

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties

 

[jet2work]

Yeah Socialism!

This story may be anecdotal, but it is funny and would probably be true if our colleges were not filled with socialist professors too afraid to pull a stunt like this.

http://www.snopes.com/college/exam/socialism.asp

Oh behave!

 

[HA25]

I myself am a fan and student of the "dismal science." and have read Smith and Keynes et al.

Good to hear, then you know that much of economics is inevitably tied in with sociology and psychology (the nature of man). This means that there can be more than one possible effective outcome, and absolutes rarely apply.

I see in your profile that you were both MIL/CIV. How is it that you can reconcile the situations in the former Warsaw bloc nations with your ideas of current western European socialism. The bill has not yet come due on Europe's social programs.

First off, there is no parallel or comparison between the EU nations and their economies (as well as non-EU Western Europe) and with the Soviet style communism which rained a dark curtain over freedom, both religious and economic with in the former soviet block. None what so ever, full stop.

Secondly, with regard to the "Bill".. I'd argue (and the economic data bares out that the average US citizen has a far larger debt, both personal and national than the citizen of the EU.

(now, pardon the source being European, but this is really worth a quick read.. trust me, feel free to research the date anywhere you like, it's quite factual, we're in far too much debt, and the Chinese own most of it)

http://www.taurillon.org/Europe-vs-USA-Whose-Economy-Wins

I would suggest that you read P.J O'Rourke's book "Eat The Rich" if you want a view of what socialism and the accompanying corruption that comes with it brings to nations. Also check out John Lott's Freedomnomics.

I rarely read ideologues, but I am quite familiar with his writings from back in his Rolling Stone days.. I simply am not a subscriber to civil libertarianism, neither on a social level or an economic level... man is simply too selfish, and this rubs my "Christian" senses the wrong way.

I am reticent to personalize the argument here FMS (in part because you are a moderator and probably have access to my personal information), but your views since leaving the military, I can only imagine, have been shaped by the propaganda and brainwashing of airline labor unions. These are the same labor unions that are holding you down, yet somehow you have the illusion that they are protecting you. You can take all your education and experience and be tacked to the bottom of another airline's seniority list because of your union. If you gamble your career on the wrong airline you will end up a career FO.

First off, my position as moderator means absolutely nothing unless you cross the line into insult and uncivil behavior against forum rules. I have neither access to, nor desire to view your personal data. However, be warned that if you report a post, I do get copy of your email address, but is the extent of my access to your data.

As for unions.. I am ambivalent on this topic. I strongly agree that as part of the needed counter balance to the ability of a manger to apply pressure on an employee (wage, productivity, etc), the employee needs as a balance, thru unity with his fellows the need to be able to apply equal counter pressure in order to gain what is best for him. With that said, the system that was originally set up by United Airlines pilots and evolved into ALPA is broken and we need a national seniority system, or to replace the union with a European style guild.

I also took an oath to uphold and defend the constitution as you once did. That you now see fit to disparage our country leaves me shaking my head in disbelief.

This merits emphasis as it's the closest thing to a personal attack in your otherwise cordial exchange..

Self criticism is a freedom I fought for, and consider the greatest of American virtues. The Soviets, and Chinese would never prosecute a citizen for standing up for his country and form of government, but they both have executed many for what I do.

Do you honestly believe that European style socialism will be better for the U.S? European's are so sophisticated and so much more mature that they started the last two world wars and had a cold war that lasted over 40 years. More than 70 million people have been murdered there through warfare in the last century. The French still hate the Germans. The British still hate the French. Dutch speaking Belgians still hate French speaking Belgians. West Germans still harbor animosity towards East Germans and the drain it put on their economy. This is sophistication?

All ancient history in todays fast moving world. I happen to STRONGLY believe (and you might get a kick out of this, seeing as how I disparage America).. that the US had its best days in the 1920s thru 1950's.. that "Golden Era" set us both culturally, and socially above the world, no ifs' ands or buts... Today, we're a far cry from that America, and the EU has (I argue) evolved to where we should have been, had we remained on this path. There was a time when GM made some of the best cars.. Today BMW or Porsche is not even comparable to a CadillacChadic or Chevy. The Spread of McDonnalds, Starbucks and Walmart has replaced the "mom and pop" dinner, coffee shop, and local grocery.. The EU hasn't quite thrown the small business man under the buss (yet).. They still codify thru statute that certain business will not be aloud (socialist? sure...)

You made Mention of German Cars and French luxury goods. Great, How about French Cars, German Art and English Cuisine? You see, IMHO Europe doesn't have it all in one place. There are parts to like from each culture, but I for one would not trade my middle class American lifestyle for that of the average European.

See above, but I don't meet a lot of Europeans who feel this way.. Not like the "old days" when the US a dream for most Europeans to migrate to. Today, most I meet (flying in and out of the rest of the world), are more than happy to remain "European".

Do I work harder than the average European? Probably yes. Am I happier than the average European Most likely yes. I work hard by choice, because I want nice things and to provide security for my family.

For me, what provides security for my family is seeing me.. Having quality time together. Time to go on long family trips, and time to see my little ones grow.. Not 70 hour work weeks, and the push for more and more from the working man in order to make his boss richer and richer..

Let me close with a question for you. When you were obtaining your undergrad and MBA did you do just enough work to get a C in the class?
If not, then might I suggest there is still a little capitalist left in you . I'm guessing (by your well written posts) that you worked hard and got straight A's. Maybe you did this for economic reason's (to obtain a scholarship)? Maybe you did it because you have a sense of pride in doing the best job that you can. Well, in working hard to get a grade higher than a C you were screwing over all the other slackers in the class. Life, like college is graded on a Bell Curve. If you are happy in the middle getting a C don't disparage those working hard or talented enough to get straight A's.

I was a 3.1 GPA student, I didn't apply myself as much as I could have, but I didn't slack.. My greatest mistake was not taking my education and doing something with it.. My greatest mistake was to pursue a love of flying.. But in the end, I'm a lot better off than the starving man in Uganda, or the dying husband who's regrets not spending more time with his wife and kids as he faces death.


I also like the idea that a man, born with fewer gifts than I, can live in a wealthy country that will take care of him.. or a disabled vet will have a pension to look after him in his old age.. I like the social safety net, it's worth my tax dollar.

 

[jet2work]

Are you by chance familiar with Canada?

I was a 3.1 GPA student, I didn't apply myself as much as I could have, but I didn't slack.. My greatest mistake was not taking my education and doing something with it.. My greatest mistake was to pursue a love of flying.. But in the end, I'm a lot better off than the starving man in Uganda, or the dying husband who's regrets not spending more time with his wife and kids as he faces death.


I also like the idea that a man, born with fewer gifts than I, can live in a wealthy country that will take care of him.. or a disabled vet will have a pension to look after him in his old age.. I like the social safety net, it's worth my tax dollar.

Excellent post. I see your points, but my issue with them is that , as you mention there is the human nature component that makes socialism a pipe dream.

For Socialism to work it requires someone to work hard while someone else takes it easy in order for everyone to have an "Average Lifestyle."

You admit that you did not apply yourself fully in college. Why is that? Was the reward not worth the extra effort. After all you could have graduated with a 2.0. The problem as I see it with socialism is that no one will fully apply themselves when we all end up with roughly the same lifestyle.

Look at how much innovation has come out of the US. Who in their right mind would toil for hours in a lab or in their basement developing something to fight disease or make life easier their fellow man when they stand not to profit from it? In Europe could a college dropout have started a company in his garage and go on to become the world's weathiest person and start a charitable foundation to help children?

A look back at our welfare system pre 1994 should give you a good idea of what socialism will inspire in this country.

If Europe and its postwar troubles are ancient history, then that is thanks in large part to the United States effort to rebuild them after the war in which we saved them. Don't misunderstand me. I like Europe alot. I just don't want our country to become like theirs. I can do without the Government worker attitude, bureaucracy, corruption, cronyism and waste. These things are already bad enough in our current system (Chicago politics comes to mind).:erm:

Margaret Thatcher said it perfectly when she said "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."

