Hippocrates all of them.... esp. Obama

[HawkerF/O]

Now it looks like Michelle and the kids are winging off to Paris to meet the Prez after his mid-east trip. Supposedly they are doing something to commemorate the 65th anniversary of landing at Normandy.

That's right, Girls are out of school, so they get to travel the world on military jets, not corporate jets. I'm looking forward to seeing them get on and off of AF1 throughout the summer in countries they've not yet visited. Setting a great example for other kids to look up to. Money well spent. Get used to it.

 

[JFReservist]

I think the whole argument went over your head..

You're right, I'm not 'evolved' enough to bandy philosophies with someone of your intellectual prowess.

it's not about lazy..

Don't believe I mentioned that.

Would you deny that Germany builds the best cars?

They don't make a very good truck...

or France, some of the best luxury goods?

and the best caviar in the world came from outside of a Gulag back in the day...

They're able to make some of the finest things in the world, grow huge corporations and yet keep their workweek to 35-37 hours and provide a complete cradle to grave safety net for their entire population.

And their governments have tacitly endorsed "boss-napping" as an acceptable labor policy.

Funny, we American's make some of the finest things in the world, but our businesses are hampered by the obstructionist actions of our government.

But that's fine, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I love visiting Europe, and I think it's beautiful. French cuisine is wonderful, and as a good looking fat kid, I know good food. The wine is okay, but I prefer a shiraz grenache or a malbec. It really is a nice place to visit, but I don't want to live there. I don't like their policies, and I sure as he!! don't want to enact the cradle to grave "safety net" here. What you see as a safety net, I see as some statist bureaucrat telling me what I can and can't do because I have ceded them power to my right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. Those are my inalienable rights... not given to me by the government, but by the God of nature (or apes and crawfish if you beleive in that stuff, which you have the right to).

Our system of government is decidedly different than that of any other, and through our individual pursuit of life, liberty and happiness we have realized the greatest advancement of any civilization ever both socially and technologically in such a limited time-frame. Have we had some growing pains along the way, you bet your a$$. But we have also fought to bring liberty and self determination to many people, including those in Europe.

If you don't like our little system over here, that is fine, but you absolutely do not have the right to take from me my inalienable rights.

Cheers.

 

[ksu_aviator]

I think the whole argument went over your head.. it's not about lazy.. Would you deny that Germany builds the best cars? or France, some of the best luxury goods? They're able to make some of the finest things in the world, grow huge corporations and yet keep their workweek to 35-37 hours and provide a complete cradle to grave safety net for their entire population.

But that's fine, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

But who where they selling to? THE US. They forced their citizens to pay outrageous taxes on to subsidize goods that they exported (the largest buyer being the US) at a deflated value and when the US had economic problems, their countries collapsed. They can't sustain their style of government UNLESS there is a free market system to sell to.

 

[HA25]

They can't sustain their style of government UNLESS there is a free market system to sell to.

Just like the we do with the Chinese.

But wait.. What if we all just played by the same set of economic rules? Now there's a novel idea. Imagine the German Engineer who's got 6 weeks vacation, and a 35 hour workweek competing with an American with the same benefits, and *Gasp* a Chinese ...

 

[ksu_aviator]

Just like the we do with the Chinese.

But wait.. What if we all just played by the same set of economic rules? Now there's a novel idea. Imagine the German Engineer who's got 6 weeks vacation, and a 35 hour workweek competing with an American with the same benefits, and *Gasp* a Chinese ...

You keep looking at the stuff people give you...you don't look at the stuff they could earn.

We all play by the same economic rules. The rules are derived from the natural behaviour of man. It does not matter how many regulations you propose, or what contrived economic system you worship, everyone...every system is subject to the principals and laws of the free market.

So I ask you, what gives you the moral authority to dictate to free people how and when they work, who they hire and how much they earn?

 

[HA25]

You keep looking at the stuff people give you...you don't look at the stuff they could earn.

We all play by the same economic rules. The rules are derived from the natural behaviour of man. It does not matter how many regulations you propose, or what contrived economic system you worship, everyone...every system is subject to the principals and laws of the free market.

So I ask you, what gives you the moral authority to dictate to free people how and when they work, who they hire and how much they earn?

I've read Adam Smith, and J.M. Kaynes, and Milton Freedman. my MBA is in Finance and my BA in Economics.. I have a good understanding of what you're trying to say.. but the fact is, regulations have a MAJOR effect on economic output. The Productivity of American workers between the mid 70's and 2000 has gone up more than any other worker in the world, while his salary has stagnated, this is data that's not in dispute. The relative productivity increase to salary in the EU is far more in line. The US has a market that is regulated in favor of the firm and not the worker. The EU, is the opposite, which is to say the worker and not the firm... So if the two have to compete (The EU and US worker), the US worker will always produce more output, which benefits mainly the firms in the US... but does this really "morally" benefit the life of the worker if his salary is stalled at the same level or below the EU worker (and even after taxes and benefits, he's got less to spend?).. We've got far more credit card debt than the EU workers for a reason... you think our taxes are low, but low taxes don't do you any good if you have to pay for everything like we do, and at the same time save for your retirement.. It's not in dispute that our debt/savings rate is far out of line with the rest of the developed world, why do you that is? Truth is, the only person who wins in the US Economic model is the CEO.. This isn't free markets, this is a market that's stacked in favor of the boss... And this is why I'd like to see a bit more "Regulation".. I'd love to start with more airline regulation first!

You ask what give me any moral right? Nobody.. I don't have this right, I'm not the Dictator of the US, I'm just a voter.

Lets not bring China into this, because it would seriously complicate my argument being that they're the closest thing to what you argue for, which is a pure free market economy in favor of the firm.. 6 day work weeks, 12 hour work days, no minimum wage, no employer benefits laws, etc..