The system that you admire aready exists. It's called Canada and it's a days drive north of here. As a kid, I spent most of my summers there playing hockey. It's beautiful. But................

 

[HA25]

Nobody isn't thankful for much of the US's historical contributions.. I for one would dare say, baring Slavery and Segregation (something no unique to the US), there is little I have criticism of in our country prior to the late 1970's.. but something happened, and I can't blame it on one sources (maybe the 60's counterculture boomers turned into Yuppies or something) and the idea of doing what's right, and thinking long term was replaced with doing what "makes most money" and doing it short term.. We replaced the small business with the superstore.. the American factory with the Asian factory... and sold off (for the purposes of getting rich quickly by a handful of wall street types and CEO's) the infrastructure of our nation all under the guise of "Free markets"

Well, the protectionist Europeans held back quite a bit more (even though, thru economic pressure mainly from us, they too had to shift into a more free system) and retained quite a bit more of their manufacturing base.

Maybe I'm just old school (a true conservative, not a libertarian) and just see the today going thru what the British Empire went thru in the later 19's century... we're on our way to being a has bin, with China fast approaching (with their long view, and patient culture), and the EU someplace in the middle... But the American Quarter to Quarter market system which compensates CEO's for how much the share is worth "today" and not how viable the company is in the next decade is broken in my view. Few CEO's (usually they're founders) break this mold.. A son of of another Muslim (Syrian) migrant and white woman comes to mind... (not Obama).. but Steve Jobs.. and his vision for Apple. That's not found in todays revolving door CEO suite much.

Look at the airline sector.. since deregulation, we've lost the Juan Trippes, Bob Six, and Howard Hughes types and replaced them with Tilton's and Mullins, bean counters that would be just as happy to run a Travel Agency and farm out their flying to the lowest bidder in the name of free markets..

For me there is a balance, I neither worship at the alter fo the free market, nor do I want to turn all private property into public.. there is always a balance, it's the ying and yang, it's the atom, and it's the nature of man.

PS. My grades are as a result of a lot of parties and girlfriends.. combined with parents that pushed me.. I can't fault the back inner city kid who doesn't go to college if he doesn't have a father or mother to push him.. because I'd be no better off if mine weren't there.

 

[jet2work]

Socialism is nothing but a Ponzi Scheme

OK I read the article. It had some good information, but I kept thinking that It was like comparing two golfers with different handicaps, and proclaiming the guy with the higher score the better golfer. In the comment section of that article I came across this link. It is also a European website, but they make the point that Europe is facing trouble because of its aging population and low birth rate. The quote is below the link.

http://www.eiu.com/site_info.asp?info_name=eiu_Cisco_Foresight_2020&rf=0

"Demographics. Population shifts will have a significant impact on economies, companies and customers. The favourable demographic profile of the US will help to spur growth; ageing populations in Europe will inhibit it. Industries will target more products and services at ageing populations, from investment advice to low-cost, functional cars. "

The report also mentions that China and India will be the fastest growing economies.

I am not a baby boomer, but I always feel like the "greatest generation" gave too much to the baby boomers. The boomers were the ones who started the "cultural revolution" and gave us such great social advances as free love, drug use, disease and social problems that go along with it (out of wedlock birth, abortion, aids and the resultant homeless, drug violence, divorce, etc). You yourself said that the pre baby boom years were the "Golden Age" in the US (and I agree).

Boomers have been in denial of their mortality and as such have failed to plan for retirement like our grandparents did. They have been too preocupied with Viagra and Botox, to worry about such trivialities as saving for a rainy day. Now that the party train has slowed to a crawl they are looking for someone else to buy the next round. How many post boomers are going to be saddled with caring for their aging parents who squandered away their savings? How many of those parents once had two homes, a boat, and bought a new car every three years??

The solution for boomers is to keep the party going. How do we do that. Give the government our bills. Let them pay for our medical expenses and housing and food. Who pays for it? Me, you, anyone elese who is still a productive member of society. What are the consequennces? Our kids will find it cost prohibitive (like it is in Europe ) to have more than 1 or 2 children. This results in a negive birth rate (like the EU currently has) and no one to pay for these programs long term. Once again I quote Maggie.

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."

I don't expect that I will ever see a penny of social security, yet I am forced to pay it month after month. Do I believe in taking care of widows and orphans? Absolutely.

On a closing note, In Europe it is quite clear that the Christian Church is dead. The only people who go to churches in Europe are tourists there to take pictures of the architecture. The reason? IMHO it is because the gov't has become the great benevolent safety net that the church is in this country.

Baby boomers have generally acted like spoiled brats and because of their numbers they have gotten and will continue to get their way right up until the day they die. Now that is the shortsightedness that I am worried about. While their parents worked hard and left an estate to their children, our parents are taking out reverse mortgages or worse yet buying bigger houses that they couldn't afford with interest only loans with the hope of flipping them after they appreciated.

What legacy will they leave me and my children and granchildren?? My guess is massive debt and civil unrest.

 

[HA25]

n

On a closing note, In Europe it is quite clear that the Christian Church is dead. The only people who go to churches in Europe are tourists there to take pictures of the architecture. The reason? IMHO it is because the gov't has become the great benevolent safety net that the church is in this country.n

If there is one place we can agree, it's the fact that Europe turing their back on their long history of Christian values, family, women staying home and raising children, etc.. is by far their worse fall, and sadly we're not very far behind them.

 

[JFReservist]

What do you really want?

Nobody isn't thankful for much of the US's historical contributions.. I for one would dare say, baring Slavery and Segregation (something no unique to the US), there is little I have criticism of in our country prior to the late 1970's.. but something happened, and I can't blame it on one sources (maybe the 60's counterculture boomers turned into Yuppies or something) and the idea of doing what's right, and thinking long term was replaced with doing what "makes most money" and doing it short term.. We replaced the small business with the superstore.. the American factory with the Asian factory... and sold off (for the purposes of getting rich quickly by a handful of wall street types and CEO's) the infrastructure of our nation all under the guise of "Free markets"

Well, the protectionist Europeans held back quite a bit more (even though, thru economic pressure mainly from us, they too had to shift into a more free system) and retained quite a bit more of their manufacturing base.

Maybe I'm just old school (a true conservative, not a libertarian) and just see the today going thru what the British Empire went thru in the later 19's century... we're on our way to being a has bin, with China fast approaching (with their long view, and patient culture), and the EU someplace in the middle... But the American Quarter to Quarter market system which compensates CEO's for how much the share is worth "today" and not how viable the company is in the next decade is broken in my view. Few CEO's (usually they're founders) break this mold.. A son of of another Muslim (Syrian) migrant and white woman comes to mind... (not Obama).. but Steve Jobs.. and his vision for Apple. That's not found in todays revolving door CEO suite much.

Look at the airline sector.. since deregulation, we've lost the Juan Trippes, Bob Six, and Howard Hughes types and replaced them with Tilton's and Mullins, bean counters that would be just as happy to run a Travel Agency and farm out their flying to the lowest bidder in the name of free markets..

For me there is a balance, I neither worship at the alter fo the free market, nor do I want to turn all private property into public.. there is always a balance, it's the ying and yang, it's the atom, and it's the nature of man.

PS. My grades are as a result of a lot of parties and girlfriends.. combined with parents that pushed me.. I can't fault the back inner city kid who doesn't go to college if he doesn't have a father or mother to push him.. because I'd be no better off if mine weren't there.

Overall, I'd have to say that I agree with most of your points, but I don't think that European socialism is the answer. My Christian sensibilities abhor the collectivist/statist system and the corporate greed that we have seen in the past 20-30 years. Mankind yearns for liberty, so that we may fully realize the God given potential we are born with. My aversion to socialism/progressiveism et al is moral... government has become their god, and secular humanism its acceptable religion. I would rather not see that happen here, as there is hope in neither. Only in liberty can we fully strive to be successful, and compassionate.

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
-- C.S. Lewis

Cheers

 

[mzaharis]

If you subscribe to the Economist magazine, here is an interesting article on the "Swedish" system - neither universally positive or negative. Points out shortcomings of the Swedish system that the Sweden-defenders tend to gloss over.

http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=E1_SRRDTSP