 

[ksu_aviator]

I've read Adam Smith, and J.M. Kaynes, and Milton Freedman. my MBA is in Finance and my BA in Economics.. I have a good understanding of what you're trying to say.. but the fact is, regulations have a MAJOR effect on economic output.

But not a good effect. Take banking regulations for example. Our government forced banks into loans that they knew wouldn't be repaid. So the banks hid those loans in tons of paperwork and sold them as the next great thing. It is a perfect example of how regulation creates the problems instead of solving them.

Regulations must be limited to preventing and punishing deceitful and damaging practices. Anything above and beyond that limits the economy.

The Productivity of American workers between the mid 70's and 2000 has gone up more than any other worker in the world, while his salary has stagnated, this is data that's not in dispute. The relative productivity increase to salary in the EU is far more in line.

That is a flat out lie. The only percentile that has stagnated is the bottom 20%. Gee...now...what is the bottom 20% eligible for? Could it be social programs? Why, yes it is. The remaining 80% has seen a minimum of 25% increase in household income since 1970. So, let's see...if the only group that is stagnating is the group getting financial assistance and the groups that don't get assistance are growing along with the economy...what can we conclude? The government programs are the problem...not the solution.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._States_Income_Distribution_1947-2007.svg.png

The US has a market that is regulated in favor of the firm and not the worker. The EU, is the opposite, which is to say the worker and not the firm... So if the two have to compete (The EU and US worker), the US worker will always produce more output, which benefits mainly the firms in the US... but does this really "morally" benefit the life of the worker if his salary is stalled at the same level or below the EU worker (and even after taxes and benefits, he's got less to spend?)..

No, the person that produces more, earns more. But your class warfare rhetoric is noted.

Look....no matter how you cut it, the consumer pays for everything. If you charge corporate taxes...the consumer pays. If you charge personal taxes....the consumer pays. The fact is, whether you have a socialistic system or a free market system, the end consumer is the payer.

Government is historically the most wasteful and least efficient supplier of any goods or service. Even if they don't do it for a profit, they are generally underbid by entrepreneurs. Ask Russians, Chinese or Mexicans. All of their governments failed to provide services. It wasn't until China began to deregulate that they began the growth they are seeing today. Russia was in the same boat. Mexico just needs to follow suite.

We've got far more credit card debt than the EU workers for a reason... you think our taxes are low, but low taxes don't do you any good if you have to pay for everything like we do, and at the same time save for your retirement.. It's not in dispute that our debt/savings rate is far out of line with the rest of the developed world, why do you that is? Truth is, the only person who wins in the US Economic model is the CEO.. This isn't free markets, this is a market that's stacked in favor of the boss... And this is why I'd like to see a bit more "Regulation".. I'd love to start with more airline regulation first!

That is the most convoluted argument. We have less money because we pay less in taxes? That is absolutely retarded! Show me the poor Europeans that have 2 cars with upgraded rims and speakers and a 52" HD tv? Because our "poor" have all of that, on average.

You ask what give me any moral right? Nobody.. I don't have this right, I'm not the Dictator of the US, I'm just a voter.

Dictating through voting is still dictating.

Lets not bring China into this, because it would seriously complicate my argument being that they're the closest thing to what you argue for, which is a pure free market economy in favor of the firm.. 6 day work weeks, 12 hour work days, no minimum wage, no employer benefits laws, etc..

You just can't stay away from the class envy/warfare, can you?

 

[HA25]

Class warfare and socialism are favorite attack phrases, I appreciate your use of those to quell my argument.. but that fact is, I don't run from them.. I think that, all humans being selfish beings by nature, class warfare is a fact of life.. Those who have, generally like to keep and get more.. There is only so much economic growth that can naturally occur with the resources we have, so the only way to gain wealth is to squeeze more and more productivity from the workers... this isn't class warfare, its' life.. I just happen to take a more "Christian" view of what we all need to have, vs what we all "deserve" to have, based on the gifts we were born with.. for me it's a moral argument and it's why I'm a strong supporter of labor unions.

Here is an interesting read on the subject: http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/11/was_jesus_a_socialist_that_is.html

 

[BoilerUP]

I believe as well in giving people what they "need".

Problem is society at large is so spoiled and entitled that they think they "need" a hell of a lot more than they really do "need" in order to live.

FMS, I'm torn on your line of thinking...it is reasonable to a point, but sounds a bit too Atlas Shrugged for my self-sufficient taste.

 

[ksu_aviator]

Class warfare and socialism are favorite attack phrases, I appreciate your use of those to quell my argument.. but that fact is, I don't run from them.. I think that, all humans being selfish beings by nature, class warfare is a fact of life..

...but not a fact of government. Government is responsible for maintaining a level playing field...not an equal score.

Those who have, generally like to keep and get more.. There is only so much economic growth that can naturally occur with the resources we have, so the only way to gain wealth is to squeeze more and more productivity from the workers... this isn't class warfare, its' life..

It is b.s. You try to deflect the term class warfare, but if you call a turd by any other name, it still stinks.

I just happen to take a more "Christian" view of what we all need to have, vs what we all "deserve" to have, based on the gifts we were born with.. for me it's a moral argument and it's why I'm a strong supporter of labor unions.

The "Christian" view is to forcibly remove possessions from one group to give to another? Some how I missed the part where Jesus stole from Peter to pay Paul.

Here is an interesting read on the subject: http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/11/was_jesus_a_socialist_that_is.html

Wow...what a poorly written article. The thesis, the conclusion and the supporting evidence don't coincide. Jesus never condoned the theft of money from the populous to give to the few. He did, however, say that each must treat the least as if they are God. That is an individual action that must be taken, not a government action that should be taken